331 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

*rolls eyes* Yeah, that worked really well when we spread the rumor that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. And he actually did that....

[Taerda]

Vormaerin wrote...

Taerda wrote...

Elizabeth's historical killing of Mary is a pretty good storyline to dupe ... or perhaps have the tower guards torture and maim her, like the Beef Eaters did to others .. let the crows eat her eyes  and all of that.  lol.

But Mary was widely hated because she was a tyrant and a Catholic.     Anora's pretty much the exact opposite of all that...

Mary was hated by the half of English society that wanted a Protestant line on throne .. but that was not everyone at that time. Either way, it would require some twisting and reshaping to fit properly ... but isn't that what modern writing is about?

[Kelston]

RazorrX wrote...

She is queen after all.  She *COULD* have called a Landsmeet, and ORDERED Loghain to step down and go fight the Blight.

She chose not to.

Yeah ok. Let me try to go against the commander of my army who is in a failed mental state. I'm sure he would see it my way because I have a fancy "Queen" in front of my name when I write it down.

Taerda wrote...

Mary was hated by the half of English
society that wanted a Protestant line on throne .. but that was not
everyone at that time. Either way, it would require some twisting and
reshaping to fit properly ... but isn't that what modern writing is
about?

Except you are suggesting a sudden twist at the very end that conveniently forces the people to hate her in the 30 minutes before your final battle.

That's not cliched or convenient or lazy or anything.

Modifié par Kelston, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

*rolls eyes* Yeah, that worked really well when we spread the rumor that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. And he actually did that....

Yeah it's not like almost the entire Bannorn were ready to go to civil war over it.
Oh wait.

[The Angry One]

Kelston wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

She is queen after all.  She *COULD* have called a Landsmeet, and ORDERED Loghain to step down and go fight the Blight.

She chose not to.

Yeah ok. Let me try to go against the commander of my army who is in a failed mental state. I'm sure he would see it my way because I have a fancy "Queen" in front of my name when I write it down.

Hey it goes both ways you know. Either she's popular or not. Apparently she's popular enough to never, ever, ever warrant an execution for her treachery... but not popular enough to gain support against her father, who next to nobody wants as regent anyway.

Wait, what?

[Kelston]

The Angry One wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

*rolls eyes* Yeah, that worked really well when we spread the rumor that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. And he actually did that....

Yeah it's not like almost the entire Bannorn were ready to go to civil war over it.
Oh wait.

And yet all the powerful ones sided with Loghain enough that he was winning until you saved Eamon. And... what?

Do you conveniently ignore large chunks of the story just to make your argument and then in the same breath claim lazy writing?

[Kelston]

The Angry One wrote...

Kelston wrote...

RazorrX wrote...

She is queen after all.  She *COULD* have called a Landsmeet, and ORDERED Loghain to step down and go fight the Blight.

She chose not to.

Yeah ok. Let me try to go against the commander of my army who is in a failed mental state. I'm sure he would see it my way because I have a fancy "Queen" in front of my name when I write it down.

Hey it goes both ways you know. Either she's popular or not. Apparently she's popular enough to never, ever, ever warrant an execution for her treachery... but not popular enough to gain support against her father, who next to nobody wants as regent anyway.

Wait, what?

Are you really mentally deficient? Why don't you go to a psych ward of a mentally disturbed patient and try to convince them of anything.

She's popular with the people. This has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on her popularity with her father. And her father holds control of the military.

[ReubenLiew]

@Razorr - Aye, she could've, but then who's to say she could've managed to sway all the arls and banns to make her father step down? But you, a grey warden with the backing of a TRUE son of the Calenhad line with the sheer ability and tenacity to kill and murder things and just SOMEHOW manage to find proof against her father, of which none of these things she could've accomplished herself. She didn't call the landsmeet precisely because she has no ammunition to fire on her father. But since Arl Eamon decided to do it, means that now was the perfect chance to get dirt on her dad and force him to step down. Very political, very astute.



Plus she was locked in Arl Howe's house. Could be that she was there for quite some time.



And I bet you told her her father was going to die for his crimes, yes? Not exactly the sort of thing you tell someone, you know. Makes them, you know, go crazy and crap like that.

[Vormaerin]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah it's not like almost the entire Bannorn were ready to go to civil war over it.
Oh wait.

Umm, where do you get that impression?   Loghain was pretty handily crushing the few that stood against him.   If you go the landsmeet with the argument "Loghain betrayed the King", you'll flat out lose.

[The Angry One]

Kelston wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Vormaerin wrote...

