331 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Zenocrate wrote...

Then at the landsmeet she comes out in favor of Loghain.  I bent over backwards to help her keep her throne and she STILL backstabbed me.

So either you guys don't know what you're talking about, or you've got some QAing to do.

Sigh. I think this has been said several times, but if you tell her that you're going to kill her father, she's going to betray you. Because she loves her father. OH NOEZ, how unreasonable.

Not unreasonable, but balancing her father's life against the fact that he did arrange to kill her husband (making it pretty obvious who she loved more) and has thrown the nation into civil war at a time any sane person would see the  need for it to be united makes it obvious that she cares more for her own whims than either for her nation or her responsibilities as queen. 

[RunCDFirst]

Akka le Vil wrote...
As she said herself, she helps me because her goals coincide with mine. Her "honesty" simply comes from the fact that the truths she tells are harmless for her.
As soon as saying the truth doesn't make her position better, she lies. The whole rescue was a lie, for God's sake !

I wouldn't trust her with the hour of the day, unless she's something to gain from it.
The simple fact that she tried to kill Alistair is quite telling.
How I would have liked the option "Bad Idea to ask for the death of my friend when your victory depended on my. (kill her)".

Or better, when coming back at the Arl's house after she betrayed me to Gauthrien, not even trying to convince her that her father was going mad : "I hope there is no hard feelings" "Yes, there is, b*tch (Kill her)"

To be fair, she has no idea what your relationship with Alistair is. All she sees is a potential heir to the throne that has already laid claim and threatened civil war. And it's quite obvious that Alistair is in the running for Worst Possible Monarch.

As for the lie about her wellbeing, do remember that Arl Howe does like kidnapping people and torturing them in secret. If you were being held by Howe, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to be worried about your life. I mean, he has a Templar driven mad from torture in his basement!

And you betray her first to Cautherien by announcing her presence, something she specifically warns you not to do ahead of time. The fact that she only ever takes action against the PC after being betrayed seems to suggest that she is a fairly decent individual. She knows her father is obsessed at the moment, that's what led to her imprisonment at Howe's. But she does remember the father he use to be and she would rather believe in that image than the current tyrannical one.

Loghain has a lot of support. The country is quite happy to have him assume command of the throne while the Queen is still sitting on it! That should give you an idea of how loved he is by the people and how much respect they have for him over being the Hero of the River Dane. She can't just come out and say 'Oh, he's crazy.' She needs proof, something which neither her nor your PC can provide until the Landsmeet.

[The Angry One]

RunCDFirst wrote...

To be fair, she has no idea what your relationship with Alistair is. All she sees is a potential heir to the throne that has already laid claim and threatened civil war. And it's quite obvious that Alistair is in the running for Worst Possible Monarch.

As opposed to her father, who has STARTED a civil war due to his blatant power grab that all happened with her tacit approval?

As for the lie about her wellbeing, do remember that Arl Howe does like kidnapping people and torturing them in secret. If you were being held by Howe, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to be worried about your life. I mean, he has a Templar driven mad from torture in his basement!

I'm sure Howe knows what kind of horrible things Loghain would do to him if he harmed a single hair on Anora's head.

And you betray her first to Cautherien by announcing her presence, something she specifically warns you not to do ahead of time. The fact that she only ever takes action against the PC after being betrayed seems to suggest that she is a fairly decent individual. She knows her father is obsessed at the moment, that's what led to her imprisonment at Howe's. But she does remember the father he use to be and she would rather believe in that image than the current tyrannical one.

We've gone over this. She can betray you anyway, (for the despicable crime of not talking to her even) and she comes to you under false pretenses. Why people continue to make excuses for her is beyond me.

Loghain has a lot of support. The country is quite happy to have him assume command of the throne while the Queen is still sitting on it! That should give you an idea of how loved he is by the people and how much respect they have for him over being the Hero of the River Dane. She can't juat come out and say 'Oh, he's crazy.' She needs proof, something which neither her nor your PC can provide until the Landsmeet.

Complete rubbish. There was civil war over Loghain's regency, people on the street saw it as a terribly arrogant act to take power while the King's corpse was still warm.
Anora let this happen. Had she no authority at all to slap Loghain down and take power as ruler? If not, then what kind of Queen is she?

[Akka le Vil]

You really look much too hard trying to find justification for her behaviour, and it feels very too much far-stretched.

[BluesMan1956]

uhhh.... so who did the last dozen or so posters want to kill?

