20 réponses à ce sujet

[silver-crescent]

Origins had the, well, origins, which made each character unique. In Mass Effect you are always "Sheppard" but Sheppard can have different origins, backgrounds and whatnot.

But in DA2 you always come from Lothering, and Leandra, Carver and Bethany are always your family, and your relationships with them are pretty much set.

To me at least, that makes it hard to see different Hawkes as completely separate characters, it feels more like just playing as slight variances of the same character, which in turn makes subsequent playthroughs a lot less appealing.

[Sarah1281]

Not really. When you replay the same origin they come from the same beginning unless you mean that you've never repeated an origin? With Shepard, there is very little variability. You just get to pick how they came to join the military and the one event that made them stand out as spectre material. In DA2 all that's set is that the family was on the run and then lived in Lothering before having to flee for the Blight. What Hawke's like is hardly set in stone although I don't think they can be a complete anti-mage zealot if only because they never turned in Bethany. They could still be mostly anti-mage and just see their sister as the exception, though.

Carver doesn't resent you for your personality or what you've done. He just sees you as more talented either because you're a mage or because you're better at non-magical fighting than him. Hardly surprising for a main character and sibling rivalry doesn't say anything about Hawke, really. Maybe Hawke feels no sense of rivalry at all or maybe she really can't stand Carver. Bethany just looks up to her older sister and there's nothing that says that Hawke has to be worthy of that.

[Maria Caliban]

No, I don't feel that way.

[MasterSamson88]

Nah, I really don't feel that way. The Origins were just as repetitive. I mean it's a beginning tutorial stage, what do you expect? They're always somewhat repetitive.

[silver-crescent]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not really. When you replay the same origin they come from the same beginning unless you mean that you've never repeated an origin? With Shepard, there is very little variability. You just get to pick how they came to join the military and the one event that made them stand out as spectre material. In DA2 all that's set is that the family was on the run and then lived in Lothering before having to flee for the Blight. What Hawke's like is hardly set in stone although I don't think they can be a complete anti-mage zealot if only because they never turned in Bethany. They could still be mostly anti-mage and just see their sister as the exception, though.

Carver doesn't resent you for your personality or what you've done. He just sees you as more talented either because you're a mage or because you're better at non-magical fighting than him. Hardly surprising for a main character and sibling rivalry doesn't say anything about Hawke, really. Maybe Hawke feels no sense of rivalry at all or maybe she really can't stand Carver. Bethany just looks up to her older sister and there's nothing that says that Hawke has to be worthy of that.

Well, of course the origins don't grant infinite replayability, but at least you can have 7 characters with completely different backgrounds (counting magi origin as 2). Hawke's background, the first 20 years of his/her life are ALWAYS the same. The only thing that changes is wether you went to Ostagar (warrior, rogue) or not (mage).

[MasterSamson88]

silver-crescent wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Not really. When you replay the same origin they come from the same beginning unless you mean that you've never repeated an origin? With Shepard, there is very little variability. You just get to pick how they came to join the military and the one event that made them stand out as spectre material. In DA2 all that's set is that the family was on the run and then lived in Lothering before having to flee for the Blight. What Hawke's like is hardly set in stone although I don't think they can be a complete anti-mage zealot if only because they never turned in Bethany. They could still be mostly anti-mage and just see their sister as the exception, though.

Carver doesn't resent you for your personality or what you've done. He just sees you as more talented either because you're a mage or because you're better at non-magical fighting than him. Hardly surprising for a main character and sibling rivalry doesn't say anything about Hawke, really. Maybe Hawke feels no sense of rivalry at all or maybe she really can't stand Carver. Bethany just looks up to her older sister and there's nothing that says that Hawke has to be worthy of that.

Well, of course the origins don't grant infinite replayability, but at least you can have 7 characters with completely different backgrounds (counting magi origin as 2). Hawke's background, the first 20 years of his/her life are ALWAYS the same. The only thing that changes is wether you went to Ostagar (warrior, rogue) or not (mage).

What's your point though really? I mean in the end I feel like the Origins were kind of a waste of writing resources that could have been put elsewhere. They were good, of course, well written, but sometimes they didn't really feel entirely needed.

Especially considering the fact that after the Origin, they almost have no effect on the story what so ever except for maybe a few things. Where they go "Hey, you are a mage." or "Hey, you are Dalish arent you?".

Comparing that next to Hawkes family then who has an effect on various things throughout all three chapters...

