258 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Lulia wrote..
I find bi-sexual characters much more unrealistic and that is what offends me.

...I'm pretty sure some people find that line pretty offensive in of itself. 

I find the fact that people from various walks of life can all fall in love with the same exact Hawke just because he/she passes a gender flag. That to me is silly. 

Morrigan falling in love with a cold pragmatic and a white knight male PC always struck me as ridculous and unlikely. However I never let it impact my enjoyment of the game. 

Likewise with Alistair falling in love with a cold pragamtic female and a person who does everything he agrees with. 

Zevran falling in love with a human supremist, Leliana falling in love with a complete bastard. 

That to me was far more unrealistic and offensive. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[17thknight]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lulia wrote...
what are male gay people called?

I've only ever heard them called gay. I'm not sure why there's a whole other word for gay women.

Blame Sappho, the woman poet and teacher, and her students on the Isle of Lesbos. Or rather, their legacy and the thihngs written about them.

classical Greek and Mediterranean culture are pervasive throughout our language.

For instance, the Greek word Polis (which means city) is what gave us the words Police, Politics, Politician, Policy, Polite, Polity, and many other words.
And the time in Athenian history when they had no Archons (city leaders) and the city degenarted into a state of complete chaos, death, and ultimately led to a tyranny is what gave us the word "Anarchy" which means "A time without Archons".

Modifié par 17thknight, 23 mars 2011 - 09:08 .

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

optimates0193 wrote...

17thknight wrote...
I find that Bioware's recent trend of having no gay characters in their game, whatsoever, to be a bit off-putting. Rather than having the guts to simply have gay characters, they simply make anyone **** anyone. It's...unrealistic and a bit offensive.

This. Really, Bioware's approach to gay relationships seems extremely weak to me and I'm surprised more don't find it offensive. I would love to see a truly homosexual character, who has to struggle with what that entails. That would make for a compelling addition to the story AND help broaden a person's perspective in a meaningful way. Right now, what we have are superficial, meaningless, and in my opinion, nonsensical relationships with character's that have no identity of their own.

Like these two, I don't understand why anyone see's "make all LIs bi" as a good thing, instead of a short cut. Why wouldn't you prefer that they write more characters that fill more roles?

You have to be a pragmatist about this. Either you have a long and complex gay relationship (which also has the option of a straight itteration) or you have nothing at all. There simply isn't the resources to craft very long dialogues that only a smaller percentage of the gaming base will play. Often a gay character will just not be used *at all* by a chunk of the foaming mouthed gaming community.

Given what happened to Zevran on the Brazillian gaming boards (a meme for gay bashing and a competion for how many seconds after his appearence you have killed him) and what is happening to Anders, frankly I think a large chuck of the gaming community simply isn't ready for gay-only characters as companions. And those are the people who pay the bills, and have to have the most zots allocated to them in development.

If you want solid, well written gay content, then I think the compromise Boware has reached is the best possible option.

[mesmerizedish]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lulia wrote...
what are male gay people called?

I've only ever heard them called gay. I'm not sure why there's a whole other word for gay women.

Because. I imagine this in my head: I'm seducing a strange but beautiful young girl. She confronts me, tells me she knows what I am. "Say it," I order her. "Say it out loud." In a hushed tone, barely a whisper, fear dripping from her lips like the nectar of a succulent peach, she speaks.

"Lesbian."

Sexy as ****, that is.

[17thknight]

City6 wrote...


You have to be a pragmatist about this. Either you have a long and complex gay relationship (which also has the option of a straight itteration) or you have nothing at all. There simply isn't the resources to craft very long dialogues that only a smaller percentage of the gaming base will play.

Uhhhhhhhh......yes there is, they did it with Juhani in KotOR.

[Ryzaki]

17thknight wrote...

City6 wrote...


You have to be a pragmatist about this. Either you have a long and complex gay relationship (which also has the option of a straight itteration) or you have nothing at all. There simply isn't the resources to craft very long dialogues that only a smaller percentage of the gaming base will play.

Uhhhhhhhh......yes there is, they did it with Juhani in KotOR.

You're joking right? Juhani's "romance" was nothing compared to Carth's and Bastila's. I'm happy the devs put it in but it was nowhere near as fleshed out or plot interwoven as Carth's and Bastila's. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[17thknight]

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL

Your joking right? Juhani's "romance" was nothing compared to Carth's and Bastila's. 

I know, and if you would read my previous posts, in which I addressed why the sudden lack of gay characters is offensive and off-putting, I addressed that. Bioware's current trend is laziness (at best) and offensive. They have no gay characters in the DA series, and that's bad writing.

[City6]

17thknight wrote...

City6 wrote...


You have to be a pragmatist about this. Either you have a long and complex gay relationship (which also has the option of a straight itteration) or you have nothing at all. There simply isn't the resources to craft very long dialogues that only a smaller percentage of the gaming base will play.