[RunCDFirst]

The Angry One wrote...

As opposed to her father, who has STARTED a civil war due to his blatant power grab that all happened with her tacit approval?

He would be in the running too.

I'm sure Howe knows what kind of horrible things Loghain would do to him if he harmed a single hair on Anora's head.

Oh really? And what did Howe expect would happen if news got out he tortured a Templar? Or a Bannorn's son? Or a Grey Warden? I don't think Howe cares. At the very least, I can see how someone might have some concerns over being the Arl's 'guest'.

We've gone over this. She can betray you anyway, (for the despicable crime of not talking to her even) and she comes to you under false pretenses. Why people continue to make excuses for her is beyond me.

I would betray you too if you never spoke to me and we had the fate of Ferelden hanging in the balance. Why would I throw my support behind a Grey Warden trying to throw his order onto the throne? Don't they have a Blight they should  be fighting? A Blight I'd support so long as they keep their blood soaked fingers out of my homeland's politics?

Complete rubbish. There was civil war over Loghain's regency, people on the street saw it as a terribly arrogant act to take power while the King's corpse was still warm.

Right, a civil war that he was winning and one that many Bannorns didn't care about because the Darkspawn are beating down our door. You do know that Bodahn supported Loghain right? I don't think it's accurate to try and portray it that the common folk were against Loghain. Sure, some people would hate Loghain for it, but by the sounds of things, they were just a vocal minority, not the entire populace. 

Anora let this happen. Had she no authority at all to slap Loghain down and take power as ruler? If not, then what kind of Queen is she?

The same kind of Queen that had to rule with Cailan's blessings. It's quite obvious that the King holds the power of the monarchy, I bet she had to be manipulative while Cailan was alive in order to keep the kingdom going. I'm glad she got her Queen Elizabeth moment at the end of my playthrough. If anything, she deserved it.

[The Angry One]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Oh really? And what did Howe expect would happen if news got out he tortured a Templar? Or a Bannorn's son? Or a Grey Warden? I don't think Howe cares. At the very least, I can see how someone might have some concerns over being the Arl's 'guest'.

In those cases he still has Loghain to hide behind. In Anora's case Loghain himself would be the one dangling Howe over a pool full of crocodiles.

I would betray you too if you never spoke to me and we had the fate of Ferelden hanging in the balance. Why would I throw my support behind a Grey Warden trying to throw his order onto the throne? Don't they have a Blight they should  be fighting? A Blight I'd support so long as they keep their blood soaked fingers out of my homeland's politics?

Maybe Grey Wardens simply don't have the time to talk to you?
It's supremely arrogant of her to think she can play stupid games with the Grey Wardens just so she can be secure in her power.

Right, a civil war that he was winning and one that many Bannorns didn't care about because the Darkspawn are beating down our door. You do know that Bodahn supported Loghain right? I don't think it's accurate to try and portray it that the common folk were against Loghain. Sure, some people would hate Loghain for it, but by the sounds of things, they were just a vocal minority, not the entire populace.

It's a civil war. People will be divided. And yet again, he was "winning", but it was costing him dearly. This wasn't a vocal minority, this was a sizable portion of Ferelden opposing him,

The same kind of Queen that had to rule with Cailan's blessings. It's quite obvious that the King holds the power of the monarchy, I bet she had to be manipulative while Cailan was alive in order to keep the kingdom going. I'm glad she got her Queen Elizabeth moment at the end of my playthrough. If anything, she deserved it.

If that were true at all then why can she be made queen by herself with a potential male heir in the running?
If this were similar to real life english monarchy at all, she wouldn't even be an issue.
Thus, she has clearly demonstrated her inability to lead and her lack of care for the best interests of Ferelden.

[RunCDFirst]

The Angry One wrote...

Maybe Grey Wardens simply don't have the time to talk to you?
It's supremely arrogant of her to think she can play stupid games with the Grey Wardens just so she can be secure in her power.

But they have time to prepare a candidate for the throne? I'd imagine a simple conversation would be easy to hold, especially since she's standing the next room. 

It's a civil war. People will be divided. And yet again, he was "winning", but it was costing him dearly. This wasn't a vocal minority, this was a sizable portion of Ferelden opposing him,

We're never given any indication how big the actual forces arrayed against Loghain are. We are told quite clearly that he's winning the civil war though. 

If that were true at all then why can she be made queen by herself with a potential male heir in the running?
If this were similar to real life english monarchy at all, she wouldn't even be an issue.
Thus, she has clearly demonstrated her inability to lead and her lack of care for the best interests of Ferelden.

