258 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Mykel54 wrote...
Well the thing is, if people are now complaining about each character being bisexual (i understand the point), then people would also complain if they could not romance, say, anders, with their male hawke.

The difference is that those that wanted everyone to be bi were of that mind that "I want what I want" while those of us unhappy with decision are either homophobes or of the mind "please just write believable characters." Or maybe both in some cases.

BlameBot wrote...
Zevran wasn't too picky on sexuality. Neither was Leliana.

And they were both written that way. No matter who your chracter is or what you say to those two characters nothing will change the fact the Leliana was once in love with a woman or that Zevran sleeps with people of variable race or gender indiscriminately.

[rubydog1]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

I find someone not crapping their pants and running out of the room the first time a dozen undead shoot up from the ground or a spider the size of a minivan drops from the roof because they've just met and are irrationally fearless hurts the believability of characters more than a NPC having the option of being gay.

[City6]

This seems like an insane issue to me. People are actually complaining that the game gives options to people of all genders and persuasions?

If you're a male straight gamer playing a male straight character, the fact that the women would sleep with you if you were female can't even become an issue: it doesn't happen in your game.

The only way to object to this narratively is if you use meta-knowledge of how the game is constructed from outside of the game. It's as loopy as complaining that which sibling dies depends on your class: this only "doesn't make sense" if you use knowledge from outside the game. Internally, in one playthrough, it's totally narratively consistent.


This is why people complaining about writing "believable characters" are frankly talking nonsense. The characters are entirely believable within a single playthrough. 

Modifié par City6, 23 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[BlameBot]

I didn't say I disagreed at all. It is sloppy to just call everyone bi and be done with it.

[Ryzaki]

rubydog1 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

I find someone not crapping their pants and running out of the room the first time a dozen undead shoot up from the ground or a spider the size of a minivan drops from the roof because they've just met and are irrationally fearless hurts the believability of characters more than a NPC having the option of being gay.

lmao

This was especially bad when no one reacts like "WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?" to the giant spider in the deeproads. 

[Demonhoopa]

Bathead wrote...

I really don't see why this is even a big deal at all. Seems like a non-issue to me.

That's because it is a non issue.
 
Complaining about being given MORE choices in an RPG? Well I must admit, that's new.

[the_one_54321]

rubydog1 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

I find someone not crapping their pants and running out of the room the first time a dozen undead shoot up from the ground or a spider the size of a minivan drops from the roof because they've just met and are irrationally fearless hurts the believability of characters more than a NPC having the option of being gay.

We're talking about a world where it's pretty well known that there are giant spiders in the forests and in caves, bandits, and darkspawn constantly attacking dwarven cities under ground. That's a clever comment you made, but less so when you put it in the proper context.

City6 wrote...
This seems like an insane issue to me. People
are actually complaining that the game gives options to people of all
genders and persuasions?

Not at all. If they had included a range of gay, bi, or straight characters it would have been a completely different story. Like Zevran or Leliana. Nothing you say and no way you happen to create your character changes their back story or what they choose to reveal about themselves.

[Ryzaki]

@the one: not quite bloodmages are quite feared in cutscenes and the like. No one bats an eyelid during normal combat.

No one even bats an eyelid when Hawke uses bloodmagic

Even when it's VASTLY out of character for some of them to do so (Fenris and Anders in particular).  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2011 - 07:27 .

[BeljoraDien]

highcastle wrote...

One thing that would cheapen the experience is the inclusion of a toggle. No. Just no. If you find sexuality offensive, then don't play this game. And don't watch any movies or TV shows that portray relationships outside your comfort zone. Don't read Orlando or Written on the Body. Those things will scare you. And no one is forcing you to do any of this stuff. But it's out there. It should be incorporated in any artform which claims to speak about the human experience. As DA2 is a personal game about one (wo)man's rise to power and relationships with those around them, all facets of their life should be explored. And as this is an RPG, it should be up to the player to determine how their life unfolds. If your Hawke is not queer in some manner (I dislike the term bisexual for reasons that could be their own rant), then don't flirt with characters of the same gender. But don't force heteronormativity on the rest of us.