Uhhhhhhhh......yes there is, they did it with Juhani in KotOR.

It's about 5 lines that probably took 2 hours to write. Nothing compared to Zevran, or Anders, or the Alistair bromance.


And a pretty lesbian is a bonus for the 14-18 male demographic. Not so much the gay male character.

Modifié par City6, 23 mars 2011 - 09:17 .

[MorningBird]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Because. I imagine this in my head: I'm seducing a strange but beautiful young girl. She confronts me, tells me she knows what I am. "Say it," I order her. "Say it out loud." In a hushed tone, barely a whisper, fear dripping from her lips like the nectar of a succulent peach, she speaks.

"Lesbian."

Sexy as ****, that is.

OH, YOU. <3

[mesmerizedish]

MorningBird wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Because. I imagine this in my head: I'm seducing a strange but beautiful young girl. She confronts me, tells me she knows what I am. "Say it," I order her. "Say it out loud." In a hushed tone, barely a whisper, fear dripping from her lips like the nectar of a succulent peach, she speaks.

"Lesbian."

Sexy as ****, that is.

OH, YOU. <3

GUESS WHO MY STRANGE BUT BEAUTIFUL YOUNG GIRL IS?!?!?!

Oh, you don't have to guess, it's you

[17thknight]

City6 wrote...

It's about 5 lines that probably took 2 hours to write. Nothing compared to Zevran, or Anders, or the Alistair bromance.

Yeah, but at the time it was highly praised, especially on the Bioware forums, because they had the guts to include an actually gay character. And they did it in a very subdued, toned-down way, that wasn't hypersexual or Lipstick Lesbian. It was well written, for as short and cut as it was.

Now we've got "Ehhhhh, well, let's just let everyone bang everyone, whatever".

[Edge2177]

All of the companions are not in fact, bisexual. They are in reality either straight, bi, or gay.

Anders for example, if you are a girl, then he is straight, and only straight.

The story changes to suite you, the player. It is your decision to make them 'go' gay. Except in the case of Isabela, who is a ****.

[Ryzaki]

17thknight wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOL

Your joking right? Juhani's "romance" was nothing compared to Carth's and Bastila's. 

I know, and if you would read my previous posts, in which I addressed why the sudden lack of gay characters is offensive and off-putting, I addressed that. Bioware's current trend is laziness (at best) and offensive. They have no gay characters in the DA series, and that's bad writing.

I fail to see how giving yourself more work is laziness. That said I don't agree with it being "bad" writing not to have gay characters. There are plenty of works without gay characters in them are they lazy and bad writing as well? As for offensive that varies. 

That said a completely gay character isn't seen as finaically viable. Maybe this will change (I hope it will soon) but for now the chances for a completely gay LI (if you want one with the same amount of depth of the straight options) is slim. Personally I would take the "lazy" option with as much development and content over a 5 line stick near endgame that comes out of left field. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2011 - 09:19 .

[mesmerizedish]

Edge2177 wrote...

All of the companions are not in fact, bisexual. They are in reality either straight, bi, or gay.

Anders for example, if you are a girl, then he is straight, and only straight.

The story changes to suite you, the player. It is your decision to make them 'go' gay. Except in the case of Isabela, who is a ****.

That's not true. That's one way to look at it, but there's no evidence to support it, and the devs have said on many occasions that the fact that Anders doesn't talk about enjoying the company of men with a Lady Hawke doesn't make him straight.

[City6]

17thknight wrote...

City6 wrote...

It's about 5 lines that probably took 2 hours to write. Nothing compared to Zevran, or Anders, or the Alistair bromance.

Yeah, but at the time it was highly praised, especially on the Bioware forums, because they had the guts to include an actually gay character. And they did it in a very subdued, toned-down way, that wasn't hypersexual or Lipstick Lesbian. It was well written, for as short and cut as it was.

Now we've got "Ehhhhh, well, let's just let everyone bang everyone, whatever".

I don't disagree, but do you really think the gaming community at large would take to a gay male character so well?

[17thknight]

Ryzaki wrote...

I fail to see how giving yourself more work is laziness. That said I don't agree with it being "bad" writing not to have gay chaacters. There are plenty of works without gay characters in them are they lazy and bad writing as well? As for offensive that varies. 

That said a completely gay character isn't seen as finaically viable. Maybe this will change (I hope it will soon) but for now the chances for a completely gay LI (if you want one with the same amount of depth of the straight options) is slim. 

It's bad writing in that they want to include a gay romance option, but they don't want to write a gay character. That's lazy. Either make a gay character, or don't, but don't just have the "I'll **** you no matter who are" nonsense in every game. That's offensive.

It's like throwing a bone to the gay community "Well, here, you can romance this person or whatever." But, they want a gay character. A person who is written as such. Not just a "you can bang anyone you want!" option.

City6 wrote...

I don't disagree, but do you really think the gaming community at large would take to a gay male character so well?