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 23 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[LastFadingSmile]

The only two origins from DA:O that I really enjoyed were the City Elf and the Human Noble, and I started more human nobles than I care to mention, so no, I'm not really bothered by it. It saves me an extra step in the CC.

[MasterSamson88]

Kolotosa wrote...

The only two origins from DA:O that I really enjoyed were the City Elf and the Human Noble, and I started more human nobles than I care to mention, so no, I'm not really bothered by it. It saves me an extra step in the CC.

I'll agree with that too. I feel like out of all the origins I played in the last game Human Noble seemed to have the best story that got mentioned more than the rest of the Origins and actually had some effect on relationships, ect.

[silver-crescent]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

What's your point though really? I mean in the end I feel like the Origins were kind of a waste of writing resources that could have been put elsewhere. They were good, of course, well written, but sometimes they didn't really feel entirely needed.

Especially considering the fact that after the Origin, they almost have no effect on the story what so ever except for maybe a few things. Where they go "Hey, you are a mage." or "Hey, you are Dalish arent you?".

Comparing that next to Hawkes family then who has an effect on various things throughout all three chapters...

Well each Origin did have some fairly significative effects on the story, mostly when you get to the area where the origin takes places (mages in the circle, dwarves in Orzamar, etc).

But that's not really my point. It's more about how different each character feels from each other.

Playing as a casteless dwarf from Orzammar, or as a noble whose family was murdered, or as a mage who grew up in the circle make for more varied experiences. Or even just the simple Sheppard backgrounds add some flavor and variety (you can be a war hero born on Earth, a mercenary born on a space colony, etc).

In DA2 there is none of that. All of your Hawkes have had exactly the same past, save for knowing magic or not.

[MasterSamson88]

silver-crescent wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

What's your point though really? I mean in the end I feel like the Origins were kind of a waste of writing resources that could have been put elsewhere. They were good, of course, well written, but sometimes they didn't really feel entirely needed.

Especially considering the fact that after the Origin, they almost have no effect on the story what so ever except for maybe a few things. Where they go "Hey, you are a mage." or "Hey, you are Dalish arent you?".

Comparing that next to Hawkes family then who has an effect on various things throughout all three chapters...

Well each Origin did have some fairly significative effects on the story, mostly when you get to the area where the origin takes places (mages in the circle, dwarves in Orzamar, etc).

But that's not really my point. It's more about how different each character feels from each other.

Playing as a casteless dwarf from Orzammar, or as a noble whose family was murdered, or as a mage who grew up in the circle make for more varied experiences. Or even just the simple Sheppard backgrounds add some flavor and variety (you can be a war hero born on Earth, a mercenary born on a space colony, etc).

In DA2 there is none of that. All of your Hawkes have had exactly the same past, save for knowing magic or not.

Well yeah it felt different, but that's not really the point is it? I'm talking about after the Origin, main game. It really is the great equalizer. Apart from a few instances, whether you were a dwarf noble or commoner really didn't matter in the least. You could basically wander around all of Thedas and no one would care what your Origin was until you ran into a reoccurring character from your specific Origin. That's really the point of being a Grey Warden. Your past matters little to not at all.

[Vhalkyrie]

Not at all. I made more of an effort to have my sibling in my party on my next playthroughs, knowing they would be gone soon.

[silver-crescent]

MasterSamson88 wrote...
Well yeah it felt different, but that's not really the point is it? I'm talking about after the Origin, main game. It really is the great equalizer. Apart from a few instances, whether you were a dwarf noble or commoner really didn't matter in the least. You could basically wander around all of Thedas and no one would care what your Origin was until you ran into a reoccurring character from your specific Origin. That's really the point of being a Grey Warden. Your past matters little to not at all.

I know that. But as I said I wasn't really talking about ingame differences, but about how you see your characters. The different backgrounds add flavor to the characters and stories, despite how many ingame changes there might or might not be.

[Iecerint]

I'd say I'll play through about 3 times either way, so it's not a huge loss. Though mixing up the early game with Origins is a great way to help the player stick with it through the tedious parts of gameplay.

[Celtic Latino]

Not really since the family adds gameplay choices that do have replayability. Carver can be a Templar, Bethany a Circle Mage, either can die in the Deep Roads or become Grey Wardens. It's a more personal game that way.