Toggle! Toggle makes everything better for everyone. If they're smart they'll allow you to toggle midsentence.

Anders: "Hawke, we've been good friends for awhile... and it's difficult for me to say since I don't know how you're going to react... but I'm" *toggle* "having a few chicks over for a house party, so bring some brewskies, and I promise you we'll both end up taking home a" *toggle* "strong, dwarven construction worker." *toggle* "and we can drop them off at any one of these designated street corners when we're done."

[Demonhoopa]

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

It's not poor writing. It's providing different choices for different playthroughs. Unlike Mass Effect 2 which was HORRIBLE in the romance choice dept if playing as Femshep (especially if you're a straight male that prefers Jennifer Hale's voice acting).

I was very pleasantly surprised to find out Merril was available when I did my female hawke playthrough.

Also, no male has ever hit on my male Hawke char because I don't encourage it in the dialogue options. So in my game, the males are not gay/bisexual.

In short, I disagree with you completely.

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 23 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[the_one_54321]

BlameBot wrote...
It is sloppy to just call everyone bi and be done with it.

Pretty much spot on. It's not a problem at all that there are gay or bi characters. I have no trouble even with the idea that a gay character might make unwelcome advances at my character. That's actually happened to me in real life a bunch of times.

But when they said "lets just make everyong bisexual" it was lazy and an example of bad writing.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
@the one: not quite bloodmages are quite feared in cutscenes and the like. No one bats an eyelid during normal combat.

No one even bats an eyelid when Hawke uses bloodmagic

Even when it's VASTLY out of character for some of them to do so (Fenris and Anders in particular).  

That's also fairly stupid, and their only justification for it was "it's a game and you have to let that go to keep it fun." It's in one of the "interview threads."

[Zkyire]

So the problem some people seem to have, is not that Anders is bisexual, but that he was portrayed as nothing but heterosexual in Awakening, and then changed to bisexual simply to appease fans.

#1 I can understand that point, fair enough.

But..

#2) It doesn't matter. At all.

[Joe_8998]

Dark83 wrote...

The history of the entire world changes according to what we import too. Oh noes!

Besides of which, they're not heterosexual OR homosexual. They're Hawkesexual.

True enough, but the decisions we imported are variables we had control over. We simply wanted our decisions in the first game to matter.

The problem I have with the party member-dynamic-sexuality concept is that it precludes your party members from having set personalities and emotions. Granted, their sexual orientation and past trysts (in Anders case) don't hugely impact their story events or dialogue, but their sexual orientation does comprise a part of their personality and who they are. If that part of them is fluid and incomplete, then their entire character is fluid and incomplete, at least in my mind. 

If I played a gay character and wanted to romance Alistair for example, it wasn't going to happen. He has no interest, and I cannot change him. Alistair is Alistair, and in Origins I had to work with and around his personality. It was part of the fun of the party dynamic,a nd was realistic. In real life, you will find people you have no chance with.

In Dragon Age II, that doesn't happen. It doesn't matter who you are, you will always be their type! Anders and Merrill and Fenris can essentially be whoever or whatever you want them to be, from a romance standpoint. It really weakens their characters and cheapens the romances. I don't see that it has a place in a game that strives to be an RPG. For example, lets say I play through the game as a male Hawke. I then decide to play through again as a female Hawke. I am now playing in an 'alternate universe' where my party member's sexualities have been inverted. 

It also makes it so that the romance experience is exactly the same no matter how you go through the game, which actually takes the fun out of playing through as different genders. When I played through Mass Effect, I played as a Male Shepard, and I took Kaidan with me everywhere. I really liked his character.

It was also really cool to watch my girlfriend play through as a female Shepard and begin a romance with him. Totally new perspective on his personality, as I got to see dialogue and scenes with him i had never watched before. 