She doesn't have to be made Queen, she already is Queen. Why do you think she calls for Alistair's execution? And do you honestly think that Alistair being King is in the best interests of Ferelden? When the only reason he wants to be King is to kill one person? Alistair even refuses to compromise that decision. Out of all the candidates, Anora is the only one willing to work with co-operative parties. She's the only one that demonstrates the ability to actually lead a country.

[Taerda]

RunCDFirst wrote...

But they have time to prepare a candidate for the throne? I'd imagine a simple conversation would be easy to hold, especially since she's standing the next room.

I held a "simple" conversation with her - told her Allistair was going to be King and I was going to kill her father.  It is Bioware's failing that I could not kill her as I should have been able to.

We're never given any indication how big the actual forces arrayed against Loghain are. We are told quite clearly that he's winning the civil war though.

My play-through must have been different then yours - the only indication I was given was that he turned to slavery because he had no more gold to spend on the civil war -- that sure is not a good indication of winning.

She doesn't have to be made Queen, she already is Queen. Why do you think she calls for Alistair's execution? And do you honestly think that Alistair being King is in the best interests of Ferelden? When the only reason he wants to be King is to kill one person? Alistair even refuses to compromise that decision. Out of all the candidates, Anora is the only one willing to work with co-operative parties. She's the only one that demonstrates the ability to actually lead a country.

Allistair would have been a much better King then she queen, because I would have been by his side.

Anora was willing to do anything to stay in power - that alone is reason enough to kill her.

[RunCDFirst]

Taerda wrote...
My play-through must have been different then yours - the only indication I was given was that he turned to slavery because he had no more gold to spend on the civil war -- that sure is not a good indication of winning.

I believe it's from Bodahn again. He mentions how a sizable force of rebels confronted Loghain's troops and were routed. Also mentions something along the lines that the battle likely secured his position on the throne. And rulers do a number of things to secure the funds for their war. Turning to slavery is probably just one aspect and not the sole revenue for his forces. If anything, that could suggest just how large his army is if it needs additional money to support.

Allistair would have been a much better King then she queen, because I would have been by his side.

Anora was willing to do anything to stay in power - that alone is reason enough to kill her.

Sometimes it sounds like players will do anything to take power and yet no one argues for their deaths. 

[Ariella]

RunCDFirst wrote...
She doesn't have to be made Queen, she already is Queen. Why do you think she calls for Alistair's execution? And do you honestly think that Alistair being King is in the best interests of Ferelden? When the only reason he wants to be King is to kill one person? Alistair even refuses to compromise that decision. Out of all the candidates, Anora is the only one willing to work with co-operative parties. She's the only one that demonstrates the ability to actually lead a country.

Her title, however, is hollow, as she's not of Theirin blood. Being called Queen is like the "promotion" other captains get when they're aboard someone else's vessel for any length of time. It's a courtesy based on her marriage, but unless Cailan named her his legal heir in the event of his death, she should be no more in the succession to the throne of Fereldan than the Prince Consort of Queen Elizabeth the Second is to the throne of England. And, as there's indication that Cailan knew that Alistair was his brother, and kept him out of the fighting, I think it's a decent surmise that Cailan had at least a minor though of his own mortality and wanted to make sure that at least one man of Theirin blood made it out.

[RunCDFirst]

Ariella wrote...
Her title, however, is hollow, as she's not of Theirin blood. Being called Queen is like the "promotion" other captains get when they're aboard someone else's vessel for any length of time. It's a courtesy based on her marriage, but unless Cailan named her his legal heir in the event of his death, she should be no more in the succession to the throne of Fereldan than the Prince Consort of Queen Elizabeth the Second is to the throne of England. And, as there's indication that Cailan knew that Alistair was his brother, and kept him out of the fighting, I think it's a decent surmise that Cailan had at least a minor though of his own mortality and wanted to make sure that at least one man of Theirin blood made it out.

Wasn't it Duncan that ordered Alistair to light the beacon? I don't think Cailan cared.

As for succession, Cailan had produced no legitimate heirs so the throne passes to the Queen. Alistair has a claim to the throne, but that doesn't mean the throne automatically passes to him because of his Theirin blood. Hence the whole civil war. I mean, Catherine II of Russia took the throne after her husbands death so succession often does pass to the Queen.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 18 novembre 2009 - 06:35 .

[schminck]

This thread has caused a CIVIL WAR!!

