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[Dean_the_Young]

RazorrX wrote...

According to the Chantry Law - and a law that every ruler in every chantry occupied land holds to

Except that this isn't true. Exceptions do exist, especially an exceptional circumstances. Kirkwall is one such.

Laws do not inherently reflect reality. The ability (and willingness) to enforce laws is what matters, not the laws themselves.

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...


In Act 3, once you're Champion of Kirkwall, it actually works. In previous acts, it also works... until the Templars display a total lack of ability to see Merril working blatant blood magic three feet in front of their faces. Then it gets a bit weird.

Blame Cullen being a collossal moron.

[Naitaka]

RazorrX wrote...

According to the Chantry Law - and a law that every ruler in every chantry occupied land holds to: if you are a mage, no matter of birth, wealth, power, etc. you are to be turned over to the circle.

Magic is to serve man not rule over him.

This line means that if you are the son of the emperor of Orlais and have magic talent, you are taken to the circle and can not inherit land, title, etc. You are taken from your family forever.

This line means that when Alistair, the king of Ferelden asked for the circle to be free as he could not just do it - was told NO.

This line is why Conner happened. Isolde knew that the moment it became known he had magic, templars would come to the uncle of the king of Ferelden and take his son away to the circle.

NO, Hawke is not protected by the Viscount, No his nobility does not protect him. The money was supposed to be used to pay off people who threatened to expose him (ie extortion). When you duel the Arishok the whole city knows you are a mage, you would be taken to the circle. You throw fireballs around saving Knight Captain Cullen and no mention of it.

The game flat out ignores the fact that you are a mage and are traveling with apostates. The ONLY time it is mentioned is near the end when Merideth says she knows what you are and has let you be free because you served her purpose.

So from a game play meets storyline perspective - you should not have been allowed to be a mage.

[In his Arishok voice] Exactly so

Evolution33 wrote...

I think a lot of people are making the cardinal sin of critiquing. Instead of asking why something is the way it is they are assuming it is a mistake. There is a reason for everything in the story. A lot of the nobles in Kirkwall are mages and walk around in their mage robes. They are hiding the best way they can, in plain site. The templers probably just assume nobility fines mage robes to be fashionable. I just started a mage playthrough but there have been a lot of instances where it is acknowledged that I am a mage. It also makes since that Hawke wouldn't exactly announce this to the Templars, and part of the story of DA2 isn't just that the mages are unhappy with Merideth, but many of the templars as well. Even in Act 1 there is a quest where the templar recruits believe there is some secret ritual going on. People like Sampson and Thrask end up being more sympathetic to mages, and it is possible they aren't the only templars that feel this way. Even Cullen looks sympathetic when compared to Merideth.

Wow, and I must have missed the Detect Magic spell that allow you deduce that random Noble A walking down the street is secretly a mage, my bad.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

I found it interesting that Cullen seems totally ignorant to your magehood prior to Act 3, but during Act 3, if Mage Hawke speaks to him, he calls you the only mage in Kirkwall who could speak to the Knight-Commander directly (which makes me wonder about the First Enchanter). Once you're the Champion, it so happens that every noble in the city owes you their life, making you "the power" in the city, even able to openly speak against Meredith without immediate repercussions. I can understand this (Anders, at one point, also says that you're an inspiration for other mages, with both freedom and prestige, a living example of what they want).

In Act 3, once you're Champion of Kirkwall, it actually works. In previous acts, it also works... until the Templars display a total lack of ability to see Merril working blatant blood magic three feet in front of their faces. Then it gets a bit weird.

Pre-expedition, Hawke was simply low-key. Another apostate hiding among many, and the few relevant people who did know had reasons not to turn you in.

Post-expedition, Hawke was too much of a hassle, and had the excuse of the Viscount's protection of sorts. Hawke wasn't lost in the crowd, but at the same time was an entirely disproportionate person to try and take despite not being a problem: for someone as politic-focused as Meredith, who needs the greater powers to address the greater threat of the overall blood mage/apostate crisis, Hawke is too big to take without cost, but too small to be concerned about.

