92 réponses à ce sujet

[Naitaka]

Svest wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Then he would have said his Hawke was a atheist. He explicitly state that it's his personal view on the subject.

Ahh yes I'm sorry, I completely forgot that the first rule of roleplaying is that the character must never have anything in common with the player in any way and in fact must always act in the exact opposite way that the player would.  My bad...

Nice strawman you got there. :happy:

[ToJKa1]

apantoliani wrote...

Best line related: Can I just meet one non-crazy mage this week? Just one?

I think it was "Can't i go one week without meeting an insane mage? Just one?"

Still, the mages are pretty badly demonised (no pun intended) in the game, especially the third act.

[Svest]

Naitaka wrote...
Nice strawman you got there. :happy:

Actually its not a strawman.  Simply the logical conclusion drawn from your comments.  All you know is he and his character agree on something.  You have no information about anything else yet you make assumptions.  Saying he's roleplaying wrong based on nothing more than the knowledge that he and his character are in agreement is in fact saying it is wrong for for the player and the character to agree.

[LyletheBloody]

I went with the Mages. They are infinitely more likable than the Knight-Commander-**** Meredith.

[DKJaigen]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Or a better question; who would side with the mages? 90% of them are all blood mages and it backs the Templars who say "once they have a taste of freedom, they think they can do what they want." So who actually sided with the mages because they wanted to and not just to see the game play out differently? I sided with The Templars in Origins and I did the same in DA2 and I'll do the same again.

90% you fight are bloodmages. it doesn't mean that 90% ARE bloodmages. and being a bloodmage isnt bad as long as you use blood magic for the right reasons. in my opnion killing a bunch of people because of the actions of one man doesnt seem justified.

[Naitaka]

Svest wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Nice strawman you got there. :happy:

Actually its not a strawman.  Simply the logical conclusion drawn from your comments.  All you know is he and his character agree on something.  You have no information about anything else yet you make assumptions.  Saying he's roleplaying wrong based on nothing more than the knowledge that he and his character are in agreement is in fact saying it is wrong for for the player and the character to agree.

Wrong, he made no mention of his character what-so-ever in his post, all we KNOW was that he personally was disgusted by the fanatics and that influenced his decision to side with the mages, to which I half jokingly commented as not roleplaying correctly, apparently you're turning it into a personal battle of sorts?

[Eternal Phoenix]

DKJaigen wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

Or a better question; who would side with the mages? 90% of them are all blood mages and it backs the Templars who say "once they have a taste of freedom, they think they can do what they want." So who actually sided with the mages because they wanted to and not just to see the game play out differently? I sided with The Templars in Origins and I did the same in DA2 and I'll do the same again.

90% you fight are bloodmages. it doesn't mean that 90% ARE bloodmages. and being a bloodmage isnt bad as long as you use blood magic for the right reasons. in my opnion killing a bunch of people because of the actions of one man doesnt seem justified.

I know. My mage in DA:O became a blood mage so he could save the world (or at least I had that reason in mind when I gave those abilities to him). Regardless - he's a Grey Warden and stronger than these other mages who will eventually unleash their demons. Even he himself could unleash demons. So even if the reason is good - it always ends the same.

Killing every mage is wrong but Cullan himself mentions that to Meredith. So people can still side with Templars and still have compassion for mages. During the ending act there are dialogue options to say that killing all mages is wrong.

Still, the events in DA2 shows that the Templars will always be needed. Get rid of them and you will get mages who will practice blood magic. Just one mage who becomes an abomination can destroy an entire town. This again was shown in DA:O.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 23 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Svest]

Naitaka wrote...

Wrong, he made no mention of his character what-so-ever in his post, all we KNOW was that he personally was disgusted by the fanatics and that influenced his decision to side with the mages, to which I half jokingly commented as not roleplaying correctly, apparently you're turning it into a personal battle of sorts?

Like I said, all you knew was he and his Hawke have a similar stance on fanatics.  You have no idea how he is roleplaying his character.  In fact roleplaying as "how would I react in that situation" is perfectly valid.  The only way to roleplay "wrong" is not to separate player knowledge from character knowledge.  You decided to call him out on playing wrong without knowing anything about how he actually plays.  So I decided to call you out on your lack of knowledge.  Seems fair to me.

[Badger8126]

I was really conflicted by this choice, I had supported the mages throughout the game, even romanced Merrill and supported Anders, let that half elf boy go off to tervinter, I didn't even hate bloodmagic after mother got killed.

But the circle was broken, I couldn't just let that many traumatized mages on the edge run free through the streets without templars, in the end I asked myself what Bethany would want me to do so I sided with the templars. (Bethany died in the deeproads)

Meredith might have broken the circle but that didn't seem like a good reason to set them free, better to treat the next circle better IMO.
Although act 3 did do its best to poison me against the circle mages it didn't make me hate magic in general.
Anders' little stunt did make a difference, it made me turn on him instantly and maybe the mages too.

