175 réponses à ce sujet

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...


We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

We're not.
What you fail to grasp is that I propose a system different from the one we have, where fighting ability is determined by what the lore says, rather then by trying to shoehorn mmo-style gameplay into a singleplayer game.

[Arppis]

Naitaka wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

At which point the warriors and rogues would be the logical choice. Since, you know, they can defend themselves. Oh, wait, mages can do that, too! ...With magic. D'oh.

We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

Ever played Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? Or a Spellsword in AD&D? Heck even Gandalf fought with a sword and he's arguably one of the most prominent magic user in fiction.

Yeah, why should mage always use a staff?! C'mon people... Or godforbid if they use armor! Omigaad!

Dark Messiah was awesome game by the way!

[DalishRanger]

To me, gameplay does not always reflect what "actually" happened in the story. There's always an expectation of at least some inconsistency between the two, so I give some assumptions and leeway. I can think of several times a companion landed the killing blow on a creature like an ogre, but it was the Warden/Hawke who was credited with the slaying. So I take instances like that as the main character actually being the one to do the slaying.

And on that note, when I play a mage Hawke who fights with magic in broad daylight in the streets, I don't see the combat gameplay as reality. If no one comments on Hawke using magic during that fight (like helping Cullen with Wilmod), I assume Hawke didn't actually use magic and just attacked things with their staff. While in-game we usually see mages as the ones using staffs, I wouldn't be surprised if, lore-wise, there were people who had walking sticks, spears, etc. So I can see my Hawke getting away with it early on if he's actually careful about when and where he actually uses magic.

[Thomas Andresen]

The only part in which I agree is Hawke being a blood mage. No reactions makes nada sense. Using Hemorrhage right in front of the Knight-Captain would be sort of a give-away. Speaking of ... you say the animation makes no sense? Well, at least 50 % of the combat animations are more than a little over the top, so I don't seee why not.

You are overestimating the Templar Order. They are not all powerful, only as powerful as their support. They need the support from the ruler, and the nobility, even if it works the other way around, as well, so moving against Hawke while he/she is under the employ, and protection, of the Viscount can not be a decision taken lightly. Equally so when Hawke has the support of every noble in the city, and I don't see how "owed the Champion their lives" translates any differently, I doubt any of them are the type to be anything but grateful. You should also remember that after the Deep Roads expedition, Hawke became a Noble, practically making him/her part of the Kirkwall political elite.

There is something called "reading between the lines", it is very common, something most everyone do, in almost any situation, and is often expected by many writers. It is the readers ability to use their own imagination to fill the blank spaces, and the purpose of that brand of .. interpretation - is for the readers(or in this case, players) to make the story what they wants it to be. When a writer puts the blank spaces there on purpose, it is usually to give the audience (additional) opportunities to gain additional, personal connection to the story. When the blank spaces are an unintentional slip on the writers' side, peoples' ability to read between the lines gives the audience the opportunity to salvage a good story. So long as you want the story to be good, and most of it is, it will be good.

And when all else fails, remember the amount of writers who worked on this project. I don't remember a suitable english expression, but in Norway, we have one that roughly translates into something like "many chefs, a lot of mess". When there are that many writers on a project, the story will inevitably cringe somewhere. Failing is human, be fair. (And for once, for the sake of the thickheaded members of the forums, I'll point out that being fair does not mean "forgive every mistake BioWare ever made!")

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

It did bother me greatly that the only individuals to care that you are a mage are those Qunari you run into while making away with Ketojan.

[Frybread76]

Naitaka wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

At which point the warriors and rogues would be the logical choice. Since, you know, they can defend themselves. Oh, wait, mages can do that, too! ...With magic. D'oh.

We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

Ever played Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? Or a Spellsword in AD&D? Heck even Gandalf fought with a sword and he's arguably one of the most prominent magic user in fiction.