In Dragon Age II, that can't happen. The gameplay experience is now identical, whether you are male or female, because your companions sexuality chanegs in tune with you.To me, that hurts replay value, cheapens the characters, and isn't really realistic.

From the responses I have read so far however, I guess it isn't as a big an issue to others as it is to me. I don't mean to mindlessly bash the game or to nitpick, it was just something I found that I thought hurt the gaming experience for me.

[Iamnotahater]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
@the one: not quite bloodmages are quite feared in cutscenes and the like. No one bats an eyelid during normal combat.

No one even bats an eyelid when Hawke uses bloodmagic

Even when it's VASTLY out of character for some of them to do so (Fenris and Anders in particular).  

That's also fairly stupid, and their only justification for it was "it's a game and you have to let that go to keep it fun." It's in one of the "interview threads."

I thought it was worse when I was walking around with a mage staff on my back and the templars were just standing around not realizing I was an apostate.

Modifié par Iamnotahater, 23 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

rubydog1 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

I find someone not crapping their pants and running out of the room the first time a dozen undead shoot up from the ground or a spider the size of a minivan drops from the roof because they've just met and are irrationally fearless hurts the believability of characters more than a NPC having the option of being gay.

We're talking about a world where it's pretty well known that there are giant spiders in the forests and in caves, bandits, and darkspawn constantly attacking dwarven cities under ground. That's a clever comment you made, but less so when you put it in the proper context.

City6 wrote...
This seems like an insane issue to me. People
are actually complaining that the game gives options to people of all
genders and persuasions?

Not at all. If they had included a range of gay, bi, or straight characters it would have been a completely different story. Like Zevran or Leliana. Nothing you say and no way you happen to create your character changes their back story or what they choose to reveal about themselves.

Isabella having a lesbian fling in someone else's game has absolutly zero impact on your game, where she does not.

But the end result is both players have had an enjoyable experience. How is this a bad thing? If you didn't have outside knowledge of the game and played a male, you'd have no idea about even the possibility of a lesban fling.

You're acting as if all possible actions in a branching narrative all occur within your own narrative. They don't.

It's like saying "But Alistair became king, but also he could not become king! That makes no sense! He can't do both!".

He doesn't, in the same playthrough,

[BlameBot]

Demonhoopa wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

It's not about sexual preference, it's about writing. People are not variables, and writing should always strive to make characters into believable people.

It's not poor writing. It's providing different choices for different playthroughs. Unlike Mass Effect 2 which was HORRIBLE in the romance choice dept if playing as Femshep (especially if you're a straight male that prefers Jennifer Hale's voice acting).

I was very pleasantly surprised to find out Merril was available when I did my female hawke playthrough.

Also, no male has ever hit on my male Hawke char because I don't encourage it in the dialogue options. So in my game, the males are not gay/bisexual.

In short, I disagree with you completely.

Oh, god. Yes. Male Sheperd Voice Actor, whoever he may be, made me cringe.  I really tried to endure it, but it was. Just. So. Bad.

[the_one_54321]

Demonhoopa wrote...
It's not poor writing. It's providing different choices for different playthroughs.

Providing choices is writing characters that are intended to be bi/gay/straight and stick that preference throughout the game. This is the difference between Leliana and Zevran, and Merril Anders and Fenris. Merril Anders and Fenris switch teams based one whichever team you play for. Leliana and Zevran were written specifically as bisexuals.

If they included more characters like Zevran or Leliana that are specifically written as bisexuals that would be great. More options and all that happy go lucky stuff. Characters that are variables instead of people just make the writing much harder to appreciate.

[Joe_8998]

 

Dark83 wrote...

The history of the entire world changes according to what we import too. Oh noes!

Besides of which, they're not heterosexual OR homosexual. They're Hawkesexual. 

True enough, but the decisions we imported are variables we had control over. We simply wanted our decisions in the first game to matter.

