175 réponses à ce sujet

[RPGamer13]

Suron wrote...


Bethany is taken by the Templars if you don't take her to the deep roads.  There is NO WAY any mage can rise high enough in the chantry's eyes to not fall into their laws about mages having to be in the circle.

She's not taken by them, she turns herself in, there's a huge difference.

Meredith is the leader of the templars, the end all and be all of what those in Kirkwall do, so if she wants Mage Hawke alive and unharmed, none of them are going to kill or harm Hawke.  Plus, it's the Idol that makes her what she is when we finally confront her and everything she does in Act 2 and 3.  If it weren't for the idol, she wouldn't have been so quick to invoke "the right of annulment".

[Loc'n'lol]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

Act 3 is completely fine as far as I'm concerned, since the commander of the Templars and the most powerful person in Kirkwall makes it clear you're being tolerated by her. The good you do actually serves her purpose, I imagine it gives her someone to point at to show the contrast between Hawke and all the "bad" mages to validate her iron-fist approach.

Act 1 is MOSTLY fine, because you're on the down-low. The only real issue there is when you meet Cullen and openly use magic. Not just you either, but up to three apostates can throw around their spells freely and he doesn't mention it at all. There's not even a hint that he knows, not even him questioning if the magic that was thrown around (while he was focused on the demons) was yours. I'll give him (and other Templars) a pass on not noticing your magic staff and potential mage-y outfit, because that was never cause for anyone to bat an eyelash in Origins either. It's not like you had a sign around your neck with "CALM DOWN, CIRCLE MAGE" written on it.

But I feel like the Cullen encounter could have had an alternative scenario where he either questions Hawke about whether or not he saw what he thought he saw, or deciding that saving him from Wilmod and the other demons and your potential usefulness in helping to find out what the f is going on with the recruits justifies him looking the other way for the time being. A 'fight fire with fire' type of thing, using a mage to take out other mages without potentially risking more Templars.

Act 2? I don't know. The least they could have done was add a mention that there's a conflict between the viscount and Meredith concerning Hawke, or they could have had Meredith mention that she's been aware of you for a while now but was waiting for the right moment to strike you down. Or tell you that she had seen your potential usefulness for a while already. Letting Hawke rise to prominence and THEN cutting him down would have been an excellent plan, because it would send the message of 'OMG MAGES EVERYWHERE' to the general populace.

It doesn't really BOTHER me, but I do see that it could have been handled better.

Yes, this. All of it.

[Arppis]

Act 2 works because he is a noble and they have status + moneys. Simple. Just like the Red Iron or the Smuglers protected Mage Hawke or Bethany for the year. Plus as he has done loads of favours to the people of Kirkwall, they are less likely to subdue him as they owe him.

[AndreaDraco]

The problem, in my opinion, is only Act 1. From then on, you're - at least during the main plot quests - acting on behalf of the Viscount and I can think that, despite his being little more than a pushover, he still has some saying about the life in his city. In Act 3, Meredith openly aknowledges that a mage Hawke is being tolerated for the good he did to the city, so I guess it's fine. Act 1, maybe, should have been more hiding/escaping, just to be consistent.

[Frybread76]

For what it's worth, DA:O gave a plausible excuse for being a mage: You were a Warden and, therefore, should be out of the reach of the Templars and Chantry.

DA2 doesn't give a plausible reason, IMO, of why Hawke can openly be an apostate (especially a blood mage!!!) without being dragged off to the Circle.

[ppitchfork]

i find it a bit amazing how many people are complaining about this hawke mage thing.  it's bad enough that we can't choose a different race, so how much belly-aching would've taken place if you can't even choose a class?  so, it's apparent that bioware threw the player a bone even though i think it's pretty obvious (in most of the  promotional artwork, companion class make-up, and in story) that warrior hawke is the canon version. 

as for walking the streets and nobody noticing that you're a mage...  come on.  we give movies suspension of disbelief all the time.  why can't we extend the same courtesy here?  it's a game with a story, not a human behavior simulator. 

