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[Kenshen]

Sloth22 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm fairly certain that Flemeth is an Old God (my money's on Zazikel - the Dragon of Chaos from the Second Blight). All it would take is one pregnant Grey Warden and BAM - liberated Old God baby. Which would totally explain how she knew to send Morrigan on the same errand. And how she IS a dragon.

If Flemeth is an Old God wouldn't she be immortal? She is trying to take Morrigan's body so she can stay alive right?

You guys make some interesting points.  I haven't read any of the books but is there any proof Flemeth really has stolen the bodies of her daughters?  I always felt Flemeth was playing Morrigan to get her to do what she wanted with that story.

[brushyourteeth]

Sloth22 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm fairly certain that Flemeth is an Old God (my money's on Zazikel - the Dragon of Chaos from the Second Blight). All it would take is one pregnant Grey Warden and BAM - liberated Old God baby. Which would totally explain how she knew to send Morrigan on the same errand. And how she IS a dragon.

If Flemeth is an Old God wouldn't she be immortal? She is trying to take Morrigan's body so she can stay alive right?

True - but I think she more or less needs bodies to stay functional, not alive.  Remember Morrigan saying that killing Flemeth wouldn't necessarily mean she was really dead or couldn't come back?  Horcuxing herself into an amulet did the trick for one.

Plus there's the fact that Morrigan needed a human body for the Old God -- thus the ritual.

and I agree completely that it seems Flemeth ought to have better things to do than scare the bejeezus out of Sandal, but crazy is crazy.

[brushyourteeth]

You guys make some interesting points.  I haven't read any of the books but is there any proof Flemeth really has stolen the bodies of her daughters?  I always felt Flemeth was playing Morrigan to get her to do what she wanted with that story.

You know I was just thinking about that today.  The only real evidence we have that Flemeth actually steals bodies (and it's hardly compelling enough for me) is the set of robes you find in her hut after you kill her that are for Morrigan -- if I remember right they had some seriously draining effects.

It's true that Morrigan went to a lot of trouble to find the Grimoire with the body-stealing in it, but Flemeth also said that Morrigan only acted the way she raised her to.

I guess the only solution we have is to hunt down the Antivan Witch of the Weyrs and see if she knows what's up!

[Sloth22]

brushyourteeth wrote...


True - but I think she more or less needs bodies to stay functional, not alive.  Remember Morrigan saying that killing Flemeth wouldn't necessarily mean she was really dead or couldn't come back?  Horcuxing herself into an amulet did the trick for one.

That makes sense, but the thing i dont get is if she is an old god, why would she want Morrigan to do the ritual with the warden? Dosnt she want to just use the baby as the next body since its an Old God which she might already be?

[TillyBomas]

Well... since the 'Dark Ritual' is the Canon sequence of events apparently, as is Killing Flemeth, Lilliana surviving, and such, I am just curious what the baby is going to be. Or how the Architect or Brood Mother are going to fit into it all.... Intellegent Darkspawn.... Old God Humans... its getting all kinds of complicated.

[CMP023]

I have some thoughts about Flemeth stealing Morrigans body.

One way to look at it would be that Flemeth WANTED Morrigan to believe that, so she would never seek Flemeth out again, and dedicate herself to train the Old god baby. Also, if you remember correctly, Morrigan found some crazy stuff in Flemeths grimoire (Which sadly she does not share with you). So there is a lot more in there than just Flemeths body-stealing shenanigans.

I dont really think that Flemeth wanted Morrigans body. It wouldnt make sense sending her away in some apparently very important errand, and then possessing her body. Why not posses her body first, and do it herself? She is a BAMF Witch of the Wilds anyway, pretty much capable of doing whatever the hell she wants.

 Also, when you go to her hut to kill her, she is reluctant to offer any explanation, even an excuse. Instead, she just fights you and dies. Now, if she wanted Morrigan to conceive an Old God baby, killing one of the last Wardens (One that also is leading Morrigan to her destination) wouldn't be a very smart idea. 

I think she lets herself get killed. She is a big friggin dragon, why not just fly away and forget about those punny little ants below trying to kill you? She knew (Or rather, she wanted) that eventually Morrigan would want her dead, so she gives the Champion the "horocruxed" amulet, even before anyone knew anything about her wanting to steal the body of Morrigan. And it is obvious she wanted to go to Kirkwall, since that is where she is sending the amulet. So apparently, she has stuff to do there. All the more reasons for letting Morrigan/the Warden think she is dead. 

Modifié par CMP023, 25 mars 2011 - 01:45 .

