258 réponses à ce sujet

[Joe_8998]

The last topic ended up being locked because of the sheer volume of flaming and insults being slung back and forth. I'm hoping we can continue the discussion in a more civil manner here.

Anyway, it really seems like a copout to make all the companions bisexual. Maybe they wanted to make it so that anyone could romance any party member, and not have to worry about gender or starting a new playthrough to experience it.

But it just seems so... unlikely. All of the varied and interesting people I picked up on my adventure swing both ways? Does the population of Thedas have a much greater percentage of bisexual citizens than our world?

Apparently though, your characters are either gay or straight depending upon what gender your Hawke is. So I guess bisexual is technically the wrong term, as the people in your party are in different "universes" depending on whether Hawke is male or female. Somebody had mentioned that things like Anders' prior relationship with Karl changes dependent upon your gender. If you are male, he was a former lover. If you are female, he was just a friend.

I find that to be so stupid. Somebody in the last topic topic mentioned that characters should be written as characters, not variables, and I completely agree. Anders appeared to be quite the ladies' man in Awakening. I think he even hits on Mhairi when you first encounter him at the Keep. What the hell happened?

So the personality, sexual orientation, and even history of your party changes dynamically depending upon whether or not you play as a male or female? Really? Come on. So your party members are just fluid, ever-changing set pieces, and not truly well-defined characters in themselves?

I find that really disappointing.

[BlameBot]

Why recreate a topic that was locked and flamed out of control? Are you expecting a different result with the exact same topic?

[BeljoraDien]

Get it 'straight'?

Anders is obviously straight, as evidence from Awakenings. Justice on the other hand... well, let's just say Anders is not the first man he has 'entered'. This makes for some awkward mornings roll-overs for Anders, to say the least.

[BlameBot]

I can almost feel your eyebrows waggling at your cleverosity.

[A5ko]

BeljoraDien wrote...

Get it 'straight'?

Anders is obviously straight, as evidence from Awakenings. Justice on the other hand... well, let's just say Anders is not the first man he has 'entered'. This makes for some awkward mornings roll-overs for Anders, to say the least.

That shouldn't of been funny.... but it was.

[Bathead]

I really don't see why this is even a big deal at all. Seems like a non-issue to me.

[cptncanuck]

They are characters; how does the tiny detail of how said characters like to love make any difference? Is Anders who falls in love with a woman so different than Anders who falls in love with a man? What about Merrill? They seem to me like the same people regardless of what sex Hawke is.

Personally, I don't think what way Merrill swings has any sway over who she is as a character, and it is her relationship with Hawke that matters - not whether or not that relationship is homosexual or heterosexual.
On another note, I don't consider past relationships to be vastly important to determining who I am as a person? Do you? Should the characters in DA2?
Lots of people act differently towards male and female friends, so what is so surprising about the possibility of Anders talking to a woman differently than he does a man?

I find that this topic is being treated as more serious than it is.

[Iamnotahater]

EDITED BLANK

Modifié par Iamnotahater, 23 mars 2011 - 06:39 .

[Aesieru]

Fixing a topic is a known way to redeem a conversation, if it stays fine, I'll see no reason to redirect flames again.

[Jordy Laforge]

Wasn't the 100's of replies in the last thread enough to get a general answer for you. Oh you just want another flame war. Have fun guys!

[the_one_54321]

I will just say again that characters should be written as characters, not as variables. They are supposed to be their own people. Sure, they can react to your actions. Hardening or softening Alistair or Leliana was done fairly well. But the "I am bi, gay, or straight based on whether or not you are bi, gay, or straight is just an example of very poor writing.

[rubydog1]

I'm straight and I've got no problem with bisexual NPCs.

It's a video game.

[BlameBot]

rubydog1 wrote...

I'm straight and I've got no problem with bisexual NPCs.

It's a video game.

So, it's fine if they're in games, just not in reality?

/dissemble

[the_one_54321]

It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

[Mykel54]

Well the thing is, if people are now complaining about each character being bisexual (i understand the point), then people would also complain if they could not romance, say, anders, with their male hawke. So it is ironic that the current road that bioware has taken is the one that leads to less complain, as everyone can have a romance if they wish to.

Personally, i think it was a good idea, but i would go ahead and change something: make each companion hetero or ****** for default, in the case of anders say he is straight due to awakenings. Then when you play a male hawke, if and only if, you hit on him, then you discover that he is homosexual.

The point would be to have a default sexual orientation, that can change if the player expreses a desire on romancing that companion. This way the character is consistent unless the player decides to change it, in the same way that merril is a blood mage, unless your hawke convinces her to stop using blood magic. An intervention of the player changes the behaviour of a companion, in the same way, an romantic intervention of hawke would be able to change the default sexual orientation of the companion.