The problem I have with the party member-dynamic-sexuality concept is that it precludes your party members from having set personalities and emotions. Granted, their sexual orientation and past trysts (in Anders case) don't hugely impact their story events or dialogue, but their sexual orientation does comprise a part of their personality and who they are. If that part of them is fluid and incomplete, then their entire character is fluid and incomplete, at least in my mind. 

If I played a gay character and wanted to romance Alistair for example, it wasn't going to happen. He has no interest, and I cannot change him. Alistair is Alistair, and in Origins I had to work with and around his personality. It was part of the fun of the party dynamic,a nd was realistic. In real life, you will find people you have no chance with.

In Dragon Age II, that doesn't happen. It doesn't matter who you are, you will always be their type! Anders and Merrill and Fenris can essentially be whoever or whatever you want them to be, from a romance standpoint. It really weakens their characters and cheapens the romances. I don't see that it has a place in a game that strives to be an RPG. For example, lets say I play through the game as a male Hawke. I then decide to play through again as a female Hawke. I am now playing in an 'alternate universe' where my party member's sexualities have been inverted. 

It also makes it so that the romance experience is exactly the same no matter how you go through the game, which actually takes the fun out of playing through as different genders. When I played through Mass Effect, I played as a Male Shepard, and I took Kaidan with me everywhere. I really liked his character.

It was also really cool to watch my girlfriend play through as a female Shepard and begin a romance with him. Totally new perspective on his personality, as I got to see dialogue and scenes with him i had never watched before. 

In Dragon Age II, that can't happen. The gameplay experience is now identical, whether you are male or female, because your companions sexuality chanegs in tune with you.To me, that hurts replay value, cheapens the characters, and isn't really realistic.

From the responses I have read so far however, I guess it isn't as a big an issue to others as it is to me. I don't mean to mindlessly bash the game or to nitpick, it was just something I found that I thought hurt the gaming experience for me.

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...
Isabella having a lesbian fling in someone else's game has absolutly zero impact on your game, where she does not.

I am not in the game. I am a real person, playing the game. My metagame experience counts for my enjoyment and my willing suspension of disbelief. I know that Isabela was always intended to be a permiscuous and gender variable lover. That impacts how I view the character.

[highcastle]

BeljoraDien wrote...

highcastle wrote...

One thing that would cheapen the experience is the inclusion of a toggle. No. Just no. If you find sexuality offensive, then don't play this game. And don't watch any movies or TV shows that portray relationships outside your comfort zone. Don't read Orlando or Written on the Body. Those things will scare you. And no one is forcing you to do any of this stuff. But it's out there. It should be incorporated in any artform which claims to speak about the human experience. As DA2 is a personal game about one (wo)man's rise to power and relationships with those around them, all facets of their life should be explored. And as this is an RPG, it should be up to the player to determine how their life unfolds. If your Hawke is not queer in some manner (I dislike the term bisexual for reasons that could be their own rant), then don't flirt with characters of the same gender. But don't force heteronormativity on the rest of us.

Toggle! Toggle makes everything better for everyone. If they're smart they'll allow you to toggle midsentence.

Anders: "Hawke, we've been good friends for awhile... and it's difficult for me to say since I don't know how you're going to react... but I'm" *toggle* "having a few chicks over for a house party, so bring some brewskies, and I promise you we'll both end up taking home a" *toggle* "strong, dwarven construction worker." *toggle* "and we can drop them off at any one of these designated street corners when we're done."

A toggle is fine for superficial gameplay elements. Do helmets show up? Sould there be circles beneath everyone's feet? It's not kosher when it comes to characterization. If everyone's sexuality can be dictated by the player, that is pandering. It's also somewhat insulting. If the character is concieved as queer in some manner, let them be queer.

And people keep saying bisexuality or queerness is unrealistic. To which I again must reply, read Kinsey. Read Winterson. Read Woolfe. Not everyone excepts the binary definitions of gay and straight. Not everyone thinks love must be mutially exclusive. I was really impressed by Anders saying this almost exactly to male Hawke. It's an interesting school of thought on gender issues (it also happens to go hand-in-hand with my own beliefs, which may be why I'm championing it somewhat).