[Patriciachr34]

If the Chantry really let mages serve man, i.e. sent healers to outlying villages and alienages, sent mages to help defend the poor and weak, allowed mages to research for the betterment of society at large; then I would have no problem with the system. However, the chantry allows the Templars to abuse mages and teaches that magic is a sin. This is not "serving man", but oppressing, imprisoning, and enslaving a population of people. This is why I will always side with the mages.

[OdinTGE]

Has anybody played a mage and sided with the Templars? Considering NPCs can't see that you're a mage I suppose that's an option yes?

[highcastle]

I side with the mages every time. Every time. I won't side with the templars, not even for the achievement. I just don't agree on principle, and I don't want to play a character who agrees.

Here's the thing. You can agree or disagree with Anders. I've done a few plays now, and while I tend to spare him when he's Hawke's LI, I've also killed him. He's the one responsible for blowing up the Chantry. Just him, not other mages. Yet Meredith's call for the Right of Annulment comes because of Anders' actions. She's not responding to a specific mage threat or anything the Circle did, she's blaming them for the actions of one outside their control. That flat out makes no sense. If anyone should be held responsible, it's Anders. Don't punish people who weren't involved just because they share the same traits. (We do it anyway. Look at discrimination towards Arabs and Muslims after 9/11, even those who oppose fanaticism.)

As for charges of blood magic. Yes, we encounter plenty of blood mages throughout the game. We also encounter non-blood mages. Think of Feneriel (sp?). Think of Alain. Not all mages turn to blood magic. And those who do are almost always shown to have their backs against the wall. They're desperate. They're out of options. Clearly the Circle was horrendous or they would not be willing to risk themselves to avoid going back. And up to this point in the game, Orsino is not known to be a blood mage. A very savvy Hawke might find the note to Quentin signed O somewhat suspect, but it's far from proof. We don't even know if Orsino was truly a blood mage before the events at the Gallows, or if acted out of desperation.

The bottom line, though, is that Meredith seeks to punish everyone for the actions of one man who's only tangentially connected to the Circle. I know why some people might want to side with her. I can understand that mages are dangerous. But I think her reasons for attacking the mages at this stage are based on faulty logic, and thus I can't support them.

[Kartikeya]

From what I understand, Orsino knew Quentin existed and had been exchanging letters with him, knew about his research, but there's nothing to say if he knew how Quentin was using this research and certainly no reason to believe that he knew before the fact that Leandra would be targetted (and at that point, he has no idea who Hawke is anyway). He might have. He might not. Given how easily Meredith leaps to using the acts of a mage completely unconnected to the Kirkwall circle as a reason to kill the entire Circle, the ugly thing is that he may well have been right that if he'd said anything she'd have used it against them. Who knows?

Even if Orsino was an active participant though, I can't understand why this would be a reason to side with the Templars. First, you don't know this until you reach him, so it's metagaming knowledge from a prior playthrough. Second, the Right of Annulment is very very very clear. Yes, you can end up sparing some mages, but there's nothing that guarantees that when you make the choice, and the only way any mages have a possibility of being spared who don't run into Hawke are if the other Templars are deliberately disobeying orders. The Right of Annulment exists specifically to wipe out every member of a Circle. The end. You don't see them, but there are children in the Kirkwall Circle, just like there were in the Ferelden one (and if you use the Right of Annulment there, that includes them too.) Look at how young many of the mages, Orsino included, are said to be when they're taken to the Circle. Remember that at this point, the Kirkwall Circle also includes every non-Apostate mage in the Free Marches. There isn't a Circle per city-state. Kirkwall has been the center of things from the start, and Starkhaven was the only other city with a Circle (and the survivors who didn't escape from that one are moved to Kirkwall). If you side with the mages at least, Varric says that many survive and flee to other Circles, so all of those mages you see in the last fight aren't even a majority. That's a lot of mages to be sentencing to death over the actions of an apostate mage who has never been a part of them, or, if you're metagaming, to spite their First Enchanter.

I can't justify a Hawke who isn't a mage-phobic **** siding with Meredith at the point you're made to choose. The guilty culprit is standing two feet away from her and has offered a full confession, the First Enchanter freaks out and condemns him too, then begs Meredith to change her mind ("Do whatever you want. Search the tower! I'll help you."), and her response is to sentence everyone to death. She doesn't even try to kill Anders. She doesn't even attempt to make sure he's going to be killed. She doesn't care who did it.

[Exile Isan]

I sided with the mages because Meredith was using Anders "red beam in the sky" as an excuse to annul the Circle, something I think she'd been wanting to do for a long time and was just waiting for an incident big enough that she could get away with it. Also I take issue with the fact that she didn't even take Anders into custody didn't even bother to punish him at all. Simply walks away from him while barely batting an eyelash. Even Sebastian realizes the difference between Anders and the Circle of Magi and who is the guilty party.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 23 mars 2011 - 07:32 .

