258 réponses à ce sujet

[Vindicis]

You guys aren't all that bright, are you....troll post is obvious to everyone but the DA2 lovers.

[mesmerizedish]

Vindicis wrote...

You guys aren't all that bright, are you....

MorningBird's shy, so we dance in the dark.

[MorningBird]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MorningBird's shy, so we dance in the dark.

Poor lighting does terrible things to my features.

[City6]

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Wow..I cannot believe this debate is still going on. Is everynody not just going around in circles by now?? I can't be arsed reading what I have missed so can someone please give me a swift update please?

One group feels icky about the idea that somewhere, in someone else's game, their love interest is getting it on with a same sex Hawke. THIS IS BAD WRITING.

One groups worries about THE POOR CHILDREN, should they find out lesbians exist.
There's something about the lesbian cop emicon () going on I don't understand.

And everyone else likes the fact that with limited resources, they made the maximum options availible.

[Vindicis]

City6 wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Wow..I cannot believe this debate is still going on. Is everynody not just going around in circles by now?? I can't be arsed reading what I have missed so can someone please give me a swift update please?

One group feels icky about the idea that somewhere, in someone else's game, their love interest is getting it on with a same sex Hawke. THIS IS BAD WRITING.

One groups worries about THE POOR CHILDREN, should they find out lesbians exist.
There's something about the lesbian cop emicon () going on I don't understand.

And everyone else likes the fact that with limited resources, they made the maximum options availible.

And, finally, the enlightened masses realize bioware couldn't write their way out of wet paper bag and should just leave the whole romance out completely.

[City6]

Vindicis wrote...

City6 wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Wow..I cannot believe this debate is still going on. Is everynody not just going around in circles by now?? I can't be arsed reading what I have missed so can someone please give me a swift update please?

One group feels icky about the idea that somewhere, in someone else's game, their love interest is getting it on with a same sex Hawke. THIS IS BAD WRITING.

One groups worries about THE POOR CHILDREN, should they find out lesbians exist.
There's something about the lesbian cop emicon () going on I don't understand.

And everyone else likes the fact that with limited resources, they made the maximum options availible.

And, finally, the enlightened masses realize bioware couldn't write their way out of wet paper bag and should just leave the whole romance out completely.

I think for all the terrible in DA2, the quality of the dialogue is still top-notch.

[nijnij]

[Iamnotahater]

City6 wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...

How many kids do you played this game? How many do you think have had gay experiences or know gay individuals?

Like or not Bioware has made this game poltical by forcing the player to turn down gay advances.

BioWare is doing no such thing. They could *gasp* accept the advances?

Also, that still has nothing to do with socialism. Troll harder.

I don't really care what you think at this point. You're not going to change my opinion and I certaintly have no interest in saving you.

The point is by exposing children to gay advances within the game Bioware has sent out a poltical statement. You may think thats all fine and dandy and you are welcome to that opinion. But the majority of people who play video games are straight males not members of LGBT.

It will be interesting to see if fox or another media outlet picks up on this and it ends up hurting them. It's one thing to romance aliens it's another for the video game to get the "gay" label.

Firstly, DA2 is rated for 17 and over, and if you're a parent who is concerned, why are you letting your children play a game marked for people 17 and over?

Secondly, this still has absolutly nothing to do with socialism, and throwing around words that you have no idea the meaning
of makes you look profoundly silly, and severly undermines whatever arguement you may have had.

Apparehently, you have no idea what socialism is or the socialist agenda. I have neither the time or inclination to educate you on either.

Google is your friend. 

"

[City6]

Iamnotahater wrote...

City6 wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...

How many kids do you played this game? How many do you think have had gay experiences or know gay individuals?

Like or not Bioware has made this game poltical by forcing the player to turn down gay advances.

BioWare is doing no such thing. They could *gasp* accept the advances?

Also, that still has nothing to do with socialism. Troll harder.

I don't really care what you think at this point. You're not going to change my opinion and I certaintly have no interest in saving you.

The point is by exposing children to gay advances within the game Bioware has sent out a poltical statement. You may think thats all fine and dandy and you are welcome to that opinion. But the majority of people who play video games are straight males not members of LGBT.

It will be interesting to see if fox or another media outlet picks up on this and it ends up hurting them. It's one thing to romance aliens it's another for the video game to get the "gay" label.