Post-Champion, Hawke is simply powerful, and Meredith couldn't move directly if she wanted to, and she doesn't necessarily want to.

[Naitaka]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

According to the Chantry Law - and a law that every ruler in every chantry occupied land holds to

Except that this isn't true. Exceptions do exist, especially an exceptional circumstances. Kirkwall is one such.

Laws do not inherently reflect reality. The ability (and willingness) to enforce laws is what matters, not the laws themselves.

Again, evidence please. Find me a codex entry or a line dialogue that specifically said that the Templar allow such exceptions when you're throwing fireball and chain lightning left and right in Act 1 and 2.

You know what? Nevermind, this is pointless, it's turning into thread where everyone's an authority on DA lore and knows the game better than the writers. I'll leave you guys to writing your fan fiction, have fun.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[AntiChri5]

And you couldn't do that by being a Circle Mage sent to aide the Vicount on the Qunari issue why? Please, until you come up with solid evidence, there is NO argument here. I can say the Grand Cleric Elthina is a blood mage who secretly practice vile carnal acts with little elven boys but that doesn't make it true.

Because a circle mage would not have had sufficient contact with the qunari to have earned their respect.

[MajorJoeKickass]

Meredith cant just bring the Champion in - she would loose alot of the peoples support aswell when you are in act 2 being a noble and the viscounts right hand, note that there is already alot of support towards the mages both normal folk and templars, would she loose the rest of the peoples support she would have been released from command

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

And you couldn't do that by being a Circle Mage sent to aide the Vicount on the Qunari issue why? Please, until you come up with solid evidence, there is NO argument here. I can say the Grand Cleric Elthina is a blood mage who secretly practice vile carnal acts with little elven boys but that doesn't make it true.

Because a circle mage would not have had sufficient contact with the qunari to have earned their respect.

And the Grand Cleric also eat babies, I mean look at her purple eyeliner, she's obviously an agent of the Old God, Fen'harel and a small piece of Flemeth all roled into one, it's only logical!

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 02:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Naitaka wrote...


Again, evidence please. Find me a codex entry or a line dialogue that specifically said that the Templar allow such exceptions when you're throwing fireball and chain lightning left and right in Act 1 and 2.

The fact that you're throwing fireball and chain lighting left and right in Act 1 and 2, that it can be acknowledged, and are not taken in. The reasons vary by person: some people like you and wouldn't want to turn you in, others are held in check by mutual blackmail, and a number die.

We're blatantly told in the prologue that, if you know people, they can grease the palms and protect apostates with money. Even as late as Act 3, we know that there are Templars who let mages leave the Circle at night, and we ourselves see Thrask not really care (in exchange for mutual discretion). The entire narrative opening into Act 1 is that, with Status or Money or the favor of those connected, the Hawkes can avoid the wrath of the Templars.

In the context of Kirkwall, what we're told in regards to Kirkwall rather trumps what the system should work like everywhere else. Ferelden isn't Kirkwall. The Templars of Ferelden aren't like the Templars of Kirkwall. The situation, and unofficial systems, of Kirkwall aren't the same as in Ferelden.


And, well, since that's what the writers repeatedly wrote about... I can only assume they know what they're talking about.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 23 mars 2011 - 02:48 .

[Pandaman102]

Lithuasil wrote...

The "execution" that left to be desired, was the implementation of said story into gameplay. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement here. But you can't blame the writers for that. And the story in itself, as far as videogame writing goes, is only second to very very few stories, atleast from the twohundred or so games I've played in my lifetime.

How else are we supposed to experience the story than through how it was implemented? I see what the story was supposed to be, but when it's paced so poorly that the loss of the sibling(s) and mother barely register and characters keep pulling logical twists like a drunken bee to force the plot along, it's hard to see the gem from the dirt. If I can only judge a game's story by ignoring all the flaws in how it was presented then I would seriously have to look at every game I played in the past twenty years again before I can even begin to comment on whether or not it's the best, worst, or anything in between.