[mopotter]

I have sided with the mages twice. Once because of Bethany and once because I'm playing a mage. But by the end of the game both times I'm ready to throw my hands up and yell what is with you people. I'm supporting you because not all mages do Blood Magic, but you all are all trying to prove me wrong.

I really dislike this. I especially dislikes when Orsino does his thing. Templars are no better, Meredith with her evil sword. The game story was really very interesting and enjoyable for the most part until this.

I'll be siding with the templars next time and send Bethany to the Wardens so she won't be in he circle.

[Eludajae]

I sided with the Mages because it was the Knight Commanders fault that the veil was pierced, Her fanaticism gave way to hate which allowed her to become possessed. She was responsible for every blood mage becoming an Abomination in Kirkwall and she and her corruption needed to be purged just like the Archdaemon did.

[Forst1999]

Elton John is dead wrote...


Killing every mage is wrong but Cullan himself mentions that to Meredith. So people can still side with Templars and still have compassion for mages. During the ending act there are dialogue options to say that killing all mages is wrong.

The problem is that when you accept to help the templars you agree to Merediths "every mage is to be executed". In the end you can do a more reasonable thing, but you start with siding with a lunatic. Well i guess this could be shock because of the chantry, if you need a good rp reason.

[DragonicTerror]

What it comes down to is they decide to make you choose between 2 evils without a good end. The templars want to control and dominate the mage class while the mages are mostly blood mages that are going crazy from demons speaking to them. However, even though the mages are going nuts and using blood magic, I think they are the lesser of 2 evils because they are fighting for their lives while templars punish all mages equally. Blood magic or not, the templars are a far worst class to be beside.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I sided with the mages and was pretty sad that the blood mages didn't help me. I'm a blood mage! My romantic partner is a blood mage! We could restore the Marches to the Imperium! But nooo, they had to turn on me. I suspect it's because they were raised too long under the Circle and the pressures simply made them crack. Abominations are not to be trusted. They are to be maintained and controlled as thralls, just as the magisters would do.

[Revik]

Let's see. And I really did have to think about this one. Do I let a raving psychotic resort to slaughtering a bunch of innocent mages or free a bunch of ticking time bombs to roam the country side.

In the end I do believe in the oversight of the Circle and decided to side with the templars despite my beloved sister being part of the circle. I am glad that I was able to play the role of Master Bra'Tac and use discretion to lower the eventual body count.

There is also something people are forgetting. Mages can't just spontaneously use blood magic. This is something that is learned and studied so any mage who have resorted to blood magic were already on their path to ruin which includes the First Enchanter.

People who say blood magic is not inherently evil must also not believe in the addage that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Are there people who can wield such power responsibly? Of course. Can you trust in the general populace to be that responsible? Of course not.

From the posts I have read I really do believe that the best trick the demons have ever pulled off was making the world believe that blood magic wasn't evil. Or as Fenris would put it, "Are you really this naive?" Let's not forget that it was the demon that taught Merrill her blood magic. Or do we also conveniently forget that.

[Aithieel]

My Hawke was a mage so choice was obvious .

[Per Bialaska]

My Rogue sided with the mages. It is wrong to punish the many for the crimes of the few, the sister was a Circle Mage and would be eradicated and the lover a blood mage. Sure there were a lot of evidence that some mages turned very bad, but there were still uncorrupted mages too, in particular Bethany comes to mind. Anders did have to die for his crimes though, no hesitation, the only regreat being that you didn't have the opportunity to kill him earlier and thereby was able to prevent him from cold bloodedly murdering so many people.

[Mabari Owns High Dragon]

I was split over who to side with for the most part except for my total dislike for the Knight Commander. When I did Anders first quest and saw what that Templar was doing to that girl I knew who I was going to side with already... But seeing the ending I guess it was really that idol that pushed her to the slaughter. There had to be a Demon in that idol doing all this to Bartrand and The Knight Commander. Maybe I'll even go as far as to say some manifestation of an Arch Demon or something like it but at least Pride Demon in terms of influence. What Meridith turned into obviously echos Demonic power. I was also sad when Orsino turned to blood magic... Seems like he was tempted as well to survive. Anyway, though, I agree with the Circle of Magicians in the sense that mages need to be kept in check. However, how they do it is overboard for the most part and way too tight. Mages are a danger to humanity but they just need to be treated with greater care, not made to be slaves to Templars. Anders, on the other hand, was in the same league as The Knight Commander. I seriously dropped my jaw when I saw what he did and I killed him. Basically he just made everything worse AND killed the chantry leader. Sounds like the Spirit of Justice that bound itself with Anders was just as deadly as the demons...

Basically....
Meridith = Out of line and completely insane. She needed to be removed.
Mages = Need to be catalouged similar to Animagus in Harry Potter, but not jailed... Free otherwise.
Templars = Not bad but overboard under Meridiths control.
Anders = Basically deserved to die after what he did at Kirkwall...

Modifié par Mabari Owns High Dragon, 23 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Or a better question; who would side with the mages?

Reason why I sided with the mages...

"Templars. You kidnapped my sister, prepare to die!"