15 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvianus]

Here are the views of my heroes:

Taken to the extreme, in turmoil for him, he must obliterate the whole circle of Kirkwall, the most dangerous of Thedas, most corrupt, most undermined its foundations, infiltrated, overwhelmed from all sides. by traitors, Blood Mage, conspirators everywhere. Orsino has no more control over its magi, its apprentices, gold is the first role of a first enchanting. Let them live, is to expose Kirkwall to the folly, thank you for the traitors, acts as ruthless as those of Anders.

Orsino itself is compromised, it is learned at the end. He hid the blood mage who killed our mother. Orsino was allowed him to experiment dangerous.  Almost all mages of Kirkwall I tried to save, have become abominations or have succumbed to the blood magic  was allowed to experiment dangerous. I saved the lieutenant of Decimus, the mage apostate woman who seemed to avoid the Templars, and how she thanked me ? By becoming a blood mage also three years later .... and removing my sister ...Kirkwall is a cursed place.

I'm not saying that mages have no reason to fight, or they are wrong, however, but this is war, there can be only one winner in Kirkwall, one exit . Destroy chantry is as an act of war against the Templars, but not only, against all nations that believers, can not be satisfied with the life of Anders. It is a necessity, not desire. Too much extremism, misunderstanding, fear, to show leniency. The fruit has become too rotten to get back to dream about an overall improvement in Kirkwall.

The difference with Ferelden is size. The circle was locked behind closed doors, it does not touch the rest of the country. The situation under control, a chance to save from obliteration. In Kirkwall, the opposite is true, the whole city is prey to extremism, can not control the situation, situation uncontrollable radical solutions. )

There is no good choice and no choice is better than another, it just needs must choose his camp. I chose my camps, to defend my people. Kirkwall is a nest of dangers. a nest of pitfalls, where Anders and his minions have forged their canvas. Erradicate the circle seems to me the best way to protect the population and the city, although it's sad. Even if you save a circle, there would always be a whole bunch of new converts, it would not change nothing, as shown by the example with Grace and Orsino.

Anders was my friend but he betrayed me. I believed in him, but it is a terrorist. He murdered innocent people just for the symbol, Instead  blame rather forces of the Templars; Justice has changed him, it is no longer Anders. I killed him to do justice to the high priestess and innocents, who believed in peace and compromise.

Anders got what he wanted, making impossible any possibility of compromise. I am sad to have killed the magi, but happy to have also killed Meredith, this crazy who helped make the situation impossible.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 23 mars 2011 - 09:31 .

[LobselVith8]

Sylvianus wrote...

I'm not saying that mages have no reason to fight, or they are wrong, however, but this is war, there can be only one winner in Kirkwall, one exit . Destroy chantry is as an act of war against the Templars, but not only, against all nations that believers, can not be satisfied with the life of Anders. It is a necessity, not desire. Too much extremism, misunderstanding, fear, to show leniency. The fruit has become too rotten to get back to dream about an overall improvement in Kirkwall.

My Hawke took the opposite approach; he sided with his fellow mages against the templars. The Chantry turned down the Magi boon, and now Hawke had a chance to inspire the mages of all the Circles to make it a reality for every mage in Thedas.

Sylvianus wrote...

Anders was my friend but he betrayed me. I believed in him, but it is a terrorist. He murdered innocent people just for the symbol, Instead  blame rather forces of the Templars; Justice has changed him, it is no longer Anders. I killed him to do justice to the high priestess and innocents, who believed in peace and compromise.

My Hawke also took a different approach to Anders. He saw him as someone who wanted to see their people free from servitude. He kept Anders alive and at his side, despite the fact that it cost him Sebastian. Along with Merrill and everyone else, they protected the innocent men, women, and children of the Circle from their enemies.

Sylvianus wrote...

Anders got what he wanted, making impossible any possibility of compromise. I am sad to have killed the magi, but happy to have also killed Meredith, this crazy who helped make the situation impossible.

Since my Hawke saw it as a decision between subjugation and freedom, he didn't think compromise should have ever been on the table. It's interesting how the storyline provoked different reactions for many people.

[Ox_Mox]

My Hawke was pretty neutral about the whole mage vs. templar issue but Meredith pushed me to the mages with the whole "Kill every mage in the city" plan because one of them was a terrorist. It struck me as the equivalent of Japanese internment camps in the US during WWII except with more murder.

[Foolsfolly]

What was the point of view of your hero ? With the Templars or the Magi in the end ?