I agree with what you're saying.  However, to play Devil's Advocate, the developer's probably thought a mage who could fight with a sword would be too overpowered to fit into the role they have in the tank-dps-healer-mage combat in DA2.

[Kartikeya]

It's political. Meredith is powerful, but she's still beholden to politics. Act 1 has Hawke desperate for that mission in the Deep Roads either due to being a mage herself (she'll say something like I am not going to wake up in the Gallows), or because her sister is one. Hawke is an unknown, though it was pretty funny when she saved Cullen and he didn't bat an eye at the giant lightning storm that she used to do it. Oh, Cullen.

Act 2 has Hawke as a noble with both power and prestige. Does Meredith know about Hawke at this point? No telling. She definitely knows by the time she shows up (that look she gives Hawke is downright poisonous), but prior to this it's kind've murky who actually knows Hawke is a mage. And if she does know, or suspect, Hawke in Act 2 is immediately conscripted by the Viscount to go help with the growing Qunari issue, as the Arishok has specifically asked for her. Drag Hawke off to the Gallows then, and you risk pissing off the Qunari and destabilizing a very unstable situation (and pissing off the Viscount too, who, while not nearly so politically powerful, is still the ruling figurehead). And Hawke's getting a bit of a hero reputation by that point too.

Act 3, and everyone has to know Hawke is a mage, seeing as she just unleashed hell in front of all the nobles in Kirkwall. ...But all the nobles in Kirkwall therefore owe her their lives, everyone knows she's a badass, she's the second most powerful person in Kirkwall next to Meredith, and she's the Champion, a title very rarely bestowed on anyone. Again, note Meredith's face when she shows up to find all the nobles cheering for Hawke. If she could have murdered Hawke then and there, it's kind've obvious she would have.

That said, if you're anything but perfectly nice to Meredith in Act 3, she outright threatens you. If she can get Hawke to dance to her tune, then she can put aside that whole apostate thing (for the moment, it certainly doesn't seem as though that will last forever) in the name of bringing in other, less politically damaging apostates and having an extremely powerful person on her side.

Really, Meredith's a hypocrite. Is anyone all that surprised?

[Wulfram]

In fairness to Meredith, I think she honestly cares about Kirkwall and appreciates Hawke's efforts to save it. Doesn't mean she trusts apostate Hawke, but there is respect there.

[Uhh.. Jonah]

I guess helpful mages don't get sent to the Circle..

[Lithuasil]

Frybread76 wrote...

I agree with what you're saying.  However, to play Devil's Advocate, the developer's probably thought a mage who could fight with a sword would be too overpowered to fit into the role they have in the tank-dps-healer-mage combat in DA2.

While it would be easy enough to balance - you name the problem. MMO style teamcombat has absolutely not the slightest bit of business being in a singleplayer rpg. That's why we're arguing here.

[residentstevil]

I've just begun a mage playthrough and already I'm considering stopping this one. When I played Hawke as a Warrior or Rogue none of this stuff really mattered to me. Anders I figured because he was a Warden they couldn't apprehend him as easily do to some technicality. Bethany perhaps they were just daft and decided to get her after the Deep Roads.

But when I was playing as a mage and stopped started some templar missions I was like (YOU JUST SAW ME DO MAGIC, WHY ARENT YOU TRYING TO ARREST ME OR KILL ME ON THE SPOT!? STOP THANKING ME FOR ASSISTANCE, GOOD GOD WESLEY WAS DYING FROM DARKSPAWN CORRUPTION AND HE STILL WANTED TO TAKE ME AND MY SIS IN AND ONLY STOPPED BECAUSE AVELINE BARELY CONVINCED HIM THAT IT WAS MORE IMPORTANT TO FLEE FROM THE DARKSPAWN HORDE.... ok got that off my chest.

