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[The Angry One]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Hell for all she knows, you told your forces she's a brood mother in the making.

I think she believes that your allies might get suspicious if you told them the queen of Ferelden, surrounded by hundreds of servants (Or captors, as it were), in the Capital, was secretly being transformed into a sick abomination by the Hurlock-Maid.

Obviously an exagerration but you get my meaning. You're either with the Blight or against it.

[David Gaider]

The Angry One wrote...
I'm not sure where I said the plot was dragging me along anywhere, since my point in all this is Anora is messing with things she doesn't understand because she's a power hungry wench and should swing from the highest yardarm in the Denerim docks.
Point is they're not going to deal with the Blight without you now, are they? Anora's petty betrayals threaten all of them, and that in the end is why they could *potentially* oppose her.

Yes, clearly Anora should not have opposed you. Clearly you have the best interests of Ferelden at heart. She should have known that, the ungrateful wench. My apologies.

[Flamin Jesus]

The Angry One wrote...

Flamin Jesus wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The point is, you've just gone and pissed off several large and powerful groups, and doomed them to the Blight all because of your insipid lust for the throne.

The very same could be said about the person who lusts for the throne so much that they abuse those armies in a bid for power instead of backing down and focussing on the real threat.

Largely irrelevant since I'm talking about Anora's actions across any campaign and not just one where you seek the throne.
She betrays you either way, for the terrible crimes of not speaking to her or telling the truth!
This has nothing to do with what the player wants, in essence it's Anora barging in the way of the fight against the Blight because her throne is just so damn precious to her.

All the solutions that work against Anora could be seen as a bid for power by an outside observer, be it by trying to get the throne yourself or trying to put an easily influenced puppet on the throne (Loghain even accuses you of that, though he thinks there's an Orlesian puppetmaster behind it all).

Also I have to say I never had such betrayal issues with her, that included that one time I totally beheaded her father, and that other time Alistair did it instead.

[The Angry One]

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, clearly Anora should not have opposed you. Clearly you have the best interests of Ferelden at heart. She should have known that, the ungrateful wench. My apologies.

Depending on the character, yes, I do. No need for sarcasm.
Oh well. I still like you better than Michael Kirkbride. But then, he's a lunatic.

[Blue_dodo]

the king god I hated him...



then again I smile everytime I see the cutsene of him being killed by the ogre, but I still wish it was me

[schminck]

What Loghain says at camp really has no bearings on what Anora feels herself. Yeah, Loghain would enver betray his daughter. Anora doesn't know that, and for all she knows Howe is directly working for Loghead himself and the kidnapping was her father's order.

I'm not saying Anora isn't a manipulator. I'm saying not everything she did and said was 100% a lie and manipulation because she wanted to rule and nothing else. I think wanting to kill her for anything she did in the game (that I saw) is completely unreasonable. If you're mad at her on a personal level, I can understand that, but trying to say or imply that killing her is justified because of her actions seems incredibly misguided.

Oh I disagree.  Loghain implies that Anora knew very WELL she was in no danger, and was manipulating the entire thing.  Loghain could be completely mistaken, or even twisting the truth to what he belives (as obviously he's known to do) but that's not the impression I got out of it.

And I'm not MAD at her in the least.  It's just a game, and an awesome story. =D  The character herself was well written I felt and COMPLETELY made the entire story interesting.  She provides an excellent example for the player of how tough decisions are not always the ones you see in happy sappy movies.  REAL tough decisions sometimes are the ones most people think are easy decisions... yet the outcome because you didn't make the tough choice can sometime lead to doom.  (I.E., picking Ali to rule instead of Anora, and locking her away or something.)

But the point of this thread is all about 'The Person I Most Wanted to Kill' (and possibly couldn't, judging from the OP's first post).  After Hespith, I am honestly saying I would have liked to do in Anora, just because I would have liked to stick it to that character and see the outcome.

I don't find that unreasonable, I find that just creative license on how you wish you could interact with a character and change the story.  Bioware did an amazing job of giving us all MANY different choices and outcomes, but there's always some things they can't / don't give us because they want a story to go a certain way... and it's fun to imagine what we could do if we have unlimited freedom

[Taritu]

Morrigan.

As for Anora, she's clearly too dangerous and conniving to let live if you put Alistair on the throne. And as she herself admits, if the situation was reversed, she'd have Alistair executed. Lucky for her it was Alistair's decision, not mine.

I don't mind Anora. She's convinced she'd be the best Queen, and she does everything she can to make sure she stays Queen. I don't trust her, and I do trust Alistair, so I put him on the throne. C'est la vie. He may not be the strongest king, but eh. (And at that point I didn't know I was going to be dead soon, so I figured I'd be able to whisper good advice to him when necessary. Oops.)

Modifié par Taritu, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[Taritu]

Woops.  Duplicate post.