*rolls eyes* Yeah, that worked really well when we spread the rumor that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. And he actually did that....

Yeah it's not like almost the entire Bannorn were ready to go to civil war over it.
Oh wait.

And yet all the powerful ones sided with Loghain enough that he was winning until you saved Eamon. And... what?

Do you conveniently ignore large chunks of the story just to make your argument and then in the same breath claim lazy writing?

Hey it turns out those with the most power tend to side with the status quo?  Colour me shocked.
The point is since you seemed to have missed it, the rumors of Loghain's treachery damaged him greatly. And while he was winning, he lost a lot of troops.
It's also implied that he was winning due to his ambushing of several key Banns who were trying to parley with him.

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah it's not like almost the entire Bannorn were ready to go to civil war over it.
Oh wait.

Umm, where do you get that impression?   Loghain was pretty handily crushing the few that stood against him.   If you go the landsmeet with the argument "Loghain betrayed the King", you'll flat out lose.

I'm talking about a large section of the Bannorn, not his crony Arls and Banns.

[Taerda]

Kelston wrote...

Taerda wrote...

Too bad, Allistair died in my play-through killing the Arch-demon ... she was not as popular at that point as the Savior of the
people - the mob outside would have been an easy tool to manipulate into killing her like Marie Antionette was killed by the French mob ... lots of ways to kill her... even if all the nobles are licking her perfumed slippers like you seem to think they are.

Except by that time, Marie Antoinette was not popular with the people.

You seem to believe a crowd of people could be easily manipulated to partake in the cold-blooded murder of a figure they liked.

You seem more sociopath than someone thinking with logic or reason. That or your k social studies class covered medieval Europe for the first time and failed to give you any of these key details regarding the murder/execution of Queens.

It is ok that you dislike me - you may call me whatever label you want to try to dismiss me, but nevertheless, popularity is a very fickle thing and often in the eye of the beholder. The storyline stated quite unequivably that the mob outside the Palace was about to break down the gates to see their savior "the Warden" ... that type of mentality is easily manipulated, just as it was manipulated during Revolutionary France

I have a feeling you know less about these Regicides then you believe; but it really matters not and is going off-topic at this point.

[Flamin Jesus]

*Gets the popcorn*

[Vormaerin]

Of course it damaged him. Especially since it was the truth and lots of people knew it. That's entirely different than generating a completely fictitious story that contradicts a lot of eye witness accounts. I mean, that plan might work. But where is there any evidence that the PC or Alistair has the skills or contacts to do that? Or that Alistair would even go along with it..

[ReubenLiew]

Aaannnd now I'm going to leave, because this thread took a sudden skill point in hostility.

To be back on topic, the one person I would've dearly liked to kill, but could not get the option to, was Prince Trian. Arrogant little stuntie, shame it tweren't mine blade that ended his miserable existence.

[Taerda]

Kelston wrote...
Except you are suggesting a sudden twist at the very end that conveniently forces the people to hate her in the 30 minutes before your final battle.

That's not cliched or convenient or lazy or anything.

Naw, at that point, the final battle is over, a disposessed queen was restored to her throne and the people who are fanatic for their heroine are allready pounding at the gates. Let them eat cake, Anora replies ... (just thought I'd throw this in since you are on the attack).

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

Of course it damaged him. Especially since it was the truth and lots of people knew it. That's entirely different than generating a completely fictitious story that contradicts a lot of eye witness accounts. I mean, that plan might work. But where is there any evidence that the PC or Alistair has the skills or contacts to do that? Or that Alistair would even go along with it..

In this scenario, Alistair would be dead, and the PC can earn the favour of many organizations with their fingers in everyone's pies such as the Mage's Collective.
All you would have to do is create enough doubt to justify Anora's execution. Maybe somewhere down the line there would be strife but... it'd be too late then, eh?

[Vormaerin]

The Angry One wrote...

I'm talking about a large section of the Bannorn, not his crony Arls and Banns.

Do you have any support for that statement?   If "large section" and "sizable minority" are synonyms for you, then we can probably agree.   But if there was some statement that the majority of the country opposed him, I missed it completely...

[Tekbear]

Loghain - i want revenge!

[_purifico_]

ReubenLiew wrote...

But... you just described every politician and current world leader of every country currently and possibly back towards the first dawn of centralized government.

They still lead us, right?

Plus he didn't rock big time. He was basically the king that did nothing but visit villages and have them cheer on him. And give the elves a better time since he appointed the elder from the alienage to be a councilor. He didn't change Fereldan at all.