[Hunter-Wolf]

Some people really need to learn about real life politics to understand this .. it isn't all black and white ... the USA trained Taliban/Al Qaeda soldiers and sent the CIA to them to supply them with weapons and equipment in their war against the Soviet Union invasion of Afghanistan ... those very Taliban that are now "Al Qaeda Terrorists" and got invaded by a coalition of forces led by USA .. fact is .. Taliban never changed that much really .. Taliban/Al Qaeda before 9/11 were an extremist group but the USA was willing to use them to weaken the Soviet Union and prevent it from gaining more ground in Asia .. now that they have exhausted their uses and became harmful to USA interests .. it's time to clean up the place .. that's how things work in politics.

Don't see the Hawk Mage situation that different at all ... i don't see any problem with the templars making an exception for Hawk becasue he/she is useful to them .. if he/she prove to be more harmful than useful (like Taliban did) .. then he/she would be apprehended and forced to join the circle or worse ... there are always exceptions to rules and people ... and also .. let's not forget that there is always that gap between "gameplay" and "actual story events" .. fooling around and casting few random spells in-front of a Templar NPC doesn't make it part of the story .. that's just the player being silly ... if it isn't told in a story event it didn't happen "story-wise" .. simple as that.

Frankly this whole topic feels like a very poor attempt at nitpicking .. almost borders on trolling .. but not there yet.

[NvVanity]

Suron wrote...

Rogue Unit wrote...

Fine. You heard 'em, Bioware. Remove the mage class so people can whine about the loss of choice some more.

Seriously, are we bashimg DA2 for hand-waving the mage situation? In DAO, Connor, a possessed mage, wasn't ripped away from his family right away. His family had influence, that's why. Had he been some random Joe, the templars would have slaughteref him.

You could run around with Morrigan and preform blood in front of the KC and First Enchanter, yet no one bats an eye. Both games hand-waved the mage situation.

Connor wasn't ripped away because Isolde hid it and hired Jowan.  because she KNEW they WOULD take him.

Fact is..NO ONE..above a Warden..is above Chantry law regarding mages, the circle, apostates, and maleficarum....I'm done arguing with the blind about it personally.  delude yourselves all you want.
 
And as I said..if you could read...was that I wasn't looking for more restrictions and thought the ones they made (ONLY human, plus more) were taken to far.  I simply stated that being able to be a mage, in context of the story, is stupid.  There should be more reaction and whatnot for it.  Not idiotic hand-waving.  But again you'd get that if you could comprehend my post.

lol..I love the blind.  Either way, as I said..carry on the argument about Hawke being "above" the Chantry/Templars if you want..I'm done with it....you're wrong.  End of discussion.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Jazharah]

I think a quote from Isabela would be a fitting response from BioWare:

"Shush, you distract me with your logic"

</sarcasm>

[Sanguinerin]

Status, in Thedas, does not prevent a mage from being dragged off to the Circle. All mages, including those who are nobles, are stripped of their lands, titles, etc. and given to the Circle. That would include Hawke. Champion and Noble are acquired titles for Hawke, and titles would be stripped away. Wealth might mean something underground--paying off that templar who happens to notice that runed staff on your back before you can put it away--but wealth doesn't save any mage in the blatant public eye in Thedas.

Those who are allowed to operate outside of the Circle are people like Ines perhaps, Irving, or Wynne. These mages have proven themselves and their loyalty to the Circle. They seem to have a lot of wisdom and many years spent living under the Circle's rule.

From everything we're led to believe, status and wealth for a mage in Thedas does not matter. The only exception is directly in combat, one might not wish to turn a mage ally into an enemy. Why Meredith refuses to do anything to Hawke during the middle of the Qunari attack makes as much sense as to why Wesley didn't keep protesting about Hawke while fleeing Lothering.

For instance, if Alistair was suddenly found to have magical abilities, he would not be allowed to be king. He would be removed. By all lore accounts, that is the truth. That's why a mage can't be his queen, but merely his consort or mistress. If a king can't be a mage, then neither can a champion.

