175 réponses à ce sujet

[Naitaka]

Giltspur wrote...
*snip

See, but making the Templars cower in fear and hearing conversation between Templars about how there's a rumor of a certain powerful maleficarum who wiped out an entire strike force of Templars off the Wounded Coast would have been equally as immersive as having to hide the fact you're a mage. The problem is not Bioware decision not to prevent player's from casting in Kirkwall, it's the fact they didn't do anything to back up that decision. At least that's how I see it anyway.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[The Angry One]

Lithuasil wrote...

And Orsino had to go bonkers at that point - if he had not, there'd be a clearly visible "good" ending, siding with the poor oppressed mages against killcrazy meredith. In making both characters flawed and corrupted, the writers manage to not take sides. Having Orsino die bravely, or survive as the kind old elf he appears to be, would have thereby contradicted the entire point the storyline was trying to make so far.

That's not a point, that's gratuity. What exactly would be wrong with Orsino dying nobly.
Having Orsino be a good guy would counterbalance the fact that Anders is a crazy terrorist at least.
The only reason they made everyone crazy is to sequel hook by making the situation unalterably bad.

[Parrk]

DA2 hate is about far more than the debatable quality of this game.

In a lot of ways, this game serves as the final nail in the coffin for a type of game that many people love. The problem is that there do not exist enough people who love that particular archtype to justify a AAA studio creating those games just for them.

Whether you like DA2 depends on how you feel about Bioware's current trajectory, which seems to be moving away from the type of "omg this is soooo arpeegee with its lore-based volumes of text and incredibly arduous inventory and mind-warpingly-slow combat."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those games, but it was despite those things, not because of them. NWN2 was the hardest I ever had to work at actually liking a game, and in the end it was well worth it. I never succeeded in liking morrowind, though I tried repeatedly, but I adore oblivion.

I am not so much an fanboy, as someone who is pleased with the current direction. I tried to play Origins last weekend, and although I still love the game, it was quite painful. The combat speed was maddening...and I ran double-haste-precision-dw-war...

Since realizing this last week I've been trying to be less critical of detractors. In the end, they are not so much trying to tear down something I enjoy, as they are misdirecting their grief at the passing of something they enjoyed.

[Naitaka]

Parrk wrote...

DA2 hate is about far more than the debatable quality of this game.

In a lot of ways, this game serves as the final nail in the coffin for a type of game that many people love. The problem is that there do not exist enough people who love that particular archtype to justify a AAA studio creating those games just for them.

Whether you like DA2 depends on how you feel about Bioware's current trajectory, which seems to be moving away from the type of "omg this is soooo arpeegee with its lore-based volumes of text and incredibly arduous inventory and mind-warpingly-slow combat."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those games, but it was despite those things, not because of them. NWN2 was the hardest I ever had to work at actually liking a game, and in the end it was well worth it. I never succeeded in liking morrowind, though I tried repeatedly, but I adore oblivion.

I am not so much an fanboy, as someone who is pleased with the current direction. I tried to play Origins last weekend, and although I still love the game, it was quite painful. The combat speed was maddening...and I ran double-haste-precision-dw-war...

Since realizing this last week I've been trying to be less critical of detractors. In the end, they are not so much trying to tear down something I enjoy, as they are misdirecting their grief at the passing of something they enjoyed.

A very well put post and I completely agree with you on the point with NWN2, I must have restarted that game over 5 times because I just couldn't get through the OC, MoTB was totally worth it though.

Imho, I think Mike was pretty spot on about the whole kneejerk reaction comment he made about early reviews. However, that doesn't mean we should stop being critical of the game on things that CAN be improved.

[Satyricon331]

In DAO, I explained away my companions surviving taint exposure by thinking some people naturally have immunity/resistance (probably the same people who'd survive Joinings), and your companions all just happen to be such people b/c the game abstracted away other companions you had who didn't have immunity. It was a good enough explanation for me, but I can acknowledge it's a little strained. It's implausible.

