175 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

u21 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

There is nothing to mask if you are mage and have so many enemies. I mean ... nobody ever noticed you are using magic in every fight? What is Aveline going to say? It just looked like magic but it wasn't? Just take when you help Cullen with the templar-abomination or mother petrice when you fight the templar who kidnapped the qunari. Either Hawke stands there and does nothing or ... he/she will use magic. Period.

Aveline? She knew Hawke a mage when she met him/her. Her husband was a templar. She befriends Hawke, not despite these facts, but BECAUSE of all they did together to survive. Without Hawke, Aveline would never have even gotten INTO Kirkwall.

As for Cullen, Patrice, and the rest of the 'Establishment;' don't get tripped up by the Templar vs. Mage thing. While that clearly exists here, in the Champion's Kirkwall, the competing conflicts are Templar vs. Templar and Chantry vs. nonbeleivers.

OF COURSE Aveline and Cullen and Patrice know they are dealing with an apostate. But these are people who find themselves in a position to try to use the Champion rather than make him/her submit to the Circle, exactly because of the competing conflicts.

Blah, apologists. Taking away Bethany makes perfect sense. Hawke running around free makes perfect sense. If people just refuse to use simple logic for the sake of defending whatever they are defending and for whatever reasons. I would have lot more respect for fanboys/fangirls if they at least admitted the obvious things.

If I said that it is silly that the citizens of Kirkwall just stand around when you start a fight and don't run and hide then you'd probably say something along 'well they are used to it, it happens all the time' or 'they didn't notice', 'it was dark'.

Point is these things make no sense and never get explained in the game.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 mars 2011 - 03:40 .

[AntiChri5]

So let me get this straight, you're suggesting that we, as the audience, are expected to justify the inadequacy of the writers, pretend that there're no holes in the story and hail it as one of the best stories written for a video game? And all those writers who actually who put their time and effort into writing a well contrusted story are just pointlessly wasting their time? You know, my 5 year cousin can come up with stories that deserve the Nobel Prize in Literature if the judges to fill in everything themselves. I don't have to "hate" the story to recognize plot holes and lack of polish. Apparently, since you know the story better than the writers themselves, you obviously know me better than I know myself.

Oh get over yourself.

You not being able to see the explanation for something does not make the story crap. If they were to devote as much time as necessary to exposition in order to explain the reasons behind every little thing someone might not get the story would be boring as ****. Sometimes, you need to read between the lines.

There are many explanations given in this very thread that are plausible and make sense, your complete refusal to accept them because they are not directly stated (when some of them actually are) is unreasonable.

[Naitaka]

Lithuasil wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...
I'll disagree about Orsino doing the "bloody cabbage patch kid" thing, especially after giving his rousing speech about surviving (granted I interpreted that as "don't let the Templars break you" and he turns around and breaks), but that aside I see what you mean. I don't place the blame solely on the writer's feet because I don't view games that way - or books, for that matter, there's always an editor involved who's deserving of just as much ire - but I do view it as a collaborative effort by the entire team. In DA2's case they had a good story but I felt they didn't tell a good story, if that makes any sense.

It's a bit like having Hannibal Lecter reading Dr. Seuss to my (imaginary) kids. Undoubtedly a classic kids story, doesn't mean the kids aren't going to be coming out of that with unsoiled sheets and a poor impression of Dr. Seuss. I probably wouludn't either, for that matter.

I really like that analogy

I can see where you're coming from - I just personally feel like it was an excellent story with not even inherently bad, but for the demands of the story, insufficient gameplay.

And Orsino had to go bonkers at that point - if he had not, there'd be a clearly visible "good" ending, siding with the poor oppressed mages against killcrazy meredith. In making both characters flawed and corrupted, the writers manage to not take sides. Having Orsino die bravely, or survive as the kind old elf he appears to be, would have thereby contradicted the entire point the storyline was trying to make so far.