**** 'em. Kill them all and let the Maker sort them out.

[dgcatanisiri]

My Hawke from my first playthrough is an apostate. He's aware of the good that the Chantry can do, but believes that its views have been perhaps hopelessly twisted from their original intentions. How does 'magic must serve man, not rule him' equal 'anyone who can use magic must be locked away and prevented from having a life'? To him, it is wrong to lock up a group of people for no other reason than because of the circumstance of their birth, throwing them in a prison for a crime that they have not yet committed and may never commit.

He holds this view even as he journeys to Kirkwall. There, he sees the utter horror that is the templars who have torn off the leash of the Chantry that is supposed to keep them in check. Even though he sees how many of the mages turn to blood magic, he sees it as the actions of a cornered animal - many of the mages he meets feel they're going to die either way because there is no mercy available under Meredith's rule, at least if they become an abomination or use blood magic, they can take some of the templars with them. Not that he agrees with such a thought, but he accepts that these mages see it as their only option. Being made tranquil is a fate worse than death, and he wouldn't wish it on his worst enemy. He would die before letting himself be made tranquil, much like these mages.

After becoming the Champion and as the conflict heats up, he tries to use his influence to moderate things, keep them from breaking out into conflict in the streets. He works with the Grand Cleric, but, because she doesn't attempt to reign in Meredith, remind the templars that they are the hand of the Chantry, not independent agents or mercenaries who get to make the laws, he sees that nothing is changing and it may be getting worse. It gets to a point where he begins to consider that Elthina is too busy trying to prevent the conflict from breaking out that she's actually hindering the peace process.

And then Anders destroys the Chantry. Hawke is in love with Anders. Despite his opinion of Elthina and the Chantry, he didn't want THAT. Yet despite that, he couldn't bring himself to kill Anders. He thought that Sebastian was being unreasonable in calling for his head, demanding that Hawke kill the man he has loved for years. He tells Anders to run, but can't deny that he still loves Anders - this was the action of Vengeance, and it may have been ripping off the bandage, and caused circumstances to finally be paid attention to and be changed. He didn't expect the open war that followed. Besides, Anders at that point fully expected to die. That could have turned him into a martyr and caused the same war, just with Anders as its fallen hero. The legend would overwrite the truth. With Anders alive, it means that the truth will have a better chance of getting out.

Hawke sides with the mages, of course. Yes, the Chantry was destroyed by a mage, and yes, there would be a call for heads, but the Rite of Annulment, the execution of all Circle mages, is far from an appropriate response when it was an apostate who did it to begin with. Even with Orsino's later actions, he sees himself fighting for the right cause - he is attempting to protect innocents from Meredith's wrath. Those mages did nothing, and Meredith wanted them all executed. That's far from justice, and an evil that must be opposed.

That's how my Hawke wound up thinking. Frankly, I'm unsure I'll ever side with the templars, just because of the extreme of Meredith's reaction.

[TeamRyan]

I personally agreed with the chantry's/templar's ideals about keeping Thedas safe from mages and mages safe from thedas and themselves, and generally sided with the Templar's because everyone is a blood mage, but could not in my right mind go through with the final order to annul the tower.

Ideally in the end I could have fought the Templars until Meredith died and then shooed the mages back into their cages, but I guess that wasn't going to be an option. I would really like to know what my Hawke did immediately after the fight. I know if Hawke sides with the templars Hawke becomes viscount for a time, but what does he do if he sides with the mages.

[Talladarr]

He has to run

[Sylvianus]

It's interesting how the storyline provoked different reactions for many people.

Lol, it's true. I enjoyed reading the different views of your heroes.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[Suron]

My first play? My Hawke wasn't really sided with either because Anders little stunt. But he did help the Templars because at that point the mages have gone too far and Anders just MURDERED innocents.

Overall though he does feel the mages should be free and policed by themselves AND the Templars simultaneously....not locked up in circles and towers because of what they MAY do. Conflict is probably the only way this could ever be..but what Anders did was a complete betrayal, murder, and went too far.

