244 réponses à ce sujet

[dzizass]

Akulakhan wrote...


Remember that you are saying something like this:

RPG BECAUSE HAS STORY AND CHOICES!
NOT RPG BECAUSE UH... PLAYS LIKE A RPG!
or
RPG BECAUSE THEY CREATE THEIR OWN STORY
NOT RPG BECAUSE THEY ARE PLAYING WITH A PRE-MADE CAMPAIGN

Please
quote exactly where I said that story is what defines an RPG.
Seriously.

I've written, quite clearly, that  plot and dialogues are the
key factors for an RPG. In other words, good dialogues and good plot
are what really decides whether an RPG is good
or not.  There are dialogues and stories in books you know. It doesn't mean that books are RPGs. Systems (or ruleset, as you call it)
are only means of telling a story and they can be better (Fallout1/2) or worse (Planescape).
Also
P:T doesn't use D&D3.5 but an adaptation AD&D and the outcome
of adapting that system for the game, that is the ruleset of the
computer game, is pretty bad.

So you are saying that Assassin's Creed 2 is a RPG because you play the
role of Enzio, chose if you want to be more stealthy or agressive and
spend points into things? Or maybe all these Sierra adventures are too
RPGs beacause you can chose what to say?

No, that's what you're saying.

[Akulakhan]

dzizass wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...


Remember that you are saying something like this:

RPG BECAUSE HAS STORY AND CHOICES!
NOT RPG BECAUSE UH... PLAYS LIKE A RPG!
or
RPG BECAUSE THEY CREATE THEIR OWN STORY
NOT RPG BECAUSE THEY ARE PLAYING WITH A PRE-MADE CAMPAIGN

Please
quote exactly where I said that story is what defines an RPG.
Seriously.

I've written, quite clearly, that  plot and dialogues are the
key factors for an RPG. In other words, good dialogues and good plot
are what really decides whether an RPG is good
or not.  There are dialogues and stories in books you know. It doesn't mean that books are RPGs. Systems (or ruleset, as you call it)
are only means of telling a story and they can be better (Fallout1/2) or worse (Planescape).
Also
P:T doesn't use D&D3.5 but an adaptation AD&D and the outcome
of adapting that system for the game, that is the ruleset of the
computer game, is pretty bad.

So you are saying that Assassin's Creed 2 is a RPG because you play the
role of Enzio, chose if you want to be more stealthy or agressive and
spend points into things? Or maybe all these Sierra adventures are too
RPGs beacause you can chose what to say?

No, that's what you're saying.

No, good story and dialogues help to decides whether a game is good or not, but they are not necessary do make a good game. They don't need to be there to make a RPG either, otherwise roguelikes and a great deal of dungeon crawlers would not be RPGs.
A solid RPG just need a ruleset, dices, and character skills above player skills. Plot and dialogues are good but every other game genre have them too. In no way they are "key factors" that will decide if the game is a RPG or if it's good or not, they are just there to give the player motivation to move forward and achieve an objective.

Actually, if you get mainstream games, of almost any genre, plot and dialogues are elements so basic that is laughable that someone consider them "key factors" when trying to determine a genre.

dzizass wrote...

So you are saying that Assassin's Creed 2 is a RPG because you play the
role of Enzio, chose if you want to be more stealthy or agressive and
spend points into things? Or maybe all these Sierra adventures are too
RPGs beacause you can chose what to say?

No, that's what you're saying.

But mang, you said that story and dialogue are key factors of a RPG, these games have them too so they must be RPG amrite!?

Modifié par Akulakhan, 24 mars 2011 - 08:50 .

[SirSwordBlaster]

Deified Data wrote...

SirSwordBlaster wrote...

And for the fanboys, ¿Do I have to say sorry for being dissapointed after years of waiting with expectation a REAL sequel of a game that i wouldn't not sell for 10000$ if mine was the last copy?