[mopotter]

I have no problem being human and being a mage. But yes, every time I freeze someone in front of a Templar I wonder if I'm using some kind of "you don't see this" spell at the same time, or using a jedi mind trick.

But there are a number of things that don't really make sense so I ignore it and hope for something better next time. It does make me wonder who, if anyone, is checking for consistency in their games right now.

[AlexXIV]

Because it is the story of one specific person who happens to be human. Being mage, especially bloodmage is really slobby implemented, but tbh if you think about what everything they would have to acknowledge if Hawke was a mage would probably require a second game for mage playthrough. I mean you talk about the templar, but talk about the Arishok. Qunari are usually not very fond of mages.

I laughed when Saarebas (qunari mage) said to my bloodmage hawke that her role would not be much different in the Qun ... yeah right, I can see that ...

[Pandaman102]

Evolution33 wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Evolution33 wrote...

I think a lot of people are making the cardinal sin of critiquing. Instead of asking why something is the way it is they are assuming it is a mistake. There is a reason for everything in the story.[...]

I don't know which is worse, that you think it's wrong to question inconsistencies or that you think writers can never do any wrong.

Strawman.

Perhaps, but I fail to see what makes critiquing a "cardinal sin" (yes, I know you're not being literal). There's a problem in the story that isn't explained, why should we assume there's a good reason and handwave it away without challenging it?

[Lithuasil]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

The "execution" that left to be desired, was the implementation of said story into gameplay. There's definitely a lot of room for improvement here. But you can't blame the writers for that. And the story in itself, as far as videogame writing goes, is only second to very very few stories, atleast from the twohundred or so games I've played in my lifetime.

How else are we supposed to experience the story than through how it was implemented? I see what the story was supposed to be, but when it's paced so poorly that the loss of the sibling(s) and mother barely register and characters keep pulling logical twists like a drunken bee to force the plot along, it's hard to see the gem from the dirt. If I can only judge a game's story by ignoring all the flaws in how it was presented then I would seriously have to look at every game I played in the past twenty years again before I can even begin to comment on whether or not it's the best, worst, or anything in between.

The story didn't have problems the way you describe them here - taking your family away makes perfect sense, as does the timing. Just as Orsino going "derp patchwork" makes sense, from a pure writing perspective, it just looses a lot of sense when they ran out of time for the finals, and had to recycle the same cutscene for two endings. That's not the writers fault however, it's the dev-team not being able to live up to the writers ambition. While this might reflect poorly on the Game as a whole, it's not blame to be put at the writers feet.

[u21]

This debate seems to have settled upon arguing details.
In the context of THIS game, as opposed to the overarching lore of Thedas, the writers did a fair job of answering the glaring question of a Mage Champion: how did this individual NOT get arrested in the seven years between stepping foot off the boat and saving the city from the Qunari?

The narrative (whether pro- or anti-templar) gives the Champion several key non-party NPC allies who would be in a position to either mask his/her identity from the authorities, or protect the Champion outright. By the time the Champion returns from the deep roads, it is believable that he/she is still free to operate outside the circle. But what about AFTER that?

As is stated in earlier posts, ALL LAWFUL MAGES MUST BE INCORPORATED INTO THE CIRCLE. No arguing this; it is one of the driving precepts of Dragon Age, period. In Origins, the Ferelden Circle experienced the tension between templar and mage, and that tension seeped into other realms of the game. In DA2, that tension exists, amplified by an oppressively-run Circle in Kirkwall. This powderkeg is exacerbated by a brewing 'civil war' WITHIN THE TEMPLAR ORDER. THIS is what no one seems to be mentioning.

On either side of this Templar civil war are templars (and mages, apostate and otherwise) who interact with the Champion and would find it in their best interest that the Champion remain outside the Order's conflict, and very importantly, ON THEIR SIDE. Consigned to the Circle, The Champion of mid-late Act 2 - mid Act 3 is of no use to anyone - even Meredith acknowledges this. And the Champion, during that period, becomes quite the potential asset for both Orsino and Meredith.