Modifié par Taritu, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:41 .

[BlackLotus30]

I didn't mind Anora until she accused my PC of kidnapping her, good thing Ser Cauthrien was a level headed knight. Anyway as ligitimate as Anora's claim to the throne was, she didn't have the Theirin bloodline and didn't produce an heir of said bloodline. Had she and Cailan had a kid well it I would have made a different choice. I would have kept her on the throne, but as it turned out Alistair was of said bloodline and Eamons does say that Felderan care about the kings bloodline. Of course my pc is a Cousland and with Alistair has a stronger claim to the Throne .



If I had my wish I would make sure that Anora lives for the rest of her life in that Tower, heck I think we might forgot she's there and wall up the door and put a magicfield so that the evil crone she'll become don't escape and haunt the castle.

[ReubenLiew]

I'm not quite sure I understand this.

She will only betray you if you reveal her during Ser Cauthriens' questioning, showing her that the grey warden she hoped might help her out of a situation in which she MIGHT be killed (now I'm not sure whether or not she absolutely knew for certain that she might be killed or not, but not the point) is a complete idiot after she specifically asked you to keep a lid on it whilst she keeps a disguise on so she can leave undetected in case Arl Howe or Loghain gets wind of her escape and throw her back on lockdown spill your guts to some random commander not 15 seconds after she mentions secrecy to you.

Then if you don't talk to her, she gets suspicious that you, the not all that politically savvy or rightly not particularly smart on keeping lips sealed, which is important in any political situation, might not only put somebody who's not particularly keen on keeping the throne (in fact I do agree with the developers, he wasn't a good king, he was a POPULAR king. He always left the court to go out doing his own thing, and quite frankly that screams lousy king to me. Anora, on the other hand, did great things for Fereldan, cementing it's position as a country of power through economic and military stability. She did have to burn the Alienage to quell a riot though, but quite frankly, most countries look unfavourably towards rioters and terrorists anyway) and not only that you might kill her father.

Look me in my avatars eye and tell me if someone who rightly has a very large grudge on your father who is also particularly good at slaying people who disagree with them MAY kill your father, and if you have relationship problems with your father or whatever then you probably won't understand this, but as far as she knows her father was an absolutely doting father, at least up until the paranoia gripped him, and tell me you won't betray the person, irregardless of whether he's doing this for the greater good or not.

And then if you won't back her, well... its like if you were CEO and this random stranger with loads of money comes in buying up your company and decides who gets to stay in the top ranks of the Board and he kicks you out, someone who's been terminally loyal to the company and have lots and lots of good ideas and very loyal to the company, and not only that YOUNG too, do you think you'd just let this person waltz into the company your dad and his best friend built from the ground up go to some country bumpkin who can only think of cheese and wet frocks?

I'm sorry, I understand that you personally feel betrayed by what she's done to you because you were screwed up badly with this girl, but come on, she's barely the 2 dimensional character you seem to have pegged her to be. (I'm aiming this not particularly at anyone but at people who are so pissed by her, personally she never betrayed me, somehow I got it through perfect the first time round.)

And I could hardly call her petty because of this. But then I didn't personally get betrayed by her so maybe I might be biased, I did think she makes a far better monarch than Alistair ever will.

edit- And to be on topic, I think arl howe was the only person I really, really wanted to kill. I'm a bit miffed by how meh he dies though. I would've loved if my PC would lean in and stab him through the guy watching the life drain from his eyes, but cest la vie, or however that is supposed to be spelt.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 18 novembre 2009 - 02:58 .

[Taritu]

Unless, of course, you're an elf, and you don't want the alienage burned. Who cares if Ferelden becomes a powerhouse nation if it means my people stay oppressed and get mass murdered by her? If Ferelden remains free, and my people are treated better, good enough. In the ending I got, Alistair may not be a great king, but Ferelden does fine, and both the Dalish and the city elves are treated a lot better than they were in the past. Good enough.



I don't hate Anora, but I don't like her either.

[ReubenLiew]

No, no, I absolutely agree that you should hate her. That is what makes for a compelling character, you see, and it makes sense that as an elf you'd never forgiver her for burning it down.



What I'm arguing is that the Devs aren't wrong in this, and that Anora has perfectly legitimate reasons (if only to herself) to betray you,

[CChocobo]

Taritu wrote...

Morrigan.

As for Anora, she's clearly too dangerous and conniving to let live if you put Alistair on the throne. And as she herself admits, if the situation was reversed, she'd have Alistair executed. Lucky for her it was Alistair's decision, not mine.

I don't mind Anora. She's convinced she'd be the best Queen, and she does everything she can to make sure she stays Queen. I don't trust her, and I do trust Alistair, so I put him on the throne. C'est la vie. He may not be the strongest king, but eh. (And at that point I didn't know I was going to be dead soon, so I figured I'd be able to whisper good advice to him when necessary. Oops.)