[Kenshen]

Even if you take down Flemeth with the warden Morrigan says she doesn't truly believe Flemeth can be killed but it would take her time to be a threat again. And we all can agree that Femeth has a master plan for something and everything she does has a purpose. The amulet thing reminds me of NWN 2's Mask of the Betrayer. Just a small piece of the whole that allows Flemeth to be everywhere. What I don't get is why does Flemeth need Hawke to take her to the Free Marches. I would think someone with the kind of power she has could get there on her own without anyone knowing.

[Pinely]

aryon69 wrote...

Even if you take down Flemeth with the warden Morrigan says she doesn't truly believe Flemeth can be killed but it would take her time to be a threat again. And we all can agree that Femeth has a master plan for something and everything she does has a purpose. The amulet thing reminds me of NWN 2's Mask of the Betrayer. Just a small piece of the whole that allows Flemeth to be everywhere. What I don't get is why does Flemeth need Hawke to take her to the Free Marches. I would think someone with the kind of power she has could get there on her own without anyone knowing.

I think Flemeth is playing Xanatos Speed Chess (Not goint to link TV Tropes because I don't want to ruin someone's day).  She insists upon Morrigan leaving, which implies that she may be behind the attempt to "free" the Old God from the Blight.  At the same time, she knows that Morrigan may turn around and try to kill her.

At this point, either by chance or unbelievable forsight, Flemeth runs into the Champion, who happens to be bound for Kirkwall.  Where there happens to be a Dalish Keeper that owes Flemeth a favor.  And the Champion happens to follow through with the plan.  Does she have other failsafes?  I wouldn't doubt it.  But, being a cunning manipulator, Flemeth takes a seemingly random happening and encorporates it into her unknowable plan.

[Sloth22]

Pinely wrote...


I think Flemeth is playing Xanatos Speed Chess (Not goint to link TV Tropes because I don't want to ruin someone's day).  She insists upon Morrigan leaving, which implies that she may be behind the attempt to "free" the Old God from the Blight. 

I thought Morrigan knew that she sent her with the warden to do the ritual?

[Strofo]

The dalish keeper does owe Flemeth a favor, and it just happens to be the keeper who's clan discovered the mirror? The mirror seems to be a very important part of the story. Also, in the dalish origins story, Tamlen sais he sees something dark whispering to him. And, Morrigan sais that the mirrors lead to something farther then the Fade. I think that the mirrors might link to the black city. I mean, it's tainted by evil and (as far as we know) it's impossible to get there. There has to be something there, and it must be something that Flemeth wants, as did the Tevinter Magisters. Also, we can't forget about what Sandal said.... it's creepy. 

Modifié par Strofo, 27 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[IronWolf1987]

Interesting idea about the mirrors being a way to get to the Golden/Black city. Perhaps it was because of that fact that led the Imperium to first conquer Arlathan? Another thought if the Dalish were reclaiming and rediscovering Arlathan magic and culture perhaps they too discovered that the mirrors could get you to the black city and that's what caused the Chantry to bring an exalted march upon them? (I've always been suspicious about the dalish reasoning for the exalted march "They made war upon us because we were different" just seems so one dimensional for the chantry.)

[PantheraOnca]

IronWolf1987 wrote...

(I've always been suspicious about the dalish reasoning for the exalted march "They made war upon us because we were different" just seems so one dimensional for the chantry.)

i didnt feel there was any need for an explanation for such exalted marches. its pretty much a reference to the crusades.


edit:
as far as i am aware, the wild witch tales mention her beauty and black hair, so i assume that flemeth does a body inhabitation to a new host every so often. I also think that she probably doesn't destroy the host mind in the process but rather absorbs or incorporates it, and that may be why she raises the daughters to turn out a certain way (she may even custom design their personalities so that she gains something new with each host, but thats all conjecture).

also, i let flemeth live and just told morrigan i killed her, cause morrigan deserves to be lied to a little bit.

Modifié par PantheraOnca, 26 mars 2011 - 11:49 .

[Custodire]

I thought Merril was being groomed to be another of Flemeth's "daughters", and she'd been led down the path with the mirror.

[Freestorm Skinn]

Maybe Flemeth goes to Hawke's house to check on Sandal because she knows who he really is and how he ended up where he is.

She might be laughing in a "Look how far you've fallen, you poor fool" sort of way.

[3SG Sage]

Um.... maybe some writer at Bioware just thought it would be something amusing for Sandel to say and there is no hidden, crypitic meaning.

[Ser Mix-a-lot]

How exactly does magic return? Isn't it already there, mages use it all the time?

[Ixalmaris]

Ser Mix-a-lot wrote...

How exactly does magic return? Isn't it already there, mages use it all the time?

Except dwarves.

[SLPr0]

I think I'm going to throw a minority opinion and just say whats on my mind when I contemplate Flemeth and what she may be.