[mesmerizedish]

Joe_8998 wrote...

Anyway, it really seems like a copout to make all the companions bisexual. Maybe they wanted to make it so that anyone could romance any party member, and not have to worry about gender or starting a new playthrough to experience it.

That's exactly why they did it.

But it just seems so... unlikely. All of the varied and interesting people I picked up on my adventure swing both ways? Does the population of Thedas have a much greater percentage of bisexual citizens than our world?

What's so likely about bringing together a Dailsh outcast, a city guardswoman, a pirate queen, a super-magical ex-slave, an arcane revolutionary, and Varric? Once all those parties are contrivedly thrust together, I think they can have whatever preference they want

Apparently though, your characters are either gay or straight depending upon what gender your Hawke is. So I guess bisexual is technically the wrong term, as the people in your party are in different "universes" depending on whether Hawke is male or female. Somebody had mentioned that things like Anders' prior relationship with Karl changes dependent upon your gender. If you are male, he was a former lover. If you are female, he was just a friend.

That's entirely false. You can view it that way, but the truth of the matter is that the devs just didn't establish any sexual identities for a few of the characters. Anders's relationship with Karl is the same, regardless of your gender. He just only talks about it with dudeHawke, because it's only relevant with dudeHawke. Fenris and Merrill don't talk about their sexual pasts. Do their preferences change based on character gender? Well, you could believe that, and there's no evidence to suggest that you're wrong. But the bottom line is that they just don't talk about it.

I find that to be so stupid. Somebody in the last topic topic mentioned that characters should be written as characters, not variables, and I completely agree. Anders appeared to be quite the ladies' man in Awakening. I think he even hits on Mhairi when you first encounter him at the Keep. What the hell happened?

No one's saying he's not into the ladies, though expressing interest doesn't mean expressing a preference. As much as I gush about how handsome Mr. Laidlaw is, I still wouldn't want to have sex with him.

So the personality, sexual orientation, and even history of your party changes dynamically depending upon whether or not you play as a male or female? Really? Come on. So your party members are just fluid, ever-changing set pieces, and not truly well-defined characters in themselves?

As I've said, that's not necessarily how it works. But, if it were, so what? This is one characteristic that there is absolutely no indication of in-game. It changes absolutely none of the information presented about the character, because sexual orientation has already been established as not important to the character as we know them.

I find that really disappointing.

If, after understanding how the actual situation is different from how you understand it, you're still disappointed, then I'm sorry?

[EDIT] And, people, please don't turn this into a topic about how "seeing gay people makes me uncomfortable." That's not what this thread is about, and I'm saying on behalf of the homosexual community that that's offensive and stupid.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 23 mars 2011 - 07:39 .

[the_one_54321]

Look, this isn't about options.

Create tons of options. Create an individual option for every single person that plays this game if you want to. Create 1 million options. The more the merrier.

But do a good job of creating them. What they did here was a bad job.

When you play this game, the characters should feel like someone else is playing them. They should not feel like they mold themselves based on whatever you want them to be. The first is good writing, the second is bad writing.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 23 mars 2011 - 07:40 .

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
@the one: not quite bloodmages are quite feared in cutscenes and the like. No one bats an eyelid during normal combat.

No one even bats an eyelid when Hawke uses bloodmagic

Even when it's VASTLY out of character for some of them to do so (Fenris and Anders in particular).  

That's also fairly stupid, and their only justification for it was "it's a game and you have to let that go to keep it fun." It's in one of the "interview threads."

Ah. 

It is a game though. Still I wanted my blodmagic to be acknowledged. 

[mesmerizedish]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Look, this isn't about options.

Create tons of options. Create an individual option for every single person that plays this game if you want to. Create 1 million options. The more the merrier.

But do a good job of creating them. What they did here was a bad job.

I don't think that they did a bad job. I do think it could have been better. I think the issue of whether or not the characters are bi has absolutely nothing to do with how good a job they did.