I personally love playing as mages. They are my favorite class. As far as execution of playing a mage in DAII though, it wasn't done that well. It was largely ignored. There should have been reactions and responses to being a mage when it was at many times quite blatant.

Am I willing to overlook this hole to play my mage? Yes.

Does this mean that I'm not upset that the developers didn't choose to make characters react to being a mage when the focus of a story is the Chantry, the mages, and the templars? No. Considering mages do play such a central role in the story, it would have definitely added more depth that I would have hoped for.

[Reidbynature]

There is a quite a lot to this story that doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Arppis wrote...
Yeah, why should mage always use a staff?! C'mon people... Or godforbid if they use armor! Omigaad!

Dark Messiah was awesome game by the way!

There are so many needless restrictions in DA2 that were standard fare in DA:O and there is very little if any logic to some of these restrictions for the most of it.  I especially mss Arcane Warrior.

Modifié par Reidbynature, 23 mars 2011 - 11:02 .

[Dean_the_Young]

HallowedWarden wrote...

Status, in Thedas, does not prevent a mage from being dragged off to the Circle.

Exception, of course, being in Kirkwall. Which itself is dysfunctional and non-representative of the Circle/Templar system in most of the rest of Thedas.

[DarkSpiral]

Suron wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The first act is entirely built around Hawke gathering enough wealth and prestige that the Templars cannot touch the mage Hawke (pc or bethany).

bs.

Bethany is taken by the Templars if you don't take her to the deep roads.

Bethany turns herself over to the Chantry.  Cullen flat out says so.

And "The Champion" is something of a cult of celebrity.  It's like a celebirty getting prferential treatment in the real world.  They don't have any power or influnce...except that people want to be their freinf, or don't want to be their enemy, so they are GIVEN a high degree of power and influence.

Well, that and the fact that Hawke, regardless of class choice, doe sin fact have a large amount of personal power in the form of martial skill, money, etc.  Meredith leave you alone, cheifly, because she'd be on shaky ground if she tried to arrest the person that just saved the city from invasion by heathens.

[Lekwid]

Suron wrote...
and as a side thing...why is there a codex entry that goes through the trouble of explaining why teleporting is impossible as a mage...yet EVERY mage just about teleports around the battlefield with no issues in this game?..but I digress.

I know, the most annoying thing ever.  Why can the other mages teleport and not me?  And they use it all the time!  Like it barely has a cooldown.

[Inzhuna]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Being "important" is not a good enough reason for the Templars to ignore an apostate or blood mage.

The most powerful mages have to earn a measure of leniency through years of proving themselves in the Circle. Being a "useful tool" or "the Champion" would be all the more reason for them to want to regulate your abilities and keep a watchful eye on that high level of power you wield.

It really doesn't make sense to play a mage in this game. It's all hand waving and convenience. Which is necessary to a point, yes, but this issue goes way beyond the petty hand-waves of the first game like not succumbing to darkspawn blood in battle.

This. I loved DAII but this really bugs me.

[DarkSpiral]

<snip>

For instance, if Alistair was suddenly found to have magical abilities, he would not be allowed to be king. He would be removed. By all lore accounts, that is the truth. That's why a mage can't be his queen, but merely his consort or mistress. If a king can't be a mage, then neither can a champion.

I agree with most of your comments, except this one.  A Mage, I belive, most certainly can be a Champion, because of what the title means.  It isn't an official rank, nor a noble title.  It doesn't inherently come with any sort of authority (although influence certainly is aquired by anyone acknowledged as a Champion) It's a recognition that someone has done something important for the city on a level a single person normally cannot achieve.  It isn't even a title with expectations of good/evil.  The codex entry makes that clear.  It would be like saying a mage can't be an actor.  It's unlikely to happen under normal circumstances, but Champions (and uh...mages that are actors, I guess ) don't come about because of normal circumstances in the first place.