[fanboy]No, no apologies necessary. I just don't understand why you're still posting here is all. Just how much do you have to vent, exactly? Wouldn't your time be better spent playing an RPG you enjoy as opposed to whining about one you hate? Are you trying to change the minds of people who already played and enjoyed DAII (a futile effort), or are you trying to validate your opinion through mob mentality?[/fanboy]

¿Why shouldn't i post my oppinion? It's a thread about a review and that's my point of view. My post wasn't offensive nor hostile, just critical. If it sounded like, well, maybe i should take care with my english (not my native language).
If you read my post, you'll see that if i've never played DAO, i would give a 8.5 to this game. ¿have you read anything about me hating this game? No sense on discussion about what to do with our time. It's pointless. I could tell you ' Wouldn't your time be better spent playing DAO2 as opposed to be writing about it?'.
I repeat i'm not hater, but if i was i see no reason why not to write oppinions. That's freedom of speech and think. Bio is a company, DAO2 is a product, if someone buy the product turns into a client and a client can have an oppinion about his bought product, constructive or destructive.
I don't think my oppinion was destructive, as you suggest. I just meant to say that, in my oppinion, if someone (like have been my case) thinks that this will be a better game than DAO maybe will be as dissapointed as i am. Come on, even on some interviews I have read (no clue right now if was developer or someone from board) recognized that changes on DAO2 is a risky bet Bio has done.
¿Influence on minds? Well, i never let anyone think for me. If someone change his mind for every post he read, probably will be changing his mind every few minutes.
Seeing your [fanboy] tags, i think that maybe it could be that we have different oppinions on what we consider a fanboy. For me a fanboy is someone that defends something beyond neutral judgement. For me fanboys are somehow guilty of decrement of quality on products. Companies are all about earning more money and reducing costs. If a company thinks 'Hey, why are we spending all this money and efforts to make progressive quality products if our clients would buy and love everything we do? Let's make our next game on 16bits playable with DosBox. If they don't care cause they always loves us, why should we?' That's fanboys (and hateboys in a different way) to me.
Nonsense about the mob comment. If oppinions are not to be seen, just close up every forum and blog worldwide and let's just everyone talk only to ourselves.

Anyway, if you consider DAO2 a better product than DAO i really would like to hear your oppinion. I can give you my reasons to be dissapointed if you like.
It's silly to give a 2.5 to this game, but i hope that and other reviews will force Bio to make DAO3 what DAO2 should have been, and that's it a better game than DAO.

Regards. 

[SirSwordBlaster]

randName wrote...

SirSwordBlaster wrote...
Dragon Age Origins is one of the best RPGs ever made.

Opinions - I have at least 10 RPGs I'd place before DA:O, and several of those are from BW.

So you find DA:O to be one of the best RPGs ever made, but you seem to claim it to be universally so (Many of my old cRPG friends would just laugh at that, I don't since I like DA:O) 

Hey, it is for me!. RPGs are, in my oppinion, all about personal experience (like old pen-and-paper was). And DAO made me cry, laugh, thrill and suffer (a lot) more than others (and i have in my shelve every Bio RPG game).

I don't have ranking of favourites. Every great game have its own style not comparable to others.

If i had to say a little list of my favourite RPG games i have played i would say (in the order that comes to my mind): Planescape, Fallout series, Deus Ex (the 1st), every Ultima game (except VIII), Anachronox, Thunderscape, Baldurs Gate, FF7, Wizardry 8, NWN1&2, Jade Empire, Kotor 1 & 2, Shadow over Riva, Morrowind, Oblivion, Vampire Bloodlines, Gothic 1 to 3, ME1 & 2, Baldur's Gate, Divinity series, The Witcher, even Gorky 17! etc, etc.

Anyway, i recognize that maybe the problem was my expectation about DAO2. Reading some oppinions sometimes i think i may be one of few persons that thinks that a second part of a game must be better than its predecessor.

[Akulakhan]

RPG Codex review is out. Surprisely much more fair than OP review.
http://www.rpgcodex....tent.php?id=224

[v_ware]

Akulakhan wrote...

RPG Codex review is out. Surprisely much more fair than OP review.
http://www.rpgcodex....tent.php?id=224

That very last reference was just fantastic.

Lenghty article, they surely hate with devotion over there. (didn't read it, I've allready heard all hate arguments on DA2 )

Modifié par v_ware, 24 mars 2011 - 09:26 .

[Akulakhan]

v_ware wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...

RPG Codex review is out. Surprisely much more fair than OP review.
http://www.rpgcodex....tent.php?id=224

That very last reference was just fantastic.

Agreed.

[dzizass]

Akulakhan wrote...