Firstly, DA2 is rated for 17 and over, and if you're a parent who is concerned, why are you letting your children play a game marked for people 17 and over?

Secondly, this still has absolutly nothing to do with socialism, and throwing around words that you have no idea the meaning
of makes you look profoundly silly, and severly undermines whatever arguement you may have had.

Apparehently, you have no idea what socialism is or the socialist agenda. I have neither the time or inclination to educate you on either.

Google is your friend. 

"

I'm perfectly aware of what socialism is, and I can guarentee you it has absolutly nothng to do with bisexual characters in video games.

I'd recommend opening a book, rather than watching a particular news network.

[nijnij]

@Imnotahater Bioware hasn't released a political statement. Bioware aknowledged the fact that some people are gay. If that to you is a political statement, what isn't. That you find alien-romancing more acceptable than aknowledging there are gay people is quite bewildering. You do sound a bit like a hater to me.

[optimates0193]

City6 wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Wow..I cannot believe this debate is still going on. Is everynody not just going around in circles by now?? I can't be arsed reading what I have missed so can someone please give me a swift update please?

One group feels icky about the idea that somewhere, in someone else's game, their love interest is getting it on with a same sex Hawke. THIS IS BAD WRITING.

One groups worries about THE POOR CHILDREN, should they find out lesbians exist.
There's something about the lesbian cop emicon () going on I don't understand.

And everyone else likes the fact that with limited resources, they made the maximum options availible.

In all fairness, I checked out of this thread at about page 6, so I don't know what happened in those other 6 pages. That said, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I and several others posted our reasoning, and it has nothing to do with the reasons you're citing (At least in those first 6 pages).

This idea that everything has to be accessible to everyone boggles my mind. Part of the fun of an RPG is making decisions (sometimes tough ones) and living with the effect of those decisions. That's what gives these sorts of games meaning, depth, and replayability. I'm all for having options, but if I'm handed every possible option (In some casees, beat over the head with it) and I can achieve everything, it's just silly and removes the consequences of choices the player can make.

[optimates0193]

As for the person that is saying this is some type of political statement from Bioware... no, just no. Bioware's not trying to make any sort of political statement. That's equally silly. The cynic in me says at worse Bioware did this in an attempt to drum up controversy to get free press, ala ME 1. Even then, I doubt it. They're just trying to attract everyone they possibly can. Tin foil hat conspiracies do not apply.

[City6]

optimates0193 wrote...

City6 wrote...

CaptainIsabela wrote...

Wow..I cannot believe this debate is still going on. Is everynody not just going around in circles by now?? I can't be arsed reading what I have missed so can someone please give me a swift update please?

One group feels icky about the idea that somewhere, in someone else's game, their love interest is getting it on with a same sex Hawke. THIS IS BAD WRITING.

One groups worries about THE POOR CHILDREN, should they find out lesbians exist.
There's something about the lesbian cop emicon () going on I don't understand.

And everyone else likes the fact that with limited resources, they made the maximum options availible.

In all fairness, I checked out of this thread at about page 6, so I don't know what happened in those other 6 pages. That said, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I and several others posted our reasoning, and it has nothing to do with the reasons you're citing (At least in those first 6 pages).

This idea that everything has to be accessible to everyone boggles my mind. Part of the fun of an RPG is making decisions (sometimes tough ones) and living with the effect of those decisions. That's what gives these sorts of games meaning, depth, and replayability. I'm all for having options, but if I'm handed every possible option (In some casees, beat over the head with it) and I can achieve everything, it's just silly and removes the consequences of choices the player can make.

I don't want "everything avaliable to everyone". And I want choices to have significant impacts.

But this about a very specific thing: romances. There are sometimes 2, usually 3 or 4, in Bioware games. They take a lot of resources to make. They've stated, over and over again, the they simply can't allocate enough resources to make a deep, purely gay romance option (and it also means "Want to play gay? Here's the romance, you better like it)". These are huge chunks of content. It would like not having the Wounded Coast avaliable if you happened to play a female.

Doing what they did this time is the best of all worlds. It provides gay players with the same depth that stright players have come to expect, as well as the same choice.