Sure Origins had variety, and to its credit it does, but no matter what all characters went to Ostagar and became Grey Wardens (the same way mind you) and despite plot decisions none of them have to do with your origin personally. On the other hand, Bethany being a Circle Mage or Carver a Templar makes you think about where you stand, and I'm thinking in future expansions for DA2 that's going to have more of an impact than you think.

[JamesX]

I thought the Origins in well Origins were great additions.

The Human Noble, City Elf, and Dwarven Noble in particular. It sets up the basis of character framework for the rest of the game. A Human Noble have different reasons to do what he does as a Warden than a City Elf, than a Dwarven Noble, than a Mage, than a Daelish.

I can see why they are repetitive or senseless to those who just don't care for those little details.

Celtic Latino wrote...

Not really since the family adds gameplay choices that do have replayability. Carver can be a Templar, Bethany a Circle Mage, either can die in the Deep Roads or become Grey Wardens. It's a more personal game that way. 

Sure Origins had variety, and to its credit it does, but no matter what all characters went to Ostagar and became Grey Wardens (the same way mind you) and despite plot decisions none of them have to do with your origin personally. On the other hand, Bethany being a Circle Mage or Carver a Templar makes you think about where you stand, and I'm thinking in future expansions for DA2 that's going to have more of an impact than you think.

A Daelish Elf have no reason to hold Andraste Sacred, makes the Sacred Ash Quest's decisions different.  A Human Noble can pursuit the Throne - no one else can.  A Dwarven Noble have additional moltivation to side with Harrowmond (or Bhalin depends on how yoru player look at it).

To say they have no affect on the character's action is a bit overreaching.  

As for Bethany being Circle Mate or Carver a Templar, if being betrayed by your brother and framed for murder of your other brother isn't additional consideration (of where you stand) in the Dwarven Origin when it comes to Orzamar, then I fail to see why Bethany and Carver being where they are would warrent additional consideration either.

Modifié par JamesX, 23 mars 2011 - 05:14 .

[Lisa_H]

I think is actually adds replay value. You can have Carver, or Bethany and their fates can be very different. Shepard's different backgrounds only effect two quests, and changed some minor dialogue.

[Aeducan Himself]

silver-crescent wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

What's your point though really? I mean in the end I feel like the Origins were kind of a waste of writing resources that could have been put elsewhere. They were good, of course, well written, but sometimes they didn't really feel entirely needed.

Especially considering the fact that after the Origin, they almost have no effect on the story what so ever except for maybe a few things. Where they go "Hey, you are a mage." or "Hey, you are Dalish arent you?".

Comparing that next to Hawkes family then who has an effect on various things throughout all three chapters...

Well each Origin did have some fairly significative effects on the story, mostly when you get to the area where the origin takes places (mages in the circle, dwarves in Orzamar, etc).

But that's not really my point. It's more about how different each character feels from each other.

Playing as a casteless dwarf from Orzammar, or as a noble whose family was murdered, or as a mage who grew up in the circle make for more varied experiences. Or even just the simple Sheppard backgrounds add some flavor and variety (you can be a war hero born on Earth, a mercenary born on a space colony, etc).

In DA2 there is none of that. All of your Hawkes have had exactly the same past, save for knowing magic or not.

Eh, not really.

Was Hawke at Ostagar or not? Which of Hawke's siblings died? How did Hawke get into Kirkwall? What happened to Hawke's sibling in Kirkwall? And, subtly, what does Hawke look like compared to what people think he looks like?

There's just as much variety there as there was in DA:O or ME.

[Sarah1281]

As for Bethany being Circle Mate or Carver a Templar, if being betrayed by your brother and framed for murder of your other brother isn't additional consideration (of where you stand) in the Dwarven Origin when it comes to Orzamar, then I fail to see why Bethany and Carver being where they are would warrent additional consideration either.

Because Bethany and Carver come back to see you at different points in the game and it's different based on where they are. What happened with Trian only really affects the origin and some of Bhelen's dialogue as you can deny it or admit it no matter what really happened with anyone else.

[nyxocity]

silver-crescent wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

What's your point though really? I mean in the end I feel like the Origins were kind of a waste of writing resources that could have been put elsewhere. They were good, of course, well written, but sometimes they didn't really feel entirely needed.

Especially considering the fact that after the Origin, they almost have no effect on the story what so ever except for maybe a few things. Where they go "Hey, you are a mage." or "Hey, you are Dalish arent you?".

Comparing that next to Hawkes family then who has an effect on various things throughout all three chapters...