No, good story and dialogues help to decides whether a game is good or not, but they are not necessary do make a good game. They don't need to be there to make a RPG either, otherwise roguelikes and a great deal of dungeon crawlers would not be RPGs.
A solid RPG just need a ruleset, dices, and character skills above player skills. Plot and dialogues are good but every other game genre have them too. In no way they are "key factors" that will decide if the game is a RPG or if it's good or not, they are just there to give the player motivation to move forward and achieve an objective.

Actually, if you get mainstream games, of almost any genre, plot and dialogues are elements so basic that is laughable that someone consider them "key factors" when trying to determine a genre.

ROTFL. You fail at reading comprehension. Still, I'll write that again for you: nowhere did I write that a game without a good plot can't be an RPG. Only that it will be a bad RPG.
1. Good writing is necessary to make a good RPG. Period. I have never ever played a good RPG which wasn't well written in terms of plot/dialogues.
2. Diablo is not an RPG.
3. Honestly, PnP RPGs don't really need a set ruleset. I've played a few narration-oriented RPG sessions without any character sheets, notes or anything like that.

But mang, you said that story and dialogue are key factors of a RPG, these games have them too so they must be RPG amrite!?

No, you just fail at reading.

Modifié par dzizass, 25 mars 2011 - 01:43 .

[Akulakhan]

dzizass wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...

No, good story and dialogues help to decides whether a game is good or not, but they are not necessary do make a good game. They don't need to be there to make a RPG either, otherwise roguelikes and a great deal of dungeon crawlers would not be RPGs.
A solid RPG just need a ruleset, dices, and character skills above player skills. Plot and dialogues are good but every other game genre have them too. In no way they are "key factors" that will decide if the game is a RPG or if it's good or not, they are just there to give the player motivation to move forward and achieve an objective.

Actually, if you get mainstream games, of almost any genre, plot and dialogues are elements so basic that is laughable that someone consider them "key factors" when trying to determine a genre.

ROTFL. You fail at reading comprehension. Still, I'll write that again for you: nowhere did I write that a game without a good plot can't be an RPG. Only that it will be a bad RPG.
1. Good writing is necessary to make a good RPG. Period. I have never ever played a good RPG which wasn't well written in terms of plot/dialogues.
2. Diablo is not an RPG.
3. Honestly, PnP RPGs don't really need a set ruleset. I've played a few narration-oriented RPG sessions without any character sheets, notes or anything like that.

But mang, you said that story and dialogue are key factors of a RPG, these games have them too so they must be RPG amrite!?

No, you just fail at reading.

1. Why? So you not played much, your lack of experience only shows how much you are limited to the retarded Bioware concept that RPGs are "games with story" or "multiple dialogues", the same dev that consider Call of Duty and Assissin's Creed RPGs.
2. Who is talking about Diablo or anything similar? You really know what you are talking about?
3. So you are talking about improvised theatre or larping? But where is the stats? The dice rolls? The rules? The skill checks? The tactical gameplay? Where is everything that distinguishes RPGs from the others genres?



No, I can read pretty well.

dzizass wrote...

2 key elements for an RPG: better story and better dialogues.

[dzizass]

Akulakhan wrote...

1. Why? So you not played much, your lack of experience only shows how much you are limited to the retarded Bioware concept that RPGs are "games with story" or "multiple dialogues", the same dev that consider Call of Duty and Assissin's Creed RPGs.
2. Who is talking about Diablo or anything similar? You really know what you are talking about?
3. So you are talking about improvised theatre or larping? But where is the stats? The dice rolls? The rules? The skill checks? The tactical gameplay? Where is everything that distinguishes RPGs from the others genres?

0. You fail at reading on every turn. You argue with things I've never written, even though I've repeated them quite a few times for your convenience.
1. Go back to point 0. I have never written anything like that, you're arguing with somebody else. Your imaginary friend, perhaps?
2.  Who's talking about Diablo? You are. With your definition of the genre Diablo is the quintessence of RPG. Let me quote that for you

A solid RPG just need a ruleset, dices, and character skills above
player skills. Plot and dialogues are good but every other game genre
have them too.

Of course the computer doesn't roll dice it just creates random numbers.

3. No, about RPG. No acting skill nor dressing up involved. Contrary to your belief, role playing isn't about killing things. The only thing needed for such game is gamers with a bit of experience and enough self-discipline not to declare doing things which would be out of their role. Stats are just a means of delivering a narration.