Imho, that is the problem. In order to suit the gameplay, they must have Orsino acting completely out of character and invent some mysterious ancient evil idol that corrupt Meredith even if you side wither her. That seems like sloppy execution to me at best. I do actually agree with you that the concept is solid and have alot of potential to start with, but that doesn't excuse the amount of glaring problems in the execution. A good concept alone cannot be called a well written story.

What I can't understand though, is how people can pretend that the game is perfect in its execution and continue to give Bioware the message that there's nothing wrong with the game in every respect.

[Lithuasil]

Naitaka wrote...
Imho, that is the problem. In order to suit the gameplay, they must have Orsino acting completely out of character and invent some mysterious ancient evil idol that corrupt Meredith even if you side wither her. That seems like sloppy execution to me at best. I do actually agree with you that the concept is solid and have alot of potential to start with, but that doesn't excuse the amount of glaring problems in the execution. A good concept alone cannot be called a well written story.

What I can't understand though, is how people can pretend that the game is perfect in its execution and continue to give Bioware the message that there's nothing wrong with the game in every respect.

Orsino isn't out of character. Him doing what he does, after one fight, with five templars present, is. And no one here said the game was perfect - you're just giving it flak for entirely the wrong reasons, and there's a rather loudmouthed group of people around, that spout demands that'd actually mean massive steps backwards - hence why anyone who actually cares for the series easily gets defensive.

[AlexXIV]

Lithuasil wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Imho, that is the problem. In order to suit the gameplay, they must have Orsino acting completely out of character and invent some mysterious ancient evil idol that corrupt Meredith even if you side wither her. That seems like sloppy execution to me at best. I do actually agree with you that the concept is solid and have alot of potential to start with, but that doesn't excuse the amount of glaring problems in the execution. A good concept alone cannot be called a well written story.

What I can't understand though, is how people can pretend that the game is perfect in its execution and continue to give Bioware the message that there's nothing wrong with the game in every respect.

Orsino isn't out of character. Him doing what he does, after one fight, with five templars present, is. And no one here said the game was perfect - you're just giving it flak for entirely the wrong reasons, and there's a rather loudmouthed group of people around, that spout demands that'd actually mean massive steps backwards - hence why anyone who actually cares for the series easily gets defensive.

You being defensive doesn't help Bioware at all. If you defend bad choices they are doing it again because they are not aware how much people disliked it. I am a Bioware fan and DA fan but ffs I want them to do better with DA3.

[Pandaman102]

Lithuasil wrote...
I really like that analogy

I can see where you're coming from - I just personally feel like it was an excellent story with not even inherently bad, but for the demands of the story, insufficient gameplay.

And Orsino had to go bonkers at that point - if he had not, there'd be a clearly visible "good" ending, siding with the poor oppressed mages against killcrazy meredith. In making both characters flawed and corrupted, the writers manage to not take sides. Having Orsino die bravely, or survive as the kind old elf he appears to be, would have thereby contradicted the entire point the storyline was trying to make so far.

Thanks :happy: Was trying to think of a suitably amusing analogy and, hey, Green Eggs and Ham? Hannibal Lecter? They practically go hand in hand!

What you say is true, the reasoning behind Orsino's fall makes sense, it just felt a little artificial with the "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in" line and slight exposition about Quentin. I think it might have been better timed if it was in the middle of a battle, when the desperation would be more pronounced. Or perhaps after Meredith in an attempt to wreak vengeance upon the remaining Templars. I definitely agree there's too little gameplay, the whole reason I rant on so long about DA2 is because I felt it failed to live up to the story's potential - something I'm convinced Bioware is capable of doing but baffled that they didn't.

[Lithuasil]

AlexXIV wrote...
You being defensive doesn't help Bioware at all. If you defend bad choices they are doing it again because they are not aware how much people disliked it. I am a Bioware fan and DA fan but ffs I want them to do better with DA3.

So do I. But yelling at them how they should just go make Baldurs gate 3 (which like 90% of the voiced criticism actually boils down to) isn't going to improve DA3, it'd be a massive, massive, massive step backwards.

[Naitaka]

AntiChri5 wrote...