The people defending DA2 are offering stories that might be possible, but I just don't see the argument it's more than merely possible. I don't understand why people are so reluctant to acknowledge it's implausible to have Cullen see you casting Chain Lightning and Winter's Grasp and not call you out even though he has no idea who you are when he meets you, especially since he could say something without forcing a confrontation (in the game, he doesn't realize you're a mage until much later). Any explanation you give for that and other situations might pass the "possible" test, but it just seems unreasonable to me to say it's less strained or less implausible than having Kirkwall be sufficiently tolerant of elves than an elven or dwarven family fleeing Lothering might want to go there, and would eventually acquire a mansion there just as Fenris did. Perhaps Kirkwallers are more understanding of elves than other cities since they have a shared history of slavery.

The reason Bioware gave you the option to play a mage and not an elf or a dwarf was money. Many people wouldn't have bought the game if playing a mage wasn't an option, while BW (according to the blog of that employee who quit; l I forget his name) knew there were camera issues when having races of different heights in creating a cinematic feel. They just expected playing a non-human wouldn't be a deal-breaker for people. If telling yourself stories about how the Templars are too resource-starved to go after your open apostate character makes the game fun for you, that's great! But arguing it isn't a strained interpreation or that it withstands all scrutiny seems a little silly, imo.

[The Angry One]

Pft, I can play a modded elf and don't have any noticable camera issues.
Yeah maybe for dwarves it'd be more difficult and hell BioWare can't seem to get Aveline's cutscenes right without shoving the camera into her damn face, but still.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 mars 2011 - 04:46 .

[Bann Duncan]

Lithuasil wrote...

And Orsino had to go bonkers at that point - if he had not, there'd be a clearly visible "good" ending, siding with the poor oppressed mages against killcrazy meredith. In making both characters flawed and corrupted, the writers manage to not take sides. Having Orsino die bravely, or survive as the kind old elf he appears to be, would have thereby contradicted the entire point the storyline was trying to make so far.

In a sense, there already is (though there's no way Hawke could know) given that Orsino is evil while Meredith is only insane because of an outside influence.

[Addai]

Can't believe people are so anal about such things that they'd actually want the option of being able to play as a mage removed from the game. I'm glad Bioware doesn't listen to the purists.

[Lithuasil]

Bann Duncan wrote...

In a sense, there already is (though there's no way Hawke could know) given that Orsino is evil while Meredith is only insane because of an outside influence.

We don't know how evil orsino actually is, just as we don't know how evil Meredith was before soul edge happened. (though we get hints for both).

[Satyricon331]

Addai67 wrote...
Can't believe people are so anal about such things that they'd actually want the option of being able to play as a mage removed from the game. I'm glad Bioware doesn't listen to the purists.

I think the idea is that Bioware should have tweaked the story to be more mage-compatible, rather than tweaked the available classes as if the story were sacrosanct. 

[Naitaka]

Addai67 wrote...

Can't believe people are so anal about such things that they'd actually want the option of being able to play as a mage removed from the game. I'm glad Bioware doesn't listen to the purists.

I don't think people are calling for the ability to play mages to be removed from the game, I think most people wanted it to be recognized and addressed better in the game instead.

[RazorrX]

Parrk wrote...

DA2 hate is about far more than the debatable quality of this game.

In a lot of ways, this game serves as the final nail in the coffin for a type of game that many people love. The problem is that there do not exist enough people who love that particular archtype to justify a AAA studio creating those games just for them.

Whether you like DA2 depends on how you feel about Bioware's current trajectory, which seems to be moving away from the type of "omg this is soooo arpeegee with its lore-based volumes of text and incredibly arduous inventory and mind-warpingly-slow combat."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those games, but it was despite those things, not because of them. NWN2 was the hardest I ever had to work at actually liking a game, and in the end it was well worth it. I never succeeded in liking morrowind, though I tried repeatedly, but I adore oblivion.