[Frybread76]

ppitchfork wrote...

i find it a bit amazing how many people are complaining about this hawke mage thing.  it's bad enough that we can't choose a different race, so how much belly-aching would've taken place if you can't even choose a class?  so, it's apparent that bioware threw the player a bone even though i think it's pretty obvious (in most of the  promotional artwork, companion class make-up, and in story) that warrior hawke is the canon version. 

as for walking the streets and nobody noticing that you're a mage...  come on.  we give movies suspension of disbelief all the time.  why can't we extend the same courtesy here?  it's a game with a story, not a human behavior simulator. 

I thought Hawke was a male mage in the promotional art and video?

[ppitchfork]

Frybread76 wrote...

ppitchfork wrote...

i find it a bit amazing how many people are complaining about this hawke mage thing.  it's bad enough that we can't choose a different race, so how much belly-aching would've taken place if you can't even choose a class?  so, it's apparent that bioware threw the player a bone even though i think it's pretty obvious (in most of the  promotional artwork, companion class make-up, and in story) that warrior hawke is the canon version. 

as for walking the streets and nobody noticing that you're a mage...  come on.  we give movies suspension of disbelief all the time.  why can't we extend the same courtesy here?  it's a game with a story, not a human behavior simulator. 

I thought Hawke was a male mage in the promotional art and video?

i didn't watch every trailer, but on every game site i saw ads on or previews he was always covered in blood carrying a big sword.  the only promo picture i ever saw of him as a mage out of 100 or so promo shots is the one where he's got the red flame in his hand.  not even carrying a staff, from what i can tell.

Modifié par ppitchfork, 23 mars 2011 - 05:48 .

[MajorJoeKickass]

ppitchfork wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

ppitchfork wrote...

i find it a bit amazing how many people are complaining about this hawke mage thing.  it's bad enough that we can't choose a different race, so how much belly-aching would've taken place if you can't even choose a class?  so, it's apparent that bioware threw the player a bone even though i think it's pretty obvious (in most of the  promotional artwork, companion class make-up, and in story) that warrior hawke is the canon version. 

as for walking the streets and nobody noticing that you're a mage...  come on.  we give movies suspension of disbelief all the time.  why can't we extend the same courtesy here?  it's a game with a story, not a human behavior simulator. 

I thought Hawke was a male mage in the promotional art and video?

i didn't watch every trailer, but on every game site i saw ads on or previews he was always covered in blood carrying a big sword.  the only promo picture i ever saw of him as a mage out of 100 or so promo shots is the one where he's got the red flame in his hand.  not even carrying a staff, from what i can tell.

Could be the staff of Parthalan, and i tought he were mage in the the trailers and such aswell

[Arppis]

ppitchfork wrote...

Frybread76 wrote...

ppitchfork wrote...

i find it a bit amazing how many people are complaining about this hawke mage thing.  it's bad enough that we can't choose a different race, so how much belly-aching would've taken place if you can't even choose a class?  so, it's apparent that bioware threw the player a bone even though i think it's pretty obvious (in most of the  promotional artwork, companion class make-up, and in story) that warrior hawke is the canon version. 

as for walking the streets and nobody noticing that you're a mage...  come on.  we give movies suspension of disbelief all the time.  why can't we extend the same courtesy here?  it's a game with a story, not a human behavior simulator. 

I thought Hawke was a male mage in the promotional art and video?

i didn't watch every trailer, but on every game site i saw ads on or previews he was always covered in blood carrying a big sword.  the only promo picture i ever saw of him as a mage out of 100 or so promo shots is the one where he's got the red flame in his hand.  not even carrying a staff, from what i can tell.

That's a mage. Every picture of him is as mage. Mage is the "canon" class. Like Soldier is in Mass Effect games.

[Gentleman Moogle]

Yeah, he's a mage who -- by sheer coincidence -- looks like a warrior.

Don't think about it too hard. Some people certainly didn't.

[ppitchfork]

if mage hawke is canon then F me and this story really is dumb. don't quite believe that, though. the story is written for him to be a mage sympathizer, not a mage himself.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Frybread76 wrote...

For what it's worth, DA:O gave a plausible excuse for being a mage: You were a Warden and, therefore, should be out of the reach of the Templars and Chantry.

Given Varric's penchant for tall tales, I'm surprised there's never a scenario in which he tells a fib about Warden-Commander Hawke from the Anderfels, here on business at the request of Bartrand Tethras, part of a joint-venture to forge into unknown parts of the Deep Roads. Or something.