The downside is that for some people, the idea that in an alternate gameplay, character A is also interested in men/women. That seems like a tiny downside given the benefit. It seems so insanly miniscule to kick up a fuss given the benefits, that many people presume that there's an ulterior motive here. In at least 2 or 3 posters here, there clearly is: they don't want yucky gay stuff even as an *option* in their game. As for what's motivating the rest, I don't know. I find the arguemnts flimsy and baffling.

[nijnij]

optimates0193 wrote...
The cynic in me says at worse Bioware did this in an attempt to drum up controversy to get free press, ala ME 1.

I think you're seeing more than there is to it, they just know from the boards that romances were a huge part of Dragon Age Origins' appeal and they're doing a bit of fanservice. The fact that people complain about an option that is available for others is quite selfish and immature to me.

[optimates0193]

nijnij wrote...

optimates0193 wrote...
The cynic in me says at worse Bioware did this in an attempt to drum up controversy to get free press, ala ME 1.

I think you're seeing more than there is to it, they just know from the boards that romances were a huge part of Dragon Age Origins' appeal and they're doing a bit of fanservice. The fact that people complain about an option that is available for others is quite selfish and immature to me.

I understand where you and city are coming from and I can appreciate your points and why you feel this way. That said, I don't agree. In my first post in this thread, I explained my reasoning. You can see the full thing (it's at the end of page 2 I think) but basically, it comes down to fact that the way it's setup kills the suspension of disbelief (at least for myself) and that ultimately, it weakens the characters and makes it impossible, or at least, far more difficult for the writers to make them relatable and believable.

Now, the above is purely subjective. I don't think we're going to convince each other any time soon, because we value different things in games. Neither is right or wrong, we can just state our positions and hope Bioware agrees with our points.

But yeah, when it comes to some sort of meta argument that people are upset because others have the choice to have a gay relationship, that is stupid and you won't find me arguing that. Same thing with we need to protect the children. If you as a parent don't want your kid to see that sort of content, don't censor the content, control your kid. But really, I don't think that the large majority of people who are against this feel that way. I think these options just feel very gamey and only serve to ruin the immersion and make the player realize exactly what they're doing, playing a game. Immersion and being able to suspend your disbelief is important and this serves to have the opposite effect.

[City6]

optimates0193 wrote...

nijnij wrote...

optimates0193 wrote...
The cynic in me says at worse Bioware did this in an attempt to drum up controversy to get free press, ala ME 1.

I think you're seeing more than there is to it, they just know from the boards that romances were a huge part of Dragon Age Origins' appeal and they're doing a bit of fanservice. The fact that people complain about an option that is available for others is quite selfish and immature to me.

I understand where you and city are coming from and I can appreciate your points and why you feel this way. That said, I don't agree. In my first post in this thread, I explained my reasoning. You can see the full thing (it's at the end of page 2 I think) but basically, it comes down to fact that the way it's setup kills the suspension of disbelief (at least for myself) and that ultimately, it weakens the characters and makes it impossible, or at least, far more difficult for the writers to make them relatable and believable.

Now, the above is purely subjective. I don't think we're going to convince each other any time soon, because we value different things in games. Neither is right or wrong, we can just state our positions and hope Bioware agrees with our points.

But yeah, when it comes to some sort of meta argument that people are upset because others have the choice to have a gay relationship, that is stupid and you won't find me arguing that. Same thing with we need to protect the children. If you as a parent don't want your kid to see that sort of content, don't censor the content, control your kid. But really, I don't think that the large majority of people who are against this feel that way. I think these options just feel very gamey and only serve to ruin the immersion and make the player realize exactly what they're doing, playing a game. Immersion and being able to suspend your disbelief is important and this serves to have the opposite effect.

It's also pretty gamey that in a group of 6 people, 4 of them seem to want to do some naked wrestling.

I think we just have to accept that there are three options: 1) Produce much more content so that every taste is catered for, uniquely (not going to happen), 2) That these people "just happen" to be avalible options for Hawke, as gamey as that is or 3) Only straight males players get a romance option (after all, 80% of players probably fit that demographic).

I think option 2, the route Bioware took, wins on the old "pros and cons" scale.

[-leadintea-]

^ Where's option 4? Do it the same as Origins?

[City6]

Thunderbringer wrote...

^ Where's option 4? Do it the same as Origins?

So it's ethically fine for gay players to have a romance that also is open to straight players, but not the other way around?