So let me get this straight, you're suggesting that we, as the audience, are expected to justify the inadequacy of the writers, pretend that there're no holes in the story and hail it as one of the best stories written for a video game? And all those writers who actually who put their time and effort into writing a well contrusted story are just pointlessly wasting their time? You know, my 5 year cousin can come up with stories that deserve the Nobel Prize in Literature if the judges to fill in everything themselves. I don't have to "hate" the story to recognize plot holes and lack of polish. Apparently, since you know the story better than the writers themselves, you obviously know me better than I know myself.

Oh get over yourself.

You not being able to see the explanation for something does not make the story crap. If they were to devote as much time as necessary to exposition in order to explain the reasons behind every little thing someone might not get the story would be boring as ****. Sometimes, you need to read between the lines.

There are many explanations given in this very thread that are plausible and make sense, your complete refusal to accept them because they are not directly stated (when some of them actually are) is unreasonable.

Yes, having to appeal to the Vicount to protect you or your apostate sister would be so boring, and having to bribe off Templars during the course of the game would be such a waste of time. If this is a story not about mages and templars, I can totally understand their reason to skim over such detail, but when the theme of the game is centered around this very issue and still have you run around like no one even notice you're a mage? Plausible explaination =/= inventing motivation for characters and hypothetical situation that never happened out of thin air.

[Lithuasil]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Thanks :happy: Was trying to think of a suitably amusing analogy and, hey, Green Eggs and Ham? Hannibal Lecter? They practically go hand in hand!

What you say is true, the reasoning behind Orsino's fall makes sense, it just felt a little artificial with the "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in" line and slight exposition about Quentin. I think it might have been better timed if it was in the middle of a battle, when the desperation would be more pronounced. Or perhaps after Meredith in an attempt to wreak vengeance upon the remaining Templars. I definitely agree there's too little gameplay, the whole reason I rant on so long about DA2 is because I felt it failed to live up to the story's potential - something I'm convinced Bioware is capable of doing but baffled that they didn't.

True enough - after a twenty minute battle, having him turn battering ram to force an escape for the remaining mages, only to loose control or be cut down a few rooms down the line, would've been somewhat more epic.

Out of curiosity, are you familliar with a game called "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic"?

[AntiChri5]

A plausible explanation is an explanation that makes sense, nothig more nothig less.

Hawkes power and influence is directly stated, and the Viscount sheltering Hawke is so obvious it doesn't need to be specifically said.

That does not mean that the story would not have been better if it had been, merely that it is by no means a massive leap.

[Pandaman102]

Lithuasil wrote...

True enough - after a twenty minute battle, having him turn battering ram to force an escape for the remaining mages, only to loose control or be cut down a few rooms down the line, would've been somewhat more epic.

Out of curiosity, are you familliar with a game called "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic"?

Unfortunately no, last Might and Magic game I played was Heroes of Might and Magic 3. With a hex editor. And 90,000 peasants.

Poor dragons, never stood a chance.

[Lithuasil]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

True enough - after a twenty minute battle, having him turn battering ram to force an escape for the remaining mages, only to loose control or be cut down a few rooms down the line, would've been somewhat more epic.

Out of curiosity, are you familliar with a game called "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic"?

Unfortunately no, last Might and Magic game I played was Heroes of Might and Magic 3. With a hex editor. And 90,000 peasants.

Poor dragons, never stood a chance.

You might want to check it out (should be on steam pretty cheap) - it's an fps/action rpg offspring of the series, and in my humble opinion the one game that managed to connect gameplay and storytelling best

[Naitaka]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Thanks :happy: Was trying to think of a suitably amusing analogy and, hey, Green Eggs and Ham? Hannibal Lecter? They practically go hand in hand!

What you say is true, the reasoning behind Orsino's fall makes sense, it just felt a little artificial with the "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in" line and slight exposition about Quentin. I think it might have been better timed if it was in the middle of a battle, when the desperation would be more pronounced. Or perhaps after Meredith in an attempt to wreak vengeance upon the remaining Templars. I definitely agree there's too little gameplay, the whole reason I rant on so long about DA2 is because I felt it failed to live up to the story's potential - something I'm convinced Bioware is capable of doing but baffled that they didn't.