DA2 doesn't give a plausible reason, IMO, of why Hawke can openly be an apostate (especially a blood mage!!!) without being dragged off to the Circle.

"Openly," not so much. They just didn't take the idea that you're hiding your powers far enough to include it as a gameplay mechanic--which would have been cool, but would have had the unfortunate side-effect of discouraging the use of mages as party members entirely. As it is, battles may as well take place in out-of-sight hammerspace arenas a la old-school Final Fantasy, as no one reacts to any of your combat actions at all, apart from your enemies.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Gentleman Moogle wrote...

Yeah, he's a mage who -- by sheer coincidence -- looks like a warrior.

Don't think about it too hard. Some people certainly didn't.

Although when you think about it practically, that sort of outfit is something apostates should wear more often. You know, instead of actual robes that may as well have "I AM AN APOSTATE, HEAR ME ROAR" embroidered on the back.

EDIT: Also, he didn't carry a sword, just for clarification--he carried a staff with a blade on the bottom-end, and fought with a lot more melee prowess than mages actually possess in-game. The staff in question is actually the Staff of Parthelan.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 23 mars 2011 - 06:14 .

[Rogue Unit]

Fine. You heard 'em, Bioware. Remove the mage class so people can whine about the loss of choice some more.

Seriously, are we bashimg DA2 for hand-waving the mage situation? In DAO, Connor, a possessed mage, wasn't ripped away from his family right away. His family had influence, that's why. Had he been some random Joe, the templars would have slaughteref him.

You could run around with Morrigan and preform blood in front of the KC and First Enchanter, yet no one bats an eye. Both games hand-waved the mage situation.

[Naitaka]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Fine. You heard 'em, Bioware. Remove the mage class so people can whine about the loss of choice some more.

Seriously, are we bashimg DA2 for hand-waving the mage situation? In DAO, Connor, a possessed mage, wasn't ripped away from his family right away. His family had influence, that's why. Had he been some random Joe, the templars would have slaughteref him.

You could run around with Morrigan and preform blood in front of the KC and First Enchanter, yet no one bats an eye. Both games hand-waved the mage situation.

Ummm whaaat? Did you miss the part where Isolde hired an apostate and hid Connor's magical ability until **** hits the fan? Also, you CAN turn Morrigan in if you use a mod that unlock those dialogue, it was actually included in the game, just not used. Also Wynne can call you out for being a Blood Mage as well, but that was also not enabled because it can potentially break the game.

Modifié par Naitaka, 23 mars 2011 - 06:25 .

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

"Openly," not so much. They just didn't take the idea that you're hiding your powers far enough to include it as a gameplay mechanic--which would have been cool, but would have had the unfortunate side-effect of discouraging the use of mages as party members entirely. As it is, battles may as well take place in out-of-sight hammerspace arenas a la old-school Final Fantasy, as no one reacts to any of your combat actions at all, apart from your enemies.

Alternatiely, do it properly - let everyone melee on a basic level, depending on the players abilities, with mundane being more able (and thereby more forgiving to play). Mages on the other hand have the failsave of being able to light people on fire, put face consequences when using their powers openly.

+150 Depth

:|

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

"Openly," not so much. They just didn't take the idea that you're hiding your powers far enough to include it as a gameplay mechanic--which would have been cool, but would have had the unfortunate side-effect of discouraging the use of mages as party members entirely. As it is, battles may as well take place in out-of-sight hammerspace arenas a la old-school Final Fantasy, as no one reacts to any of your combat actions at all, apart from your enemies.

Alternatiely, do it properly - let everyone melee on a basic level, depending on the players abilities, with mundane being more able (and thereby more forgiving to play). Mages on the other hand have the failsave of being able to light people on fire, put face consequences when using their powers openly.

+150 Depth

:|

Which would result in most players just making parties made of warriors, rogues, and archery rogues (the latter filling out however many slots they'd typically assign to mages). That mages' default attacks are magic blasts from their staves doesn't help matters much.

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

"Openly," not so much. They just didn't take the idea that you're hiding your powers far enough to include it as a gameplay mechanic--which would have been cool, but would have had the unfortunate side-effect of discouraging the use of mages as party members entirely. As it is, battles may as well take place in out-of-sight hammerspace arenas a la old-school Final Fantasy, as no one reacts to any of your combat actions at all, apart from your enemies.