By the beginning of Act 3, the Champion is arguably THE most infuential person in all of Kirkwall. Everyone defers to the Champion and works for his/her endorsement. The Champion's legend would give pause to ANYONE thinking of FINALLY arresting the apostate; and with deep connections within the Templars, the Chantry, and the government, that pause would turn into a full stop for any fool who would try to clap irons on the person who defeated the Arishok.

The bottom line: the OP has a legitimate issue, but the story DOES answer it. I personally would have liked to have seen an incident or two where the Templars came looking for the Mage Champion...

But I'm cool with what I've got. Must wrap up my 3rd playthrough so I can put my full attention on ARRIVAL! :-)

[Naitaka]

You know, actually I found the perfect solution. If you're a blood mage, you just run around mind controlling everyone and erasing their memory. There's no reaction from the people because they don't even remember ever seeing you! Everything makes perfect sense, thank the Maker for blood magic!

[AlexXIV]

There is nothing to mask if you are mage and have so many enemies. I mean ... nobody ever noticed you are using magic in every fight? What is Aveline going to say? It just looked like magic but it wasn't? Just take when you help Cullen with the templar-abomination or mother petrice when you fight the templar who kidnapped the qunari. Either Hawke stands there and does nothing or ... he/she will use magic. Period.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[AntiChri5]

And the Grand Cleric also eat babies, I mean look at her purple eyeliner, she's obviously an agent of the Old God, Fen'harel and a small piece of Flemeth all roled into one, it's only logical!

You are so desperate to hate the plot of the game that you will reject every plausible explanation for percieved hole sbecause it was not outright stated. If it was outright stated it would mot be a hole.

All stories have holes that can be plausibly explained with a small amount of logic, such trains of thought are expected. Some things are obvious, and devoting exposition to cover holes when a few seconds of consideration will show you a plausible explanation is a pointless waste of time.

Stop looking for holes, and start thinking of explanations for them. You will find that, quite often, they are not holes.

[Parrk]

In the end of act 2 you meet meridith and she knows you are a mage because she sees you casting.

For all of act 3, Meredith is working to consolidate her power. You do that by crushing or avoiding dissent. Trying to arrest the person responsible for the life and freedom of every noble in the city. Trying to arrest you would have brought about open rebellion from the entire city.

Cullen knows you are a mage, but he also knows that you saved his life, and could easily have killed him yourself if he'd had tried to arrest you.

You foiled a plot that would have destroyed the entire order from the inside out. They owe you, and those who are people rather than db's know that.

The Viscount is in your corner.

The Arishok sees you as the only person in Kirkwall honorable enough to deal with. Prior to her sooper sword, the Qunari would have wiped the floor with the templars.

I think all of this combines to build a pretty strong case for why you are not arrested, and it is all in the game.

[AlexXIV]

I doubt the templar have a choice to let apostates go if they don't feel like arresting them. The orders are rather strict. Unless you become somewhat of a traitor to the order like Thrask.

[Tleining]

@ AlexXIV
so? The Law in our World is strict too, but people still have free will. Papa Hawke was smuggled out of Kirkwall by a Templar. And Meredith TELLS YOU that she is going to ignore your display of Magic for the time being (during the qunari invasion).

[u21]

AlexXIV wrote...

There is nothing to mask if you are mage and have so many enemies. I mean ... nobody ever noticed you are using magic in every fight? What is Aveline going to say? It just looked like magic but it wasn't? Just take when you help Cullen with the templar-abomination or mother petrice when you fight the templar who kidnapped the qunari. Either Hawke stands there and does nothing or ... he/she will use magic. Period.

Aveline? She knew Hawke a mage when she met him/her. Her husband was a templar. She befriends Hawke, not despite these facts, but BECAUSE of all they did together to survive. Without Hawke, Aveline would never have even gotten INTO Kirkwall.

As for Cullen, Patrice, and the rest of the 'Establishment;' don't get tripped up by the Templar vs. Mage thing. While that clearly exists here, in the Champion's Kirkwall, the competing conflicts are Templar vs. Templar and Chantry vs. nonbeleivers.