I am not so much an fanboy, as someone who is pleased with the current direction. I tried to play Origins last weekend, and although I still love the game, it was quite painful. The combat speed was maddening...and I ran double-haste-precision-dw-war...

Since realizing this last week I've been trying to be less critical of detractors. In the end, they are not so much trying to tear down something I enjoy, as they are misdirecting their grief at the passing of something they enjoyed.

Not what is missed by me anyway.  WHat I think DA2 did good was to fix the combat, fix the level ups, I like the companion armor staying the way it was, etc.  I loved the banter, etc.

WHat I dislike has nothing to do with  that.

[The Angry One]

Addai67 wrote...

Can't believe people are so anal about such things that they'd actually want the option of being able to play as a mage removed from the game. I'm glad Bioware doesn't listen to the purists.

I think the point is more that if you're going to be so meta-gamey about letting mages run around Templaropolis with impunity then you might as well let them be elves and dwarves too.
Just cross out wherever it says "human" in the script and go!

[Parrk]

Naitaka wrote...

Parrk wrote...

DA2 hate is about far more than the debatable quality of this game.

In a lot of ways, this game serves as the final nail in the coffin for a type of game that many people love. The problem is that there do not exist enough people who love that particular archtype to justify a AAA studio creating those games just for them.

Whether you like DA2 depends on how you feel about Bioware's current trajectory, which seems to be moving away from the type of "omg this is soooo arpeegee with its lore-based volumes of text and incredibly arduous inventory and mind-warpingly-slow combat."

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed those games, but it was despite those things, not because of them. NWN2 was the hardest I ever had to work at actually liking a game, and in the end it was well worth it. I never succeeded in liking morrowind, though I tried repeatedly, but I adore oblivion.

I am not so much an fanboy, as someone who is pleased with the current direction. I tried to play Origins last weekend, and although I still love the game, it was quite painful. The combat speed was maddening...and I ran double-haste-precision-dw-war...

Since realizing this last week I've been trying to be less critical of detractors. In the end, they are not so much trying to tear down something I enjoy, as they are misdirecting their grief at the passing of something they enjoyed.

A very well put post and I completely agree with you on the point with NWN2, I must have restarted that game over 5 times because I just couldn't get through the OC, MoTB was totally worth it though.

Imho, I think Mike was pretty spot on about the whole kneejerk reaction comment he made about early reviews. However, that doesn't mean we should stop being critical of the game on things that CAN be improved.

I think we are in agreement.

False illusion of choice (not lack of choice which is a development time issue, but their trying so hard to decieve you into thinking your choices will affect the narritive), constant re-use of cave maps, zombie mom saying g'bye.....and not trying to eat your brains,  these criticisms are still quite vialbe.

[Wulfram]

The only occasions when it really bothered me were the first fight in Kirkwall and the one in front of Cullen. There it was difficult for me to justify no one taking action. Otherwise, it was something I could handwave away even if I'd have preferred if Hawke was a little more subtle.

[Arppis]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Being "important" is not a good enough reason for the Templars to ignore an apostate or blood mage.

The most powerful mages have to earn a measure of leniency through years of proving themselves in the Circle. Being a "useful tool" or "the Champion" would be all the more reason for them to want to regulate your abilities and keep a watchful eye on that high level of power you wield.

It really doesn't make sense to play a mage in this game. It's all hand waving and convenience. Which is necessary to a point, yes, but this issue goes way beyond the petty hand-waves of the first game like not succumbing to darkspawn blood in battle.

Yes it is. How many times have you seen influencal people get out of trouble because of their status? Especialy in my country, what should have full democracy, the right-winged politicians get away with all kinds of crap. Like one of our ministers drove over 2 people while being drunk and he didn't get jailtime, just fines. 

So yes, status helps you a lot.