Also please learn how to quote properly so that your every post doesn't look like a mess.

[FrozenDawn]

lol those quotes hit the spot so perfectly - ROFL

still even with it's faults and great disappointments, the game is absolutely above average.
Just not really good.

[Akulakhan]

dzizass wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...

1. Why? So you not played much, your lack of experience only shows how much you are limited to the retarded Bioware concept that RPGs are "games with story" or "multiple dialogues", the same dev that consider Call of Duty and Assissin's Creed RPGs.
2. Who is talking about Diablo or anything similar? You really know what you are talking about?
3. So you are talking about improvised theatre or larping? But where is the stats? The dice rolls? The rules? The skill checks? The tactical gameplay? Where is everything that distinguishes RPGs from the others genres?

0. You fail at reading on every turn. You argue with things I've never written, even though I've repeated them quite a few times for your convenience.
1. Go back to point 0. I have never written anything like that, you're arguing with somebody else. Your imaginary friend, perhaps?
2.  Who's talking about Diablo? You are. With your definition of the genre Diablo is the quintessence of RPG. Let me quote that for you

A solid RPG just need a ruleset, dices, and character skills above
player skills. Plot and dialogues are good but every other game genre
have them too.

Of course the computer doesn't roll dice it just creates random numbers.

3. No, about RPG. No acting skill nor dressing up involved. Contrary to your belief, role playing isn't about killing things. The only thing needed for such game is gamers with a bit of experience and enough self-discipline not to declare doing things which would be out of their role. Stats are just a means of delivering a narration.

Also please learn how to quote properly so that your every post doesn't look like a mess.

No? You said cleary that one of the key/major/most important elements for a RPG to be good is plot/dialogues. So how you explian that there is a great deal of games, even sub-genres like roguelikes, that don't have plot and dialogues. Yes, plot and dialogue is good, but in no way they are key elements to determine if the RPG is worth of play. Get a indie roguelike like UnReal World as exemple, the only dialogue in the game is basically an "yes/no" when you try to recruit someone to your party, and the game don't have plot, it's just about surviving in a harsh world.

Solid doesn't means that it's good or bad, simply means that it achieve what is aiming for. Diablo is a (oversimplified) ARPG, there's no question on that, it have a ruleset and dicerolls and uses both to determine the outcome of most of the player actions, it's just too fast-paced and dependent on player reflexes.

Not only combat but everything that is determined by the player stats and dice rolls. Bah, combat (and other smallers things like world interaction) is the moment that you will use the RPG elements of your RPG, without that you will be only telling a story and your friends will be complementing it from time to time. The RPG game itself originates from combat only table-top wargames, just add some characters in a dungeon instead of squads on the battlefield and some modification on the ruleset and you will have a RPG. You don't need plot and dialogues to play a RPG, you need a ruleset and dices and moments that you use it.

dzizass wrote...

Also please learn how to quote properly so that your every post doesn't look like a mess.

Want it on a silver plate, miss? You need to be careful to not hurt your eyes.

[dzizass]

Akulakhan wrote...

No? You said cleary that one of the key/major/most important elements for a RPG to be good is plot/dialogues. So how you explian that there is a great deal of games, even sub-genres like roguelikes, that don't have plot and dialogues. Yes, plot and dialogue is good, but in no way they are key elements to determine if the RPG is worth of play. Get a indie roguelike like UnReal World as exemple, the only dialogue in the game is basically an "yes/no" when you try to recruit someone to your party, and the game don't have plot, it's just about surviving in a harsh world.

Solid doesn't means that it's good or bad, simply means that it achieve what is aiming for. Diablo is a (oversimplified) ARPG, there's no question on that, it have a ruleset and dicerolls and uses both to determine the outcome of most of the player actions, it's just too fast-paced and dependent on player reflexes.

Not only combat but everything that is determined by the player stats and dice rolls. Bah, combat (and other smallers things like world interaction) is the moment that you will use the RPG elements of your RPG, without that you will be only telling a story and your friends will be complementing it from time to time. The RPG game itself originates from combat only table-top wargames, just add some characters in a dungeon instead of squads on the battlefield and some modification on the ruleset and you will have a RPG. You don't need plot and dialogues to play a RPG, you need a ruleset and dices and moments that you use it.