How dare youu. Not my Morrigan! i challenge you to a duel! A duel to the death mind you, may the best Grey Warden win!

[Taritu]

Zer0cool040 wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Morrigan.

As for Anora, she's clearly too dangerous and conniving to let live if you put Alistair on the throne. And as she herself admits, if the situation was reversed, she'd have Alistair executed. Lucky for her it was Alistair's decision, not mine.

I don't mind Anora. She's convinced she'd be the best Queen, and she does everything she can to make sure she stays Queen. I don't trust her, and I do trust Alistair, so I put him on the throne. C'est la vie. He may not be the strongest king, but eh. (And at that point I didn't know I was going to be dead soon, so I figured I'd be able to whisper good advice to him when necessary. Oops.)

How dare youu. Not my Morrigan! i challenge you to a duel! A duel to the death mind you, may the best Grey Warden win!

Sorry, I'm already dead, since I didn't take up Morrigan's offer.  But I have a very nice monument and grave you can go spit on if you wish

[Maria Caliban]

Kalfear wrote...

I dont get this rating out bussiness either regarding anora at Howes?

The commander asks what your doing there and you answer honestly and truthfully, your there to set free Anora who Howe has locked up!

How is this ratting her out? You have told the truth and if she also answers with the truth, there is no problem. But instead she lies and says you trying to kidnap her!

I guess my morales might be more black and white, right and wrong, but I just dont see how telling the commander of the guard why you are there and the reason for your actions as ratting out Anora!

Cauthrine isn't the captain of the gaurd. The captain is the man you talk to in the market. Cauthrine is Loghian's second in command, sent there by Loghian to capture you.

Anora specifically tells you NOT to let her father's men know where she is and five seconds later you do just that.

[Taritu]

ReubenLiew wrote...

No, no, I absolutely agree that you should hate her. That is what makes for a compelling character, you see, and it makes sense that as an elf you'd never forgiver her for burning it down.

What I'm arguing is that the Devs aren't wrong in this, and that Anora has perfectly legitimate reasons (if only to herself) to betray you,

Oh, I agree.  She makes perfect sense to me.  My character didn't hate her, actually, the alienage burn down happens if you put her on the throne, and I didn't and didn't know that would happen.  I just didn't trust her, and did trust Alistair and Arl Eamon.  And, of course, I didn't expect to be dead (I didn't even meta-game know it, having avoided ending spoilers).

And Alistair is very good to the elves, which I did think he would be, because he's a decent person.

On my noble male run-through I'll probably marry her, I'm curious to see that ending.  Of course that means I'll probably have to spare Loghain, being married to someone like Anora after killing her father strikes me as... unhealthy and unwise.

[Maria Caliban]

I put Anora on the throne and kicked Alistair in out of the country, but both the Dalish and alienage elves did fine.

The alienage burning probably has something to do with what you did in the game.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:14 .

[ReubenLiew]

Taritu wrote...

Oh, I agree.  She makes perfect sense to me.  My character didn't hate her, actually, the alienage burn down happens if you put her on the throne, and I didn't and didn't know that would happen.  I just didn't trust her, and did trust Alistair and Arl Eamon.  And, of course, I didn't expect to be dead (I didn't even meta-game know it, having avoided ending spoilers).

And Alistair is very good to the elves, which I did think he would be, because he's a decent person.

On my noble male run-through I'll probably marry her, I'm curious to see that ending.  Of course that means I'll probably have to spare Loghain, being married to someone like Anora after killing her father strikes me as... unhealthy and unwise.

Haha would you believe I trusted her implicitly? I practically played into her hands I guess, but quite frankly it was more of a situation where both of us were using each other to further our own goals, my morality be damned. I need a solid ruler on the throne to not only see us through the Blight but to carry on Fereldan later. I didn't particularly care that she is manipulative, I've seen this enough out of real life politicians to know that manipulation is sometimes the only practical course in politics, although I didn't really think she was all too manipulative through that because she backed me all the way.

Of course I chose to spare Loghain at first, just to find out Alistairs bums out on me. That put a serious damper on my trust level for Alistair to lead a kingdom. Vengeance is fine and all for us commoners, but a King's vengeance involves a lot of dead people.

-edit- @maria - Really? Huh... weird. For my epilogue she had to quell the Alienage during her reign because of some problems with a famine or something to that effect, the food shortage made the Elves riot and terrorize the city so she had to resort to some rather drastic measures.

Could be that I didn't become king (being a female character in the game and all). I'd assume this was natural way it would've happened no matter what if she went on the throne. Although the Dalish elves did perfectly fine.

Modifié par ReubenLiew, 18 novembre 2009 - 03:18 .

[Flamin Jesus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I put Anora on the throne and kicked Alistair in out of the country, but both the Dalish and alienage elves did fine.