Alternatiely, do it properly - let everyone melee on a basic level, depending on the players abilities, with mundane being more able (and thereby more forgiving to play). Mages on the other hand have the failsave of being able to light people on fire, put face consequences when using their powers openly.

+150 Depth

:|

Which would result in most players just making parties made of warriors, rogues, and archery rogues (the latter filling out however many slots they'd typically assign to mages). That mages' default attacks are magic blasts from their staves doesn't help matters much.

The default attacks could be replaced you know - avoiding that mechanic, while completely viable, would simply lead to some fights, that don't happen on town-squares, you know the varterrall, the dragons, that stuff being much much harder, and tending to wounds without going home being much more difficult - in the system I propose anyway. In lore, magic is insanely powerful, and illegal. In gameplay, magic is archery with fancy lighting.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Half the reason I ever use mages is BECAUSE of the default attacks, though. God knows they wouldn't get much work done if they had to wait for a cooldown every time they wanted to damage something.

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Half the reason I ever use mages is BECAUSE of the default attacks, though. God knows they wouldn't get much work done if they had to wait for a cooldown every time they wanted to damage something.

Or you know... hit things with a stick. Or sword. Or dagger. Or bow...

[Pinely]

I both agree and disagree with the OP.  I disagree because, aside from the Cullen encounter, the game does a good job of mentioning you are a mage without beating you over the head with it.  I mean, that's the entire reason you go into the Deep Roads.  And by Act 2 you are too influential to be arrested without solid proof, which the Templars don't have until you defeat the Qunari.  By Act 3, Meredith is one step away from a complete rebellion and arresting the beloved Champion would be kicking the Hornet's nest.

I agree with the OP because it would not have been too difficult to work a Dwarf or Elf into the story.  For Elves, instead of a noble family, you'd have family in the alienage.  You could still get a house in Hightown, so long as you were suitably persecuted for it.  And the reason you become important in Act 2 is because of the Arishok, who doesn't seem to care about race.  It would be far simpler for Dwarves, though they wouldn't be nobility.

I don't think the reason was story so much as lack of time.  As in, we can't complete the story on time if we don't limit Hawke to being a Human.  That's my guess.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Half the reason I ever use mages is BECAUSE of the default attacks, though. God knows they wouldn't get much work done if they had to wait for a cooldown every time they wanted to damage something.

Or you know... hit things with a stick. Or sword. Or dagger. Or bow...

At which point the warriors and rogues would be the logical choice. Since, you know, they can defend themselves. Oh, wait, mages can do that, too! ...With magic. D'oh.

We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 23 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Suron]

Rogue Unit wrote...

Fine. You heard 'em, Bioware. Remove the mage class so people can whine about the loss of choice some more.

Seriously, are we bashimg DA2 for hand-waving the mage situation? In DAO, Connor, a possessed mage, wasn't ripped away from his family right away. His family had influence, that's why. Had he been some random Joe, the templars would have slaughteref him.

You could run around with Morrigan and preform blood in front of the KC and First Enchanter, yet no one bats an eye. Both games hand-waved the mage situation.

Connor wasn't ripped away because Isolde hid it and hired Jowan.  because she KNEW they WOULD take him.

Fact is..NO ONE..above a Warden..is above Chantry law regarding mages, the circle, apostates, and maleficarum....I'm done arguing with the blind about it personally.  delude yourselves all you want.
 
And as I said..if you could read...was that I wasn't looking for more restrictions and thought the ones they made (ONLY human, plus more) were taken to far.  I simply stated that being able to be a mage, in context of the story, is stupid.  There should be more reaction and whatnot for it.  Not idiotic hand-waving.  But again you'd get that if you could comprehend my post.

lol..I love the blind.  Either way, as I said..carry on the argument about Hawke being "above" the Chantry/Templars if you want..I'm done with it....you're wrong.  End of discussion.

[Naitaka]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

At which point the warriors and rogues would be the logical choice. Since, you know, they can defend themselves. Oh, wait, mages can do that, too! ...With magic. D'oh.

We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

Ever played Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? Or a Spellsword in AD&D? Heck even Gandalf fought with a sword and he's arguably one of the most prominent magic user in fiction.