Seriously, all it does is prove Bioware really made characters you CARE about.  Or have SOME opinion about.  That's pretty darn cool.

[Taerda]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Her title, however, is hollow, as she's not of Theirin blood. Being called Queen is like the "promotion" other captains get when they're aboard someone else's vessel for any length of time. It's a courtesy based on her marriage, but unless Cailan named her his legal heir in the event of his death, she should be no more in the succession to the throne of Fereldan than the Prince Consort of Queen Elizabeth the Second is to the throne of England. And, as there's indication that Cailan knew that Alistair was his brother, and kept him out of the fighting, I think it's a decent surmise that Cailan had at least a minor though of his own mortality and wanted to make sure that at least one man of Theirin blood made it out.

Wasn't it Duncan that ordered Alistair to the light the beacon? I don't think Cailan cared.

As for succession, Cailan had produced no legitimate heirs so the throne passes to the Queen. Alistair has a claim to the throne, but that doesn't mean the throne automatically passes to him because of his Theirin blood. Hence the whole civil war. I mean, Catherine II of Russia took the throne after her husbands death so succession often does pass to the Queen.

Cailan wanted Grey Wardens there, and actually orders Allistair and the PC there. Allistair's claim is much stronger then hers under Salic law (and other Fuedal inheritance laws) but what is important here is that the Throne is elective, much as the real life Bohemian throne was. If the Landsmeet voted King Kong in as King ... then King Kong would be the legitimate ruler.

[RunCDFirst]

Taerda wrote...
Cailan wanted Grey Wardens there, and actually orders Allistair and the PC there. Allistair's claim is much stronger then hers under Salic law (and other Fuedal inheritance laws) but what is important here is that the Throne is elective, much as the real life Bohemian throne was. If the Landsmeet voted King Kong in as King ... then King Kong would be the legitimate ruler.

True, anyone else notice the ridiculous amount of democracy implemented into Ferelden politics? They need a more straight forward monarchical rule. 

[Ariella]

Taerda wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Her title, however, is hollow, as she's not of Theirin blood. Being called Queen is like the "promotion" other captains get when they're aboard someone else's vessel for any length of time. It's a courtesy based on her marriage, but unless Cailan named her his legal heir in the event of his death, she should be no more in the succession to the throne of Fereldan than the Prince Consort of Queen Elizabeth the Second is to the throne of England. And, as there's indication that Cailan knew that Alistair was his brother, and kept him out of the fighting, I think it's a decent surmise that Cailan had at least a minor though of his own mortality and wanted to make sure that at least one man of Theirin blood made it out.

Wasn't it Duncan that ordered Alistair to the light the beacon? I don't think Cailan cared.

As for succession, Cailan had produced no legitimate heirs so the throne passes to the Queen. Alistair has a claim to the throne, but that doesn't mean the throne automatically passes to him because of his Theirin blood. Hence the whole civil war. I mean, Catherine II of Russia took the throne after her husbands death so succession often does pass to the Queen.

Cailan wanted Grey Wardens there, and actually orders Allistair and the PC there. Allistair's claim is much stronger then hers under Salic law (and other Fuedal inheritance laws) but what is important here is that the Throne is elective, much as the real life Bohemian throne was. If the Landsmeet voted King Kong in as King ... then King Kong would be the legitimate ruler.

I wouldn't call the throne of Fereldan a true eletive throne (like the Dwarves), but the Landsmeet does seem to have the right to break any deadlocks should there be a question of succession, just as many parlimentary bodies have had over the years .

[DrekorSilverfang]

Wynne... I hate her so much.



Well actually I reloaded several times because I did kill her and I kind of need the healer. Really wish there were a few more mage companions to pick from. All the awesome banter between my group in my first playthrough was gone in the second because of Wynne, all she did was try and lecture morrigan or oghren.

[RazorrX]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Wasn't it Duncan that ordered Alistair to light the beacon? I don't think Cailan cared.

When it came to that Calain asked who was to light the torch and Loghain said he had hand picked people.  Calain responded with something like "Since it is so vital to the plans, we should send our very best.  Send Allistar and the new Recruit."

[RunCDFirst]

DrekorSilverfang wrote...

Wynne... I hate her so much.

Well actually I reloaded several times because I did kill her and I kind of need the healer. Really wish there were a few more mage companions to pick from. All the awesome banter between my group in my first playthrough was gone in the second because of Wynne, all she did was try and lecture morrigan or oghren.