The alienage burning probably has something to do with what you did in the game.

Same for me when I had them marry, the Elves got a position in the council and did rather fine.

[AtreiyaN7]

Probably that despicable guy in Arl Howe's dungeon (can't remember his name atm - son of the dead Arl).

[Flamin Jesus]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Probably that despicable guy in Arl Howe's dungeon (can't remember his name atm - son of the dead Arl).

You can... I did.

[TuringPoint]

Vaughan, the son of the dead arl. I... considered letting him out of prison as my male noble, just for another voice in the landsmeet, but I killed him instead. Even though that seemed meta-gamey. I also considered letting him go as an elf, but being that the Alienage is cracked down on either way, **** 'em.

I might let him live just to say what he's like in prison later on.

Yaaay for defense of Queen Anora.  The only thing I don't like is her cracking down on the elves.  Wish I could prevent that somehow.

Modifié par Alocormin, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:36 .

[_purifico_]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Kalfear wrote...
No he doesnt, fact is you there to save her from Howe and she lies and says your trying to kidnap her!

And then later she lies again about her being at the Arls compound with you unless you agree to back her power play!

Shes a maniputive little backstabber that will say and do anything to get her way!

This just shows you that some people can make a excuse for anything, doesnt mean they right however

Remember that Anora IS the Queen and you are trying to overthrow her. So what do you expect?
She is very reasonable in asking for our support. But if we decline, you expect her to step down just like that?

The best way to deal with Anora is to marry her. This should be interesting.

In fact, no, she's not. Well she WAS, but that ended  happily just around the time her daddy betrayed the legitimate king of Ferelden. She is not of royal blood and thus has no right for the throne for that matter. Thank God that scank did not produce any offsprings. Talk about darkspawn...
Alistair on the other hand, even being a bastard, has every right to sit on that fancy chair looking all... kinglish.

On the subject of marriying Anora: you know, my character was not that good of a person - massacring the elves and goofing around with demons, but even she considered it too cruel too make ANYONE - let alone Alistair - spend the rest of his life with that crapbag.

Modifié par _purifico_, 18 novembre 2009 - 09:57 .

[Vormaerin]

Personally, I didn't have any problems with Anora's actions.   She's the Queen of Ferelden already.  We arrive backing a pretender.   In the real world, a ruler's spouse wouldn't necessarily hold the throne.... but then, a bastard like Alistair wouldn't have a claim in most places in Europe either.   I'm not sure what the law is on that in Ferelden.  Women certainly have a lot more authority and rights there than they did in historical Europe.

Considering that you show up already opposed to her (ie asking the Landsmeet to replace her), the fact that she deals with you at all is pretty statesmanlike.   She never backed out of any agreement in my play through.   I rescued her and we made a deal about the Landsmeet, which she upheld.    She has no reason whatsoever to respect Alistair or his claim to the throne.   He's a nice guy, but no on in their right mind could suspect he'd prove a competent ruler.   Even he says Anora's a better ruler.    If it wasn't for Arl Eamon's childish obsession with Theiran bloodlines, I'd've just put Anora on the throne alone.   Instead, I arranged for her to marry Alistair.

Alistair is the one who pissed me off in that scene.   That whole temper tantrum about "Sparing" Loghain by sentencing him to death on the battle field as a Grey Warden instead of death on the scaffold (so ot speak) is utterly childish.    Ser Jory and Alistair just convince me that Duncan was a bad judge of Warden material.  

What is with these Fereldeners and their obsessive hatreds?  Loghain destroys himself...and nearly the country... because he lets his legitimate hatred of Orlesians take over his whole life.   And now Alistair turns around and lets his legitimate hatred of Loghain do exactly the same thing.   Turn his back on the Wardens because of how Loghain dies?  Seriously?   Did he even look at our companions for the whole story?   Two assassins, a child killer, an apostate, a murderous golem, and my 'sentenced to death in Orzammar' Dwarf Commoner.   Even Oghren is on the wrong side of the law, though not as badly.     And I bet Wynne wouldn't be too well accepted if her fellows or the Chantry knew she was possessed by a Fade spirit.     So who's left for the honorable and upright crowd?   My dog?

[Elessie]

_purifico_ wrote...

In fact, no, she's not. Well she WAS, but that ended  happily just around the time her daddy betrayed the legitimate king of Ferelden. She is not of royal blood and thus has no right for the throne for that matter. Thank God that scank did not produce any offsprings. Talk about darkspawn...

I actually thought it really odd that after 5 years they still hadn't had a kid, and wondered if maybe one of them had difficulties in that department.  I mean isn't producing an heir a big deal if you're concerned with bloodlines ruling your country and all that?  Usually a priority?  So I pretended her possibly being unable to get pregnant was a good reason to put Alistair on the throne instead.  =P