Just my 2 cents.

Modifié par Mykel54, 23 mars 2011 - 06:49 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

I don't like the change at all. To me, that decision was made for marketing purposes alone, just to satisfy all the "QQ we want gay romances QQ" people...and that's pretty sad, it's nothing but exploiting a certain sexual orientation.

The main problem to me is that it just takes any credibility away. Everyone is bi? Extremely unlikely. Zevhran was an awesome example on how to make a gay character: he was unique and his homosexuality fit to his entire concept, I really had the feeling that he was gay because that's how the writers actually wrote him. It feels like its part of his whole personality except of just a marketing decision.

Then again, I killed him in every but one playthrough. Sorry, this is a straight party, bro.

Anyway, it's just poor writing. It feels like Bioware wrote every character and then, afterwards, decided to make them bisexual. That's poor, lazy and immoral.

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 23 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[BlameBot]

Zevran wasn't too picky on sexuality. Neither was Leliana.

Modifié par BlameBot, 23 mars 2011 - 06:51 .

[Iamnotahater]

That's the problem it just wasn't believable to me,

1. 2/3 companions are bisexual? I know they want to give GTBL choices but in reality that is too high
2. The chantry allowing an atmosphere in which your companions feel comfortable coming on to hawke without being sure
3. The rose having more male companions then female companions.
4. Gaining Rivalry points by turning down unwanted sexual advances from your companions

To me I have no problem with gays, transgenders, lesbians or whatever, But it felt like they forced the situation upon my character (who was totally badass and would have likely thrown out any gay party member who hit on him).

[FellowerOfOdin]

I agree with Leliana but Zevhran was....well...you could smell his sexuality miles away. He had that..certain...gay accent, you know what I mean, no offense, I just don't know how to express it, and his love for shoes was...well, you get it.

[BeljoraDien]

Mykel54 wrote...

Well the thing is, if people are now complaining about each character being bisexual (i understand the point), then people would also complain if they could not romance, say, anders, with their male hawke. So it is ironic that the current road that bioware has taken is the one that leads to less complain, as everyone can have a romance if they wish to.

Personally, i think it was a good idea, but i would go ahead and change something: make each companion hetero or ****** for default, in the case of anders say he is straight due to awakenings. Then when you play a male hawke, if and only if, you hit on him, then you discover that he is homosexual.

The point would be to have a default sexual orientation, that can change if the player expreses a desire on romancing that companion. This way the character is consistent unless the player decides to change it, in the same way that merril is a blood mage, unless your hawke convinces her to stop using blood magic. An intervention of the player changes the behaviour of a companion, in the same way, an romantic intervention of hawke would be able to change the default sexual orientation of the companion.

Just my 2 cents.

Toggle.


Settings>Sexual orientation

              Gay            Straight
Anders     [  ]               [X]
Fenris       [X]               [  ]
Merrill       [X]               [  ]
Isabella    [  ]               [X]

Edit: Damn, that was difficult to format.

Modifié par BeljoraDien, 23 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[Iamnotahater]

Mykel54 wrote...

Well the thing is, if people are now complaining about each character being bisexual (i understand the point), then people would also complain if they could not romance, say, anders, with their male hawke. So it is ironic that the current road that bioware has taken is the one that leads to less complain, as everyone can have a romance if they wish to.

Personally, i think it was a good idea, but i would go ahead and change something: make each companion hetero or ****** for default, in the case of anders say he is straight due to awakenings. Then when you play a male hawke, if and only if, you hit on him, then you discover that he is homosexual.

The point would be to have a default sexual orientation, that can change if the player expreses a desire on romancing that companion. This way the character is consistent unless the player decides to change it, in the same way that merril is a blood mage, unless your hawke convinces her to stop using blood magic. An intervention of the player changes the behaviour of a companion, in the same way, an romantic intervention of hawke would be able to change the default sexual orientation of the companion.

Just my 2 cents.

The problem was it was nothing more then lazy writing for those looking to pursue a gay releationship.

Bioware Dev 1 : We got criticized for not providing choices in relationships for gay or lesbian end-users should we create an exclusively gay or lesbian character for DAII?

Laidlaw: Don't worry I have another shortcut in mind. I'll just make every character swing both ways.

Bioware Dev 1: Brilliant.

Modifié par Iamnotahater, 23 mars 2011 - 07:00 .

[BlameBot]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

I agree with Leliana but Zevhran was....well...you could smell his sexuality miles away. He had that..certain...gay accent, you know what I mean, no offense, I just don't know how to express it, and his love for shoes was...well, you get it.