OF COURSE Aveline and Cullen and Patrice know they are dealing with an apostate. But these are people who find themselves in a position to try to use the Champion rather than make him/her submit to the Circle, exactly because of the competing conflicts.

[Pandaman102]

Lithuasil wrote...

The story didn't have problems the way you describe them here - taking your family away makes perfect sense, as does the timing. Just as Orsino going "derp patchwork" makes sense, from a pure writing perspective, it just looses a lot of sense when they ran out of time for the finals, and had to recycle the same cutscene for two endings. That's not the writers fault however, it's the dev-team not being able to live up to the writers ambition. While this might reflect poorly on the Game as a whole, it's not blame to be put at the writers feet.

I'll disagree about Orsino doing the "bloody cabbage patch kid" thing, especially after giving his rousing speech about surviving (granted I interpreted that as "don't let the Templars break you" and he turns around and breaks), but that aside I see what you mean. I don't place the blame solely on the writer's feet because I don't view games that way - or books, for that matter, there's always an editor involved who's deserving of just as much ire - but I do view it as a collaborative effort by the entire team. In DA2's case they had a good story but I felt they didn't tell a good story, if that makes any sense.

It's a bit like having Hannibal Lecter reading Dr. Seuss to my (imaginary) kids. Undoubtedly a classic kids story, doesn't mean the kids aren't going to be coming out of that with unsoiled sheets and a poor impression of Dr. Seuss. I probably wouludn't either, for that matter.

[Lithuasil]

Pandaman102 wrote...
I'll disagree about Orsino doing the "bloody cabbage patch kid" thing, especially after giving his rousing speech about surviving (granted I interpreted that as "don't let the Templars break you" and he turns around and breaks), but that aside I see what you mean. I don't place the blame solely on the writer's feet because I don't view games that way - or books, for that matter, there's always an editor involved who's deserving of just as much ire - but I do view it as a collaborative effort by the entire team. In DA2's case they had a good story but I felt they didn't tell a good story, if that makes any sense.

It's a bit like having Hannibal Lecter reading Dr. Seuss to my (imaginary) kids. Undoubtedly a classic kids story, doesn't mean the kids aren't going to be coming out of that with unsoiled sheets and a poor impression of Dr. Seuss. I probably wouludn't either, for that matter.

I really like that analogy

I can see where you're coming from - I just personally feel like it was an excellent story with not even inherently bad, but for the demands of the story, insufficient gameplay.

And Orsino had to go bonkers at that point - if he had not, there'd be a clearly visible "good" ending, siding with the poor oppressed mages against killcrazy meredith. In making both characters flawed and corrupted, the writers manage to not take sides. Having Orsino die bravely, or survive as the kind old elf he appears to be, would have thereby contradicted the entire point the storyline was trying to make so far.

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

And the Grand Cleric also eat babies, I mean look at her purple eyeliner, she's obviously an agent of the Old God, Fen'harel and a small piece of Flemeth all roled into one, it's only logical!

You are so desperate to hate the plot of the game that you will reject every plausible explanation for percieved hole sbecause it was not outright stated. If it was outright stated it would mot be a hole.

All stories have holes that can be plausibly explained with a small amount of logic, such trains of thought are expected. Some things are obvious, and devoting exposition to cover holes when a few seconds of consideration will show you a plausible explanation is a pointless waste of time.

Stop looking for holes, and start thinking of explanations for them. You will find that, quite often, they are not holes.

So let me get this straight, you're suggesting that we, as the audience, are expected to justify the inadequacy of the writers, pretend that there're no holes in the story and hail it as one of the best stories written for a video game? And all those writers who actually who put their time and effort into writing a well contrusted story are just pointlessly wasting their time? You know, my 5 year cousin can come up with stories that deserve the Nobel Prize in Literature if the judges to fill in everything themselves. I don't have to "hate" the story to recognize plot holes and lack of polish. Apparently, since you know the story better than the writers themselves, you obviously know me better than I know myself.