Same thing was said about Juhani.  If the "gaming community" is THAT immature, then Bioware can help them grow up. (which, come to think of it, they are that immature)

Modifié par 17thknight, 23 mars 2011 - 09:21 .

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...
You have to be a pragmatist about this.

I don't think so. Not in this case. It's worse to do it weakly than to not do it at all.
Want more options in characters? Write more characters or live without the options.

[Ryzaki]

17thknight wrote...

It's bad writing in that they want to include a gay romance option, but they don't want to write a gay character. That's lazy. That's bad writing. Either make a gay character, or don't, but don't just have the "I'll **** you no matter who are" nonsense in every game. That's offensive.

It's like throwing a bone to the gay community "Well, here, you can romance this person or whatever." They want a gay character. A person who is written as such. Not just a "you can bang anyone you want!" option.

As for the "I'll **** you no matter who you are." I'm not seeing it. Then again maybe I'm just a sap and see the romances as just that. Romances. They aren't written to be quick tumbles with the PC (well except Izzy...who's...well Izzy and even she evolves into a romance from a quick tumble.) 

And frankly BW doesn't include the "I'll **** you no matter who you are" in Mass Effect. They get slammed for not including it. Frankly they can't win. 

It's bad form to speak for a community when enforcing your opinion. Just sayin'. You may feel that way doesn't mean others do. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 23 mars 2011 - 09:24 .

[mesmerizedish]

17thknight wrote...

It's bad writing in that they want to include a gay romance option, but they don't want to write a gay character. That's lazy. Either make a gay character, or don't, but don't just have the "I'll **** you no matter who are" nonsense in every game. That's offensive.

It's like throwing a bone to the gay community "Well, here, you can romance this person or whatever." But, they want a gay character. A person who is written as such. Not just a "you can bang anyone you want!" option.

I disagree. I think it's a good thing to open up all options to all playstyles. I almost exclusively play female characters. I don't want to romance the actual lesbian, I want to romance Merrill. Sucks to be me. It gets into a "seperate but equal" bull**** that's too expensive to do and doesn't actually solve the issue. I don't want as many options as straight players, I want the same options.

[silentassassin264]

I approve of how it was done. I only play as female characters and like the user above me posted, I liked Merrill. I don't want to play as a guy just to romance Merrill because the rest of the game would be rather disconnected. Making everyone Hawkesexual solves the problem and I approve.

[the_one_54321]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
I disagree. I think it's a good thing to open up all options to all playstyles. I almost exclusively play female characters. I don't want to romance the actual lesbian, I want to romance Merrill. Sucks to be me. It gets into a "seperate but equal" bull**** that's too expensive to do and doesn't actually solve the issue. I don't want as many options as straight players, I want the same options.

If I were to have a crush on a lesbian, she wouldn't change her sexuality for me. If Merril was supposed to be a straight woman, that sucks for the lesbians that like her. If Merril was supposed to be a lesbian, that sucks for the straight guys that like her. If she was supposed to be bi, I guess that works out.

Everyone was meant to be bi? Sorry, not buying it. Not for a second.

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
You have to be a pragmatist about this.

I don't think so. Not in this case. It's worse to do it weakly than to not do it at all.
Want more options in characters? Write more characters or live without the options.

"Living without the options" is what people who want to play gay characters have done for 30 years.

From these boards (and the longest threads in Bioware history) it seems that the vast majority of people who want to play a gay protagonist are delighted.

It's easy to say "live without the option" when it's not *you* who will be living without the option, but other people. How about 4 gay characters, and no stright romances? Would that be fine by you?

[mesmerizedish]

the_one_54321 wrote...

If I were to have a crush on a lesbian, she wouldn't change her sexuality for me. If Merril was supposed to be a straight woman, that sucks for the lesbians that like her. If Merril was supposed to be a lesbian, that sucks for the straight guys that like her. If she was supposed to be bi, I guess that works out.

But it's a game. You don't have to crap on people like that. If there are more characters who are specifically straight or gay, then someone's going to complain about the straights got more interesting characters, or how the gays got hotter characters. The best option is to give everyone the same romances.

Everyone was meant to be bi? Sorry, not buying it. Not for a second.

It's not for sale. It's lying there for you to take or leave, at your leisure.

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...
"Living without the options" is what people who want to play gay characters have done for 30 years.

It's easy to say "live without the option" when it's not *you* who will be living without the option, but other people.

So they should write gay characters.

And, though I was being satirical earlier, in fact I really am the one living without the options now. There are no straight characters.

[graciegrace]

to be honest, the only companion that it doesn't make sense with is Anders based on Awakening. But Anders in general is so very obviously not the same character to begin with. Honestly, I feel ike the wrote another character and then decided that he'd be Anders even though ti makes no logical sense...

Isabella is very obvioulsy pansexual, she'll sleep with anything that moves. That was obvious in DAO.

Merrill and Fenris could swing either way logically, both of them don't really have anything that defines them sexually.