I think the fanatics in Haven were worshiping the wrong dragon.

We all know that over millenia, religions and the way they retell and reshape the stories of their divine beings tends to shift and change so much that the original story is never quite what people are saying thousands of years later.

So we have Andraste, the Bride of the Maker...as it were, burned at the stake by the Tervinter Imperium and all the standard Chantry nonsense. The prophet of the Maker, who also apparently saw fit to accept elves and their magic and the gods the elves believed in, to make war on the Tervinter Imperium. And the Tervinter Imperium worshipped the old gods, or the dragons as it were.

Then we have Flemeth, who's roots in DA:O aren't so well fleshed out but by DA2 its obvious the elves have known about her for centuries.

My theory is that Flemeth is the walking form of Andraste, Bride of the Maker, her death at the stake in Tervinter was merely the first time she'd used the trick of casting a part of herself away from the whole, and what better form would be effective to master for battling old gods, than a dragon herself?

This is just wild subjective theory crafting. But as all religions down the ages have shown, the truth and what is eventually preached have vast differences. Meanings and intentions and facts get lost in metaphors and allegories for explaining and forgiving human nature.

So its possible that Flemeth goes back, well as far as our story goes back really. To the first Exalted March. And that she is seeing a greater plan, over many millenia, and thus why her role seems so hard to put a finger on, because shes not just thinking in years or even centuries.

Might be a bit out there to say the Witch of the Wilds is the Bride of the Maker, Andraste...but I sorta got an odd feeling about things after going to the Black Emporium and reading the codex entries there. Flemeth's been around a long time...long enough to be revered in elven legend even though all our Warden recruits, in DA:O know of her is local myths of the "Witch of the Wilds".

The codex entry at the Black Emporium refers to her as the Witch of the Weyrs, Weyr has had a recent meaning in fantasy fiction history, in regards to the Dragon Riders of Pern, but, Weyr also is a pre-Norman invasion word for deep lake if I remember my horrendously old literature correctly.

Which would not, in fact, have Witch of the Weyrs referring to "Witch of the Dragon Clutches" but "Witch of the Lakes", and perhaps not unlike Sir Thomas Morley's classic Lady of the Lake, Flemeth represents a link to a glorious, mystical, and forgotten past.

Just theories. But if someone tells me David Gaider hasn't read Sir Thomas Morley I will eat my boot.

[Custodire]

SLPr0 wrote...

My theory is that Flemeth is the walking form of Andraste, Bride of the Maker, her death at the stake in Tervinter was merely the first time she'd used the trick of casting a part of herself away from the whole, and what better form would be effective to master for battling old gods, than a dragon herself?

That's a very interesting theory and would be quite the twist. Even if it doesn't pan out to be true, it's very creative.

If I had come up with this idea, I'd mark down the time and date that I called it.

[Capeo]

It certainly seems like Sandal is being set up as a major player somehow and that Flemeth has some interest in him. His prophecy:

Sandal: One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were. The shadows will part and the skies will open wide.
Bodahn: Huh? What's this?
Sandal: When he rises, everyone will see.
Bodahn: By the ancestors! What has gotten into you, my boy?
Sandal: Enchantment!
Bodahn: That's more like it!

sounds an awful lot like that "he" is the Old God Baby. Sandal also has killed lots of powerful monsters off-screen in every game and DLC he's featured in. Maybe Flemeth's appearing in those moments and protecting him for some reason. If not her, and he's doing it himself, then he is incredibly powerful, or channeling something incredibly powerful.

[t0mm06]

Sloth22 wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

I'm fairly certain that Flemeth is an Old God (my money's on Zazikel - the Dragon of Chaos from the Second Blight). All it would take is one pregnant Grey Warden and BAM - liberated Old God baby. Which would totally explain how she knew to send Morrigan on the same errand. And how she IS a dragon.

If Flemeth is an Old God wouldn't she be immortal? She is trying to take Morrigan's body so she can stay alive right?

Well, she did know exactly what Morrigan was going to do (as if she had planned it) so it is entirely possible that she never really had previous daughters and planted the evidence so morrigan did what she  wanted, note that she seems to hold no resentment towards morrigan or the warden for 'killing' her so, so it was probably her plan (for some reasons or other) she did mention that she needed to get soemwhere without anyone knowing so maybe she saw it as the most convinient way? 

[Evillittlebunni]

I think it would be amazing if it turns out that every creature is capable of magic and "the maker" somehow was able to put a stop to that. Then when the "Old-god" child returns he gives the gift of magic back to everyone. That would really mess the Templars and the Chantry up, especially is the elves are way more powerful than the humans which is likely to be that case.

[RubiconI7]

Thus the reason why you cannot access your mother's room in the mansion.