Agreed, if you were surrounded with overwhelming number of Templars with literally no hope of escape or winning, then Orsino's action would have seem more logical. I still think they could have done a much better job fleshing out Orsino's character, we hardly ever see him act in the role as the First Enchanter, while with Irving, Bioware did a great job even though he was arguably much less important figure to DAO than Orsino is to DA2. They never should have pushed the game out of the door so soon with ME3 and SWTOR all being released this year, it just seem like they're spreading themselves too thin.

[AlexXIV]

Lithuasil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
You being defensive doesn't help Bioware at all. If you defend bad choices they are doing it again because they are not aware how much people disliked it. I am a Bioware fan and DA fan but ffs I want them to do better with DA3.

So do I. But yelling at them how they should just go make Baldurs gate 3 (which like 90% of the voiced criticism actually boils down to) isn't going to improve DA3, it'd be a massive, massive, massive step backwards.

I don't want BG3, not even BG2 for that matter. But I want to see things in game make sense in an in character way and not feeling like I am get forced in a certain direction because of gameplay or whatever else reasons. Take Mass Effect. You get to choose whether you save one or the other squadmate and it makes perfect sense why. Because you are in the middle and you can only run in one direction. It's not even hard to do. But having to choose between templars and mages for no obvious reason does not make sense to me. I mean how is Hawke even involved? Especially if the whole family could be dead by then? The reason you have to choose is because Hawke is supposed to be important for DA3 as either mage or templar supporter.

Bioware is so bad at making game mechanics feel like they are part of the story. There is always a sharp cut. This is a game mechanic and this is the story. Don't mix it, don't even try. This is in my opinion Bioware's weakest point and they don't even seem to care to fix it. Probably they even think it is impossible to make gamemechanics work in a way they don't break immersion every time.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 23 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[Naitaka]

Lithuasil wrote...

Pandaman102 wrote...

Thanks :happy: Was trying to think of a suitably amusing analogy and, hey, Green Eggs and Ham? Hannibal Lecter? They practically go hand in hand!

What you say is true, the reasoning behind Orsino's fall makes sense, it just felt a little artificial with the "I'm not giving up, I'm giving in" line and slight exposition about Quentin. I think it might have been better timed if it was in the middle of a battle, when the desperation would be more pronounced. Or perhaps after Meredith in an attempt to wreak vengeance upon the remaining Templars. I definitely agree there's too little gameplay, the whole reason I rant on so long about DA2 is because I felt it failed to live up to the story's potential - something I'm convinced Bioware is capable of doing but baffled that they didn't.

True enough - after a twenty minute battle, having him turn battering ram to force an escape for the remaining mages, only to loose control or be cut down a few rooms down the line, would've been somewhat more epic.

Out of curiosity, are you familliar with a game called "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic"?

That game has the most epic melee combat in a  FPS game ever, it makes oblivion look like child's play. Too bad it never got the sequal it deserved.

[Lithuasil]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is so bad at making game mechanics feel like they are part of the story. There is always a sharp cut. This is a game mechanic and this is the story. Don't mix it, don't even try. This is in my opinion Bioware's weakest point and they don't even seem to care to fix it. Probably they even think it is impossible to make gamemechanics workd in a way they don't break immersion every time.

True enough, it's been their biggest problem - but they're getting there. It's a long step in the right direction, from the gameplay of BG/Nwn to what we get in DA2. I completely agree they're not quite there. But they're on the right track. And telling them that they are, and how they can improve it, should be somewhat more helpful then ranting about "how it's the worst game ever and has totally been dumbed down for the console tards"

[Lithuasil]

Naitaka wrote...


That game has the most epic melee combat in a  FPS game ever, it makes oblivion look like child's play. Too bad it never got the sequal it deserved.

My point exactly - for example, fighting the Orc Shaman is pretty much exactly what fighting the Arishok "should" have felt like

[Morocius]

AntiChri5 wrote...