Now.  Here is a question.  Should the...let's call it protection....an apostate mage, who has been named Champion, has within Kirkwall apply elsewhere?  I would say no.  If Hawke were to travel to Orlais, for example, being the Champion of Kirkwall probably has all the protection the Aveline aquires from being Captain of the Guard when you're facing down a high dragon.  Location matters.

Ferelden migh be a different matter, but that's largely because in my game King Alistair is protecting mages from the Circle.  Which most likely isn't endearing him to the new Divine, regardelss of how much in favor of peace she may normally be.

Modifié par DarkSpiral, 24 mars 2011 - 02:05 .

[Sanguinerin]

@DarkSpiral,

I should have stated something else. A Circle mage, who is already entrusted enough to have been allowed enough freedom to act outside of the tower, could possibly become a champion. Even an apostate hero who rose up in a difficult time could theoretically be praised as a champion, hero, savior, etc.

However, that doesn't mean that there aren't certain rules clearly established with "what the Order dictates", to quote Wesley, about apostates. Perhaps some freedoms would be granted to such a person, but I doubt that any apostate mage hero would simply be given such absolute freedoms.

I'll be more understanding to the cause, certainly, so that I can still play my mage characters. I can say that social pressures are keeping me relatively free. I'd like to see instances of that, but I can wave it off.

On another note, I do believe that any mage using blood magic publicly should be taken in immediately. It's inexcusable even of the champion, if we are to actually believe that the plot in front of us is taking place. If I can cast blood magic in front of Cullen or Meredith, it should be game over--or time to escape from imprisonment in the Gallows. The entire drama is between templars and mages, especially blood mages. Having the specialization in the first place was probably a poor choice to begin with.

Also, there should be penalties for casting magic before gaining champion status in public. An interrupt between jumping locations where you're bombarded by templars or something. If this were Origins, where mages weren't up front and center, then I could dismiss the hand-waving at ignoring this. However, having absolutely no reaction greatly breaks the immersion of the game in my opinion. Acknowledgement would have been nice.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Lithuasil wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...


We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

We're not.
What you fail to grasp is that I propose a system different from the one we have, where fighting ability is determined by what the lore says, rather then by trying to shoehorn mmo-style gameplay into a singleplayer game.

What you fail to grasp is that when you're reduced to having your mage swat everything with a goddamn knife, there's no reason to have a mage in your party at all. Which is what I've been saying. Three times, now.

If it were possible to multi-class, that would be a different story.

[Lithuasil]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Nathan Redgrave wrote...


We're arguing in circles, here. You know that, right?

We're not.
What you fail to grasp is that I propose a system different from the one we have, where fighting ability is determined by what the lore says, rather then by trying to shoehorn mmo-style gameplay into a singleplayer game.

What you fail to grasp is that when you're reduced to having your mage swat everything with a goddamn knife, there's no reason to have a mage in your party at all. Which is what I've been saying. Three times, now.

If it were possible to multi-class, that would be a different story.

Try re-reading what I wrote. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[Gadarr]

Nathan Redgrave wrote...
What you fail to grasp is that when you're reduced to having your mage swat everything with a goddamn knife, there's no reason to have a mage in your party at all. Which is what I've been saying. Three times, now.

If it were possible to multi-class, that would be a different story.

There would be. For all those occasions where a fight doesn't occur under the watchful eyes of the Templars, or even where it's witnessed by others. And there are... plenty of fights where exactly this is the case. The argument is for an integration of gamplay mechanics into the actual story, not for mages to not use magic. Hey, you could, if you wanted to. You'd just have to live with the consequences and be a Circle mage from the point of discovery on or whatever.

There's just no reason why a mage couldn't or wouldn't use a sword or an axe or a dagger when necessary (just not as proficiently as a trained warrior of course, but that's what skill trees are for, right?), in case you'd want to remain an apostate.

Modifié par Gadarr, 24 mars 2011 - 12:41 .