Well each Origin did have some fairly significative effects on the story, mostly when you get to the area where the origin takes places (mages in the circle, dwarves in Orzamar, etc).

But that's not really my point. It's more about how different each character feels from each other.

Playing as a casteless dwarf from Orzammar, or as a noble whose family was murdered, or as a mage who grew up in the circle make for more varied experiences. Or even just the simple Sheppard backgrounds add some flavor and variety (you can be a war hero born on Earth, a mercenary born on a space colony, etc).

In DA2 there is none of that. All of your Hawkes have had exactly the same past, save for knowing magic or not.

I think my biggest issue with the single origin/same family in DA2 is this: If you're a thief or a warrior, Bethany lives, which makes it tough, in my mind, to play someone who will realistically side with the Templars at ANY point in the game. Your sister is a mage--how can you feel she should be caged up/slaughtered? Of course, if you're a mage, Carver lives, and well, a mage siding with the Templars? Not likely. That's my biggest issue. Other than that (though that's a pretty big deal imo), I don't think it hinders things too much.

[JamesX]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for Bethany being Circle Mate or Carver a Templar, if being betrayed by your brother and framed for murder of your other brother isn't additional consideration (of where you stand) in the Dwarven Origin when it comes to Orzamar, then I fail to see why Bethany and Carver being where they are would warrent additional consideration either.

Because Bethany and Carver come back to see you at different points in the game and it's different based on where they are. What happened with Trian only really affects the origin and some of Bhelen's dialogue as you can deny it or admit it no matter what really happened with anyone else.

Which at the end is pointless anyways.  Because regardless of what happens (referring to the original post I was responding to) they still support you.  

If you just look at it from a mechanical/storyline point of view - They still join your party.  They still help which ever side you are on, it is still the same "ending".  The only difference is which outfit they have on (because as far as I know they have the same skill tree regardless which side they joined).

Which is why I said I can see why to some people the origins are senseless.  They  seem to only care about what happens infront of them.  They do not see one level beyond of what the game immediately presents.  

Origins in Origins is to setup the character concept.  If you look at it from only a mechanical point - E.g. which event triggers, which physical line differs in conversation, then it is rather pointless.  Origins setup the entire character reasoning and gives the player a framework from which you can choose various converstaions in the game to fit that character.

If you really don't care aobut that and feel no connection to the Noble Warrior's Family dying, or the Dwarven Origin's Betrayal, then by that logic you should be able to see the possibility that others will feel the same way about Carver/Bethany's death to the ogre - or about the death/warden or templar/mage fate.  Beacuse the logic that "well it doesn't change the ending/event any" is still true for that as well.  It is the limitation of computer gaming in a world where developer have limited resources.

Modifié par JamesX, 23 mars 2011 - 05:46 .

[silver-crescent]

JamesX wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for Bethany being Circle Mate or Carver a Templar, if being betrayed by your brother and framed for murder of your other brother isn't additional consideration (of where you stand) in the Dwarven Origin when it comes to Orzamar, then I fail to see why Bethany and Carver being where they are would warrent additional consideration either.

Because Bethany and Carver come back to see you at different points in the game and it's different based on where they are. What happened with Trian only really affects the origin and some of Bhelen's dialogue as you can deny it or admit it no matter what really happened with anyone else.

Which at the end is pointless anyways.  Because regardless of what happens (referring to the original post I was responding to) they still support you.  

If you just look at it from a mechanical/storyline point of view - They still join your party.  They still help which ever side you are on, it is still the same "ending".  The only difference is which outfit they have on (because as far as I know they have the same skill tree regardless which side they joined).

Which is why I said I can see why to some people the origins are senseless.  They  seem to only care about what happens infront of them.  They do not see one level beyond of what the game immediately presents.  

Origins in Origins is to setup the character concept.  If you look at it from only a mechanical point - E.g. which event triggers, which physical line differs in conversation, then it is rather pointless.  Origins setup the entire character reasoning and gives the player a framework from which you can choose various converstaions in the game to fit that character.

If you really don't care aobut that and feel no connection to the Noble Warrior's Family dying, or the Dwarven Origin's Betrayal, then by that logic you should be able to see the possibility that others will feel the same way about Carver/Bethany's death to the ogre - or about the death/warden or templar/mage fate.  Beacuse the logic that "well it doesn't change the ending/event any" is still true for that as well.  It is the limitation of computer gaming in a world where developer have limited resources.

Great points. That's how I see it too.