So let me get this straight, you're suggesting that we, as the audience, are expected to justify the inadequacy of the writers, pretend that there're no holes in the story and hail it as one of the best stories written for a video game? And all those writers who actually who put their time and effort into writing a well contrusted story are just pointlessly wasting their time? You know, my 5 year cousin can come up with stories that deserve the Nobel Prize in Literature if the judges to fill in everything themselves. I don't have to "hate" the story to recognize plot holes and lack of polish. Apparently, since you know the story better than the writers themselves, you obviously know me better than I know myself.

Oh get over yourself.

You not being able to see the explanation for something does not make the story crap. If they were to devote as much time as necessary to exposition in order to explain the reasons behind every little thing someone might not get the story would be boring as ****. Sometimes, you need to read between the lines.

There are many explanations given in this very thread that are plausible and make sense, your complete refusal to accept them because they are not directly stated (when some of them actually are) is unreasonable.

Many of those explanations are on the level of: " the maker came to them in a dream and told them not to harm the champion". Personaly i do think it's a bit awkward that (blood)mage Hawke is left to his/her own designs, with no story to explain/excuse it, especially since Merideth is such a hardliner. Not saying this bad per se, but perhaps a missed oppertunity.

As for Orisino, for the first few seconds i honestly thought he was going to help me fight the Templars, him turning on that particulair moment was unexpected to ay the least.

[Giltspur]

Here's the thing.  Hawke is strong enough to kill a small army of templar, a small army of Qunari, tons of darkspawn, gangs throughout lowtown that pop up like ants from a stepped-on anthill, dragons, demons, mercenaries, mercenaries that come in search of revenge, the Arishok and Meredith. 

So who exactly is going to arrest him and successfully detain him?  Cullen?

He didn't get to be Champion by giving speeches.  Dude can flip his apostate collar up and stroll around town with sunglasses on.  What are people honestly going to do?  

Yeah, they could try to raise an army against him the way the Warden did with the Archdemon.  But can they get the political or even military support to pull it off?  And why bother when there's a chance to gain him as an ally?

The only way to hurt Hawke is to go after his family and friends.  Direct force is irrelevant.

This is not to say that there isn't an immersion-breaking element to it all.  My point is that all games have a suspension of disbelief in some areas.  Some of them you take for granted; some you don't.  Here's one you take for granted: Hawke is that badass in game.  No one in the real world is that badass. They make him that badass for the same reason Rambo is badass.  It's for the action scenes.  There's give and there's take.  They want to give lots of heroic action.  So they take away a little reality.  Everyone does it.  It's one of the rules we implicitly agree to when playing heroic fantasies.

So they have to sacrifice details to help the story by making Hawke (or any video game hero) such a beast.  But what about being a mage?  Does it help the story to make him a mage that walks around Kirkwall, obviously a mage with his mage staff, mage robes and mage spells?  Well, it's a missed opportunity to enhance the feeling of being on the run, being made a criminal even when you've done nothing wrong.  To feel like Anders.  They could have used it as an opporunity to not dress him like a typical mage.  (and often they don't) They could use it as an opportunity to have Kirkwall mages wears swords instead of staves.  

So you've got that possibility.  Now what are the drawbacks?  Not being able to cast spells in a whole bunch of fights.  What do you do?  Well, Bioware decided to mostly ignore it but make mention of it when later on in the game characters make mention of you being a known apostate.  It's not perfect, but it's something.

If people think the game would have been cooler by having had to hide one's maginess, that's useful feedback to give to Bioware.  But no one should be outraged by this.  It's not shocking.  It's not stupid.  It's not like Bioware didn't think of all of this.  

In Baldur's Gate II, they made you hide the fact that you were a mage.  Most gamers were probably annoyed by it and found ways around it.  Maybe they just didn't bother this time and left it to the player's imagination.

What I told myself was that templars saw me using spells but that they knew they couldn't take me then and there.  Or maybe they were just freaking afraid.  Maybe later they went and said something but word came from above that Hawke be left alone because he's different and requires special consideration from folks higher in the chain of command.  The order dictates, basically.  The order being the superiors, which always have political considerations to take into account when deciding when and how to apply the "rules".