[Parrk]

Arppis wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Being "important" is not a good enough reason for the Templars to ignore an apostate or blood mage.

The most powerful mages have to earn a measure of leniency through years of proving themselves in the Circle. Being a "useful tool" or "the Champion" would be all the more reason for them to want to regulate your abilities and keep a watchful eye on that high level of power you wield.

It really doesn't make sense to play a mage in this game. It's all hand waving and convenience. Which is necessary to a point, yes, but this issue goes way beyond the petty hand-waves of the first game like not succumbing to darkspawn blood in battle.

Yes it is. How many times have you seen influencal people get out of trouble because of their status? Especialy in my country, what should have full democracy, the right-winged politicians get away with all kinds of crap. Like one of our ministers drove over 2 people while being drunk and he didn't get jailtime, just fines. 

So yes, status helps you a lot.

I  think that there arrives a point whereby you just have to let a few things go.  I appreciate this conversation, and in my mage playthroughs it does occur to me.  In the end though, sometimes a bit of a perspective check can help you accept the little things.

It is fantasy after all.  this reminds me of when I  played wow and there was discussion of how our dragon mounts didn't really seem altogether beholden to the accepted laws of aviation physics.  This completely ignores the point that the dragon mounts completely ignored the lack of existance of dragons...

[Satyricon331]

The Angry One wrote...
Pft, I can play a modded elf and don't have any noticable camera issues.
Yeah maybe for dwarves it'd be more difficult and hell BioWare can't seem to get Aveline's cutscenes right without shoving the camera into her damn face, but still.

It was Brent Knowles I was referring to.  The quote was:

Not choosing race is a Very Bad Thing and has everything to do with cinematic limitations - characters with different heights and sizes are difficult to build cinematic conversations for - as well the choice impacts the amount of dialog that needs to be written.

But I'm curious what mod you're using?  I found one that modded the character creation screen that let me play with an elf head, but it was far too small for the still-human body.  I'd be very interested in getting around that issue :happy:

Modifié par Satyricon331, 23 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[The Lesser Evil]

Act 3 is completely fine as far as I'm concerned, since the commander of the Templars and the most powerful person in Kirkwall makes it clear you're being tolerated by her. The good you do actually serves her purpose, I imagine it gives her someone to point at to show the contrast between Hawke and all the "bad" mages to validate her iron-fist approach.

Act 1 is MOSTLY fine, because you're on the down-low. The only real issue there is when you meet Cullen and openly use magic. Not just you either, but up to three apostates can throw around their spells freely and he doesn't mention it at all. There's not even a hint that he knows, not even him questioning if the magic that was thrown around (while he was focused on the demons) was yours. I'll give him (and other Templars) a pass on not noticing your magic staff and potential mage-y outfit, because that was never cause for anyone to bat an eyelash in Origins either. It's not like you had a sign around your neck with "CALM DOWN, CIRCLE MAGE" written on it.

But I feel like the Cullen encounter could have had an alternative scenario where he either questions Hawke about whether or not he saw what he thought he saw, or deciding that saving him from Wilmod and the other demons and your potential usefulness in helping to find out what the f is going on with the recruits justifies him looking the other way for the time being. A 'fight fire with fire' type of thing, using a mage to take out other mages without potentially risking more Templars.

Act 2? I don't know. The least they could have done was add a mention that there's a conflict between the viscount and Meredith concerning Hawke, or they could have had Meredith mention that she's been aware of you for a while now but was waiting for the right moment to strike you down. Or tell you that she had seen your potential usefulness for a while already. Letting Hawke rise to prominence and THEN cutting him down would have been an excellent plan, because it would send the message of 'OMG MAGES EVERYWHERE' to the general populace.

It doesn't really BOTHER me, but I do see that it could have been handled better.

Modifié par The Lesser Evil, 23 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[Naitaka]

Satyricon331 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Pft, I can play a modded elf and don't have any noticable camera issues.
Yeah maybe for dwarves it'd be more difficult and hell BioWare can't seem to get Aveline's cutscenes right without shoving the camera into her damn face, but still.