[Iamnotahater]

Look I'm going to argue what Bioware intent was but the fact of the matter they did make a political message by making a AAA game where the PC was hit on early on by gay NPC's.

I can't think of a recent RPG/FPS that has done that like ever...at least with male NPC's.

Maybe just maybe there was a reason for that? Nah. it's easier to bash the world by calling them trolls and homophobes.

[City6]

Iamnotahater wrote...

Look I'm going to argue what Bioware intent was but the fact of the matter they did make a political message by making a AAA game where the PC was hit on early on by gay NPC's.

I can't think of a recent RPG/FPS that has done that like ever...at least with male NPC's.

Maybe just maybe there was a reason for that? Nah. it's easier to bash the world by calling them trolls and homophobes.

It's a 17+ game, and I think you might be truely terrified by some Japanese rpgs.....

Having gay characters in a game world is no more "political" than having black characters or women wearing trousers. These things exist in the world. Reflecting they exist isn't "political". Specifically excluding them, of course, is.

Modifié par City6, 24 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[nijnij]

optimates0193 wrote...

nijnij wrote...

optimates0193 wrote...
The cynic in me says at worse Bioware did this in an attempt to drum up controversy to get free press, ala ME 1.

I think you're seeing more than there is to it, they just know from the boards that romances were a huge part of Dragon Age Origins' appeal and they're doing a bit of fanservice. The fact that people complain about an option that is available for others is quite selfish and immature to me.

I understand where you and city are coming from and I can appreciate your points and why you feel this way. That said, I don't agree. In my first post in this thread, I explained my reasoning. You can see the full thing (it's at the end of page 2 I think) but basically, it comes down to fact that the way it's setup kills the suspension of disbelief (at least for myself) and that ultimately, it weakens the characters and makes it impossible, or at least, far more difficult for the writers to make them relatable and believable.

Now, the above is purely subjective. I don't think we're going to convince each other any time soon, because we value different things in games. Neither is right or wrong, we can just state our positions and hope Bioware agrees with our points.

But yeah, when it comes to some sort of meta argument that people are upset because others have the choice to have a gay relationship, that is stupid and you won't find me arguing that. Same thing with we need to protect the children. If you as a parent don't want your kid to see that sort of content, don't censor the content, control your kid. But really, I don't think that the large majority of people who are against this feel that way. I think these options just feel very gamey and only serve to ruin the immersion and make the player realize exactly what they're doing, playing a game. Immersion and being able to suspend your disbelief is important and this serves to have the opposite effect.

I think the gay romances are just as well implemented as the straight ones : they're not "given", you need friendship/rivalry to start them, and they're coherent with the characters' personalities : for example Anders is an apostate mage not afraid to live in the open, leave his manifesto everywhere and resort to terrorism, for him to wait to be courted instead of hitting on Hawke would be off-character IMO. The fact that they change his backstory (> Karl) if you play male shows that they didn't want the option to sound cheap and actually made an effort.

Besides, when you think about it, a hottie like Isabela falling for your character isn't particularly realistic, yet it's there because that's part of the fun of games and fiction in general, and I can understand that gay people would feel a bit disappointed if they didn't get to romance their favorite companions as well, I'd certainly feel that way. And nothing is known of Fenris' sexuality until the player decides to come onto him themself, meaning the characters aren't all bisexual : Anders is either explicitly gay or explicitly heterosexual (according to the gender you picked), Fenris is supposedly asexual until you choose to romance him, I think the only canonically bisexual character is Isabela.

So the only instance of those orientations being off-character/suspension of disbelief being broken is in a parallel playthrough, meaning it's not relevant. What's the point of replaying at all if you want the same story ? Why have three classes and multiple choices ? Would you say that Bethany/Carver surviving is off-character because canonically they're supposed to die in the prologue ? The fact is those changes are not relevant because they happen in a parallel universe, and they actually matched the backstories (> Karl) with those changes in order to make them feel real. So I'm all for it.

I posted the following drawing in an older thread about the same thing because the posters weren't being as open to discussion as you seem, so don't take it as anything more than cheap humour, but I think it will illustrate the rest of my point more eloquently ^^...

Modifié par nijnij, 24 mars 2011 - 02:27 .

[Tirigon]

nijnij wrote...

Good point, lol.......