Modifié par Giltspur, 23 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[Pandaman102]

Lithuasil wrote...

You might want to check it out (should be on steam pretty cheap) - it's an fps/action rpg offspring of the series, and in my humble opinion the one game that managed to connect gameplay and storytelling best

I'll do that, it's not on Steam but games are marked down about 25% here and it's old enough not to have Ubisoft's DRM, so getting a copy from the local shop wouldn't be a problem. Thanks for the suggestion!

[AlexXIV]

Lithuasil wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bioware is so bad at making game mechanics feel like they are part of the story. There is always a sharp cut. This is a game mechanic and this is the story. Don't mix it, don't even try. This is in my opinion Bioware's weakest point and they don't even seem to care to fix it. Probably they even think it is impossible to make gamemechanics workd in a way they don't break immersion every time.

True enough, it's been their biggest problem - but they're getting there. It's a long step in the right direction, from the gameplay of BG/Nwn to what we get in DA2. I completely agree they're not quite there. But they're on the right track. And telling them that they are, and how they can improve it, should be somewhat more helpful then ranting about "how it's the worst game ever and has totally been dumbed down for the console tards"

I would like to believe that they are getting there. But the exploding enemies for example are not exactly a step in that direction imho. It is almost as if they make their own story no matter what the player thinks about it and in exchange try to give the player in other things like combat whatever they think the player wants. I have a hard time getting over all the combat animations. Not even the ninja style, but just take bloodmages impaling themselves with their staff through their chest/heart. Really? What was the reasoning behind that I wonder.

[Lithuasil]

AlexXIV wrote...

I would like to believe that they are getting there. But the exploding enemies for example are not exactly a step in that direction imho. It is almost as if they make their own story no matter what the player thinks about it and in exchange try to give the player in other things like combat whatever they think the player wants. I have a hard time getting over all the combat animations. Not even the ninja style, but just take bloodmages impaling themselves with their staff through their chest/heart. Really? What was the reasoning behind that I wonder.

Aside from that and "lol goresplosion" the combat animations are quite ok imho - but I agree - if I could I'd change the combat system the games have now, a great deal.

[dreman9999]

Suron wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Bethany is taken by the Templars if you don't take her to the deep roads.  There is NO WAY any mage can rise high enough in the chantry's eyes to not fall into their laws about mages having to be in the circle.

so no...you're wrong..Hawkes power and prestige would account for nothing once it's found out (s)he's a mage..ESPECIALLY if you're a blood mage.

the ONLY support Hawke may get is from the populace..and not even many of them because the MAJORITY fear mages....and for even those that would stick up for Hawke once (s)he's gotten that high in prestige wouldn't matter to Meredith OR the Chantry as a whole...ONLY Warden mages are "legally" outside of Chantry law.  And as we saw in Awakening some Templars don't even care about that...and Meredith obviously wouldn't either.

Bethany specifically says in act 1 that you need to amass power and wealth so that the Templars cannot get to you. She is taken before you can amass this, and goes willingly so that she will not be a burden.

Meredith knows Anders is an apostate, but does not mess with him because Hawke is too powerful. Take Anders with you when doing that quest for Meredith in act 3 and they will bicker, she directly calls him "mage".

Hawke becomes very powerful in Kirlwall.

Act 1 = Unknown.

Act 2 = Protected by Viscount because you are working for him

Act 3 = Champion. Second most powerful person in the city, who Meredith wants as an ally, not an enemy.

Anders is a Warden.  Even if he "left" them...Warden mages don't fall under the same laws.  hence conscription.

you're wrong...fact.

oh and if power and prestige mattered then why would Isolde hire an apostate to teach her son to hide his magic if power and prestige would keep someone out of the circle?

you, my friend, need to re-read DA lore.  you're just flat out wrong.  whether you want to admit it or not.

Anders left the wardens so he's no longer protected.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Well, they obviously didn't pay much attention to the gameplay-story connection in general. Either that or blood mages fighting Carta thugs is just such a common event that passing pedestrians have learned to completely tune it out.