It was Brent Knowles I was referring to.  The quote was:

Not choosing race is a Very Bad Thing and has everything to do with cinematic limitations - characters with different heights and sizes are difficult to build cinematic conversations for - as well the choice impacts the amount of dialog that needs to be written.

But I'm curious what mod you're using?  I found one that modded the character creation screen that let me play with an elf head, but it was far too small for the still-human body.  I'd be very interested in getting around that issue :happy:

Dwarf

Elf (Now complete with family members)

[The Angry One]

Satyricon331 wrote...

But I'm curious what mod you're using?  I found one that modded the character creation screen that let me play with an elf head, but it was far too small for the still-human body.  I'd be very interested in getting around that issue :happy:

www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php

Replaces bodies and such. You have to move the files in and out of the override folder if you want to switch back to human, of course.

Edit: Beaten to it. The dwarf one is pretty funny.

Modifié par The Angry One, 23 mars 2011 - 05:10 .

[Satyricon331]

Naitaka wrote...
Dwarf

Elf (Now complete with family members)

Thanks! 
edit: and to The Angry One too :happy:

Modifié par Satyricon331, 23 mars 2011 - 05:13 .

[Arppis]

Parrk wrote...

Arppis wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Being "important" is not a good enough reason for the Templars to ignore an apostate or blood mage.

The most powerful mages have to earn a measure of leniency through years of proving themselves in the Circle. Being a "useful tool" or "the Champion" would be all the more reason for them to want to regulate your abilities and keep a watchful eye on that high level of power you wield.

It really doesn't make sense to play a mage in this game. It's all hand waving and convenience. Which is necessary to a point, yes, but this issue goes way beyond the petty hand-waves of the first game like not succumbing to darkspawn blood in battle.

Yes it is. How many times have you seen influencal people get out of trouble because of their status? Especialy in my country, what should have full democracy, the right-winged politicians get away with all kinds of crap. Like one of our ministers drove over 2 people while being drunk and he didn't get jailtime, just fines. 

So yes, status helps you a lot.

I  think that there arrives a point whereby you just have to let a few things go.  I appreciate this conversation, and in my mage playthroughs it does occur to me.  In the end though, sometimes a bit of a perspective check can help you accept the little things.

It is fantasy after all.  this reminds me of when I  played wow and there was discussion of how our dragon mounts didn't really seem altogether beholden to the accepted laws of aviation physics.  This completely ignores the point that the dragon mounts completely ignored the lack of existance of dragons...

And this too. Even when the status DOES protect you in certain degree, it is a fictional world and sometimes logic gets kicked out to serve better story and gameplay.

[5ubzer0]

Suron wrote...

...to be a mage?

it makes NO sense.

Yup, it doesn't. Although I understand why they didn't spend time on unique mage responses in the dialogues, it felt awkward. My blood aura is still running and my only exploratory dialogue wheel option says "Blood magic is evil!!!"

At least add a *wink* or *big grin* to the anti-mage responses my apostate makes.

[Brockololly]

Problem is that the game makes a big stink early on with Bethany being an apostate and having to lay low for fear she'll be taken by the Templars or ratted out. But, oh, its fine to rain fiery death from above in plain sight of the Templars on the streets of Kirkwall. Maybe it would make sense for Champion of Kirkwall version of Hawke getting a pass, but fresh off the boat, refugee scrub Hawke who can't even get into the city?

Again, if they simply had some BG2 style Cowled Wizards mechanic that would have worked. Have them capture you or Bethany and then you have to find a way out of the Circle. Maybe you find a corrupt Thrask like Templar higher up who is willing to cut a deal or give you a pass to use magic in the city or something if you do X, Y or Z for them. There are so many ways they could have addressed this internal inconsistency but they didn't.