So what makes an RPG different from a battle game is that you have a dungeon instead of a battlefield and single characters instead of units? ROTFL. I suppose you should put that in your signature, so that people don't bother  discussing anything with you.

[BiowareIsFtl]

dzizass wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...

No? You said cleary that one of the key/major/most important elements for a RPG to be good is plot/dialogues. So how you explian that there is a great deal of games, even sub-genres like roguelikes, that don't have plot and dialogues. Yes, plot and dialogue is good, but in no way they are key elements to determine if the RPG is worth of play. Get a indie roguelike like UnReal World as exemple, the only dialogue in the game is basically an "yes/no" when you try to recruit someone to your party, and the game don't have plot, it's just about surviving in a harsh world.

Solid doesn't means that it's good or bad, simply means that it achieve what is aiming for. Diablo is a (oversimplified) ARPG, there's no question on that, it have a ruleset and dicerolls and uses both to determine the outcome of most of the player actions, it's just too fast-paced and dependent on player reflexes.

Not only combat but everything that is determined by the player stats and dice rolls. Bah, combat (and other smallers things like world interaction) is the moment that you will use the RPG elements of your RPG, without that you will be only telling a story and your friends will be complementing it from time to time. The RPG game itself originates from combat only table-top wargames, just add some characters in a dungeon instead of squads on the battlefield and some modification on the ruleset and you will have a RPG. You don't need plot and dialogues to play a RPG, you need a ruleset and dices and moments that you use it.

So what makes an RPG different from a battle game is that you have a dungeon instead of a battlefield and single characters instead of units? ROTFL. I suppose you should put that in your signature, so that people don't bother  discussing anything with you.

I laughed.

[Akulakhan]

dzizass wrote...

Akulakhan wrote...

No? You said cleary that one of the key/major/most important elements for a RPG to be good is plot/dialogues. So how you explian that there is a great deal of games, even sub-genres like roguelikes, that don't have plot and dialogues. Yes, plot and dialogue is good, but in no way they are key elements to determine if the RPG is worth of play. Get a indie roguelike like UnReal World as exemple, the only dialogue in the game is basically an "yes/no" when you try to recruit someone to your party, and the game don't have plot, it's just about surviving in a harsh world.

Solid doesn't means that it's good or bad, simply means that it achieve what is aiming for. Diablo is a (oversimplified) ARPG, there's no question on that, it have a ruleset and dicerolls and uses both to determine the outcome of most of the player actions, it's just too fast-paced and dependent on player reflexes.

Not only combat but everything that is determined by the player stats and dice rolls. Bah, combat (and other smallers things like world interaction) is the moment that you will use the RPG elements of your RPG, without that you will be only telling a story and your friends will be complementing it from time to time. The RPG game itself originates from combat only table-top wargames, just add some characters in a dungeon instead of squads on the battlefield and some modification on the ruleset and you will have a RPG. You don't need plot and dialogues to play a RPG, you need a ruleset and dices and moments that you use it.

So what makes an RPG different from a battle game is that you have a dungeon instead of a battlefield and single characters instead of units? ROTFL. I suppose you should put that in your signature, so that people don't bother  discussing anything with you.

Oh wow look how different they are!







"Battle game" It's hard to maintain a discussion with people that don't have a clue about what they are talking.

btw, have you seen that new RPG that come out other day, Bulletstorm I think. You cam play the role of a guy that kick alian ass. Remember a lot that other oldschool RPG called Duke Nukem where the plot is basically the main character rescuing chiks from aliens.

Modifié par Akulakhan, 26 mars 2011 - 10:24 .

[dzizass]

del

Too absurd to discuss.

Modifié par dzizass, 27 mars 2011 - 11:22 .

[Phazor58]

Approximately 22 hours of play were devoted to the single-player mode, and the game was completed.

I'm at 22 hours and I've barely started Act 2.  I don't think they explored the game as well as they should have, esepcially to have taken this long to write the review.

Modifié par Phazor58, 27 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Wow, even I'm suprised at the 2.5/10. I am deffinitely not a fan of what occured in DA 2 but I would at least give it a 5.5/10.

[Riloux]

A game this bad from a company like Bioware deserves a low review.