I liked Wynne.

[Ariella]

RunCDFirst wrote...

Taerda wrote...
Cailan wanted Grey Wardens there, and actually orders Allistair and the PC there. Allistair's claim is much stronger then hers under Salic law (and other Fuedal inheritance laws) but what is important here is that the Throne is elective, much as the real life Bohemian throne was. If the Landsmeet voted King Kong in as King ... then King Kong would be the legitimate ruler.

True, anyone else notice the ridiculous amount of democracy implemented into Ferelden politics? They need a more straight forward monarchical rule. 

I wouldn't call it democratic by any real stretch of the imagination, but les majesty doesn't seem to be a crime in Fereldan and considering that King Calenhad required only fealty and not total submission from the nobles he vanquished, explains the amount of autonomy that the nobles hold, and their ability to criticize the reigning monarch. This is probably especially true after Meghern's disasterous reign (something, amusingly enough, Loghain uncousiously emulated when he demanded total obedience from the banns, arls, and teryn of Fereldan).

[RunCDFirst]

RazorrX wrote...
When it came to that Calain asked who was to light the torch and Loghain said he had hand picked people.  Calain responded with something like "Since it is so vital to the plans, we should send our very best.  Send Allistar and the new Recruit."

I stand corrected. In my defence, it has been 80 hours since the battle of Ostagar.

Ariella wrote...

I wouldn't call it democratic by any real stretch of the imagination, but les majesty doesn't seem to be a crime in Fereldan and considering that King Calenhad required only fealty and not total submission from the nobles he vanquished, explains the amount of autonomy that the nobles hold, and their ability to criticize the reigning monarch. This is probably especially true after Meghern's disasterous reign (something, amusingly enough, Loghain uncousiously emulated when he demanded total obedience from the banns, arls, and teryn of Fereldan).

I'm assuming this is covered in the books? Or did I miss some important codexes?

[tls5669]

Howe. Easily, I cant stand his stuck up attitude.

[The Angry One]

RunCDFirst wrote...

But they have time to prepare a candidate for the throne? I'd imagine a simple conversation would be easy to hold, especially since she's standing the next room.

We don't, but Arl Eamon does.

We're never given any indication how big the actual forces arrayed against Loghain are. We are told quite clearly that he's winning the civil war though.

Howe clearly says he's concerned that if the fights continue they simply won't have enough manpower to fight the darkspawn, Loghain's only response being "no true Blight lol!".

She doesn't have to be made Queen, she already is Queen. Why do you think she calls for Alistair's execution? And do you honestly think that Alistair being King is in the best interests of Ferelden? When the only reason he wants to be King is to kill one person? Alistair even refuses to compromise that decision. Out of all the candidates, Anora is the only one willing to work with co-operative parties. She's the only one that demonstrates the ability to actually lead a country.

She's Queen by marriage to a dead man. She really has little claim compared to Alistair.
And the fact remains - Anora doesn't lead. She lets her father take over and run the country into the ground.
Either she couldn't stop him, and is thus an ineffective leader, or she chose not to stop him, which makes her an irresponsible leader. Either one of those make Alistair a fair superior candidate than her. Hell, they make Sandal a far superior candidate.

Modifié par The Angry One, 18 novembre 2009 - 07:50 .

[The Angry One]

RazorrX wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...

Wasn't it Duncan that ordered Alistair to light the beacon? I don't think Cailan cared.

When it came to that Calain asked who was to light the torch and Loghain said he had hand picked people.  Calain responded with something like "Since it is so vital to the plans, we should send our very best.  Send Allistar and the new Recruit."

And if you press the issue by saying you should go alone, Cailan is vehement about it: Alistair must go to the tower.
It makes me think he was aware and sought to protect Alistair.

[Felene]

Sheryl Chee wrote...

Sigh. I think this has been said several times, but if you tell her that you're going to kill her father, she's going to betray you. Because she loves her father. OH NOEZ, how unreasonable.

Really? I guess my game play is bugged.

Because I told her I will support her, but I also tell her Loghain has to die, she agree and support me in Landsmeet by telling everyone her father is mad and cannot be trust.

And that right there makes me betray her in Landsmeet by making Alistair king.

That power hungry **** got what she deserves.

Back to the topic, people I want to kill in game.

Isolde, I totally understand her stand, she love her son blah blah blah and all that I can forgive.

But, DAME THE STUPIDITY!

Modifié par Felene, 18 novembre 2009 - 10:07 .