Sure. You must be gay if you love shoes.

But seriously, he was very open about his sexuality. He just loved sex. Males, females, young, old. He didn't so much seem gay as seeming not to care too much about who he was having sex with, just the pleasure of having sex.

Whereas you really had to work for Leliana.

Modifié par BlameBot, 23 mars 2011 - 07:01 .

[Dark83]

The history of the entire world changes according to what we import too. Oh noes!

Besides of which, they're not heterosexual OR homosexual. They're Hawkesexual.

[highcastle]

I don't believe characters sexuality is dependent on Hawke's gender. I think what Anders chooses to tell Hawke is dependent on Hawke's gender. If Hawke is male, Anders brings up Karl being a lover to let Hawke know he's that way inclined. I believe no matter what Anders is interested in Hawke, and sharing this relationship is one way to make that interest known. If Hawke is female, there's no need to share this fact, at least not at the present, because we as a people (and Thedas seems to share this) are heteronormative. That is, we assume people are straight unless proven otherwise.

I'm actually for all companions being love interests for both genders. It opens up options to others and it doesn't hurt anyone. I don't get this whole "it's not realistic" argument either. Point A: it's a fantasy game. Realism only goes so far. Point B: read Virgina Woolfe, Jeanette Winterson, and other authors who touch upon gender, gender roles, and sexuality. Or read the research by Kinsey.

We tend to place people in this binary divide. Male and female (gender role, not biological sex). Gay or straight. We have a hard time finding middle ground. But that doesn't mean that middle ground doesn't exist. Kinsey suggested most people are bisexual to some degree or another. Woolfe suggested gender doesn't play a role in sexual attraction (or shouldn't, anyway), that we're attracted to people as themselves, not as male or female. Actually, listening to Anders talk about his ideas on love and Karl in particular support Woolfe's interpretation. He says he believes people fall in love with a whole person.

So don't say these things cheapen a character. They absolutely do not. It's not pandering, either, not if done well. And Anders' whole conversation makes it clear the writers have some knowledge of this subject. I was actually really impressed by it (although maybe I'm just seeing connections because of a recent re-read of Orlando).

One thing that would cheapen the experience is the inclusion of a toggle. No. Just no. If you find sexuality offensive, then don't play this game. And don't watch any movies or TV shows that portray relationships outside your comfort zone. Don't read Orlando or Written on the Body. Those things will scare you. And no one is forcing you to do any of this stuff. But it's out there. It should be incorporated in any artform which claims to speak about the human experience. As DA2 is a personal game about one (wo)man's rise to power and relationships with those around them, all facets of their life should be explored. And as this is an RPG, it should be up to the player to determine how their life unfolds. If your Hawke is not queer in some manner (I dislike the term bisexual for reasons that could be their own rant), then don't flirt with characters of the same gender. But don't force heteronormativity on the rest of us.

[optimates0193]

A lot of people think the issue is one of homophobia, but I don't believe that's the root cause of these complaints whatsoever. Really, it truly is ridiculous that nearly everyone is bisexual and when you get down to it, it affects the game negatively in two ways:

1: It kills the suspension of disbelief. Every time I saw a romance option come up when it seemed completely out of place and unrealistic, it's as if the game is slapping you in the face and screaming, "This is a game! You can have sex with everyone! Hurray!" It basically kills immersion and prevents you from suspending your disbelief. The other part of this is that the Dark/Medieval ages, upon which this setting is based, was never known to be friendly to GBLT individuals. This could really make for some interesting stories and tension. Instead, much like the Blood Mage Hawke / Templar issues, it seems people in this world have absolutely no issue with being GBLT, to the point where complete strangers feel absolutely comfortable openly hitting on someone of the same sex five minutes after meeting. It's just as silly as Hawke sucking the blood from a corpse in front of a Templar with no repercussions.

2: It weakens the characters. One of the more common complaints to this game is that the NPC's are generally weak and forgettable and this is partly why. Sexuality is a huge part of our identity and many of the actions we take are in one way or another driven by it. By having nearly every character be bisexual, you rob that character of a lot of depth they may have otherwise had in dealing with their issues and how they interact with others. I would love to see a gay character who might have to struggle with persecution and who may develop over time to overcome and accept it or be destroyed by it due to society's mores. Instead, you have a series of characters that just adapt to whatever the situation suits and as a result, they're not believable or likable. Even worse, it makes them boring. It's a common theme with the game unfortunately, where everything has been made accessible to everyone and what results is a flavorless mash of mediocrity.