Anora made Fereldan into a powerhouse. So no, Anora is simply the better choice, but by the sheer amount of loathing you seem to harbor for her I'm thinking the only reason you hate her is for personal reasons, not at all basing anything on her actual ability to rule but that she betrayed you so you must now have her punished for that.
Thats almost as petty as she is.

Oh for God's sake! Do you people read the comments here at all? You do know how to read, right? I've said it several times -  no, I don't think that she's a bad leader - on the contrary. I just think that she's a bad person. And that is the reason I want her dead.

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

I'm talking about a large section of the Bannorn, not his crony Arls and Banns.

Do you have any support for that statement?   If "large section" and "sizable minority" are synonyms for you, then we can probably agree.   But if there was some statement that the majority of the country opposed him, I missed it completely...

A minority would not cause a civil war.
A minority would not warrant Loghain's backstabbing (why trick them if you can just mow them down?)
A minority would not have dented Loghain's army the way it did.

[Akka le Vil]

Loghain in the way that his execution is far too forgiving.
Anora and Morrigan. Both are scheming, devious little b*tches that screw you over and over and that you're prevented to punish.

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Anora wants what's best for Ferelden, which is honestly, Anora. Anora was raised to be a queen, she understands her people, she understands politics. She is not power-hungry.

This is a joke, right ?
Anora wants power, that's all. She may wish good for Ferelden, but that's clearly not her true motivations.
She even SAYS SO. She clearly admits that she's out for power, that she wants to truly rule and that after five years with Cailan she is tired of only being the power behind the throne. She's ready to execute Alistair just to keep her throne.

She'll betray anyone without a second thought if it further her goals, and for someone who is supposed to care so much about Ferelden, she's ready to betray you, and so forfeit all the allied armies and the Grey Warden, while a Blight is on rampage.
Does not compute.

This being said, I found brilliant the whole Anora dilemma. An efficient and popular devious backstabbing scum that you politically need. I found it both extremely repulsive AND totally making sense that I had to ally myself to her.
But I seriously ressent that you don't have the possibility to kill her. It should have been an option.


As for Morrigan, the infamous scene "I'm an untouchable Mary Sue" is sufficient to wish to kill her.

As for Loghain, swift execution is simply too kind. He should have been put in a cage to starve, while all his schemes where publicly revealed. And Anora forced to watch as his father's name is reduced to the biggest traitor in the Ferelden history - I'm pretty sure than selling your country in slavery and to the Blight is far worse than to Orlais

[Vormaerin]

None of those statements are true.

There are all kinds of civil wars and uprising historically that were caused by far less than a majority of the nobility.    Loghain chose to ambush his foes because he was trying to avoid open warfare.    And all they needed todo to dent his armies that badly were to not join him..    He'd already sacrificed a good chunk of the army at Ostagar.   If another 20-25% of the nobles' opposed him, his army would be pretty weak compared to the usual full muster of Ferelden after her crushed that minority.

[Zenocrate]

Mary Kirby wrote...
I'm not sure how not talking to her is reasonable justification outside the realm of paranoid wearers of tin-foil hats..

She tells you quite clearly that she wants to stay Queen.  She knows that Eamon wants to put Alistair on the throne instead.  If you don't come talk to her about the Landsmeet, of course she assumes you're sticking with Eamon's plan to put The Boy Who Would Rather Be Thinking About Cheese on the throne.  Tinfoil hat is optional.

If this is the case then there is a HUGE bug in the questline triggers.

I surrendered to Cauthrien (i.e. did not rat out anora).  Then talked to Anora in Eamon's estate and she and Alistair agreed to marrying such that she would essentially keep her throne while he was a figurehead.

Then at the landsmeet she comes out in favor of Loghain.  I bent over backwards to help her keep her throne and she STILL backstabbed me.

So either you guys don't know what you're talking about, or you've got some QAing to do.

[The Angry One]

Vormaerin wrote...

None of those statements are true.

There are all kinds of civil wars and uprising historically that were caused by far less than a majority of the nobility.    Loghain chose to ambush his foes because he was trying to avoid open warfare.    And all they needed todo to dent his armies that badly were to not join him..    He'd already sacrificed a good chunk of the army at Ostagar.   If another 20-25% of the nobles' opposed him, his army would be pretty weak compared to the usual full muster of Ferelden after her crushed that minority.

There is specific talk that the loyalist and Bannorn armies clashing would reduce both by a large amount, it's not just that Loghain has a drain on manpower, it's that any victory he'd have in the civil war would be pyrrhic.