[sylvanaerie]

My Hawke feels Circles are necessary, not just to protect the populace from people like Anders, Grace, Denarius, Quinton but to protect the mages from the population. I know Meredith was just itching for the Rite anyway but she actually seems to regret feeling it's necessary on a templar run and even points out her reasoning that the population won't want to hear that they found and killed the ONE mage responsible for the chantry blow up and my Hawke took the "the populace won't want to hear one mage was killed, they are gonna want to kill ALL the mages and if I can save a few..."L stance. On my last run (a male Hawke, mage) I chose to side with the templars (mostly for the achievements, not really a RP reason but *shrug*) anyway, the game makes SO much more sense than I expected. I chose the option of saying Hawke was doing it to save lives (both innocent templars, not all of them are **** heads like Karras and Alrik) and innocent mages who might just want to be left alone (and you do get an option to spare some of the ones who didn't want to fight).
The Orsino fight makes so much more sense on that side of the game, with him going all harvesty in the face of Meredith and random templars 1 and 2 along with Hawke and his companions. Instead of 'we are gonna lose so let me turn into this big ass blood magic thing and kill all of you so I can face Meredith alone, even if you helped me survive the initial wave".
And the ending was epic...

[Sylvianus]

I am willing to help mages in Thedas, but the circle of Kirkwall is cursed, all mages are corrupt.

[Revik]

I played through as a two-handed warrior.  

At first I was sympathetic to the mages plight.  Believing that their feelings of oppression and want for freedom were genuine.  Indeed I am sure there are many cases of this being true but time after time through my experiences in kirkwall mages for the most part were the cause of immense suffering.  Death of your mother at the hands of a blood mage.  Fenris' experience with his old master.  Mages that were freed only to backstab you.  And then of course there was the incident of Anders and the Chantry.

I have noted people cite that the rite of annulment will result in the killing of innocent mages.  Has anyone ever thought that if you go against Meredith that you'd be killing many innocent templars?  Men with familes.  IMO just as equally as tragic which cannot be a deciding factor. 

In the end I decided to side with the Templars despite my previous attempts of mage favortism because I just don't believe mages can be trusted to be responsible with their immense amount of power.  Each mage is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off which in Ander's case almost literally.  The rite of Annullment over the top and extreme? Sure.  Lesser of two evils?  Abso-******-lutely.

[Vukodlak]

Revik wrote...

I played through as a two-handed warrior.  

At first I was sympathetic to the mages plight.  Believing that their feelings of oppression and want for freedom were genuine.  Indeed I am sure there are many cases of this being true but time after time through my experiences in kirkwall mages for the most part were the cause of immense suffering.  Death of your mother at the hands of a blood mage.  Fenris' experience with his old master.  Mages that were freed only to backstab you.  And then of course there was the incident of Anders and the Chantry.

I have noted people cite that the rite of annulment will result in the killing of innocent mages.  Has anyone ever thought that if you go against Meredith that you'd be killing many innocent templars?  Men with familes.  IMO just as equally as tragic which cannot be a deciding factor. 

In the end I decided to side with the Templars despite my previous attempts of mage favortism because I just don't believe mages can be trusted to be responsible with their immense amount of power.  Each mage is a ticking time bomb waiting to go off which in Ander's case almost literally.  The rite of Annullment over the top and extreme? Sure.  Lesser of two evils?  Abso-******-lutely.

Lesser of two evils? The Templars following Meredith still decided to fight with her. They made a choice so innocence was surrendered. The mages have no choice fight or die.

The Templar system creates more problems then it solves, Of the numerious blood mages you meet in the game how many became so to fight the templars. The templars don't solve problems, they oppress and abuse mages. You completely ignore the fact that despie the iron grip the templars held over the city they utterly failed in there duty.

The answer is simple, treating people like criminals doesn't stop them from becoming criminals it in fact makes them become crimanals. Seriously remove every blood mage in the game who became one to fight templars and your left with Merril, Quinten and possibly yourself.

The Templar system is an utter failure.

[Wulfram]

Aethel was a mage and would help her fellow mages when she could, but wasn't a revolutionary and tried hard to keep the peace. When that was made impossible, she killed Anders in an attempt to stop the cause from being tainted by his crime and joined the fight on the mages side while fearing it was hopeless. She left the city feeling a failure and will only emerge from hiding reluctantly, if at all.

Caya was a warrior who started out sympathetic to the mages, but with Bethany no longer with her, Anders being crazy and a blood mage killing her mother found herself understanding the Templars more. More, she felt a deep sense of responsibility to the city which had made her its Champion, and so, though she disagreed with Annullment, she felt the best way to preserve the city was to ensure that the Templar's victory was as swift as possible, rather than risking a long conflict which would see abominations and blood mages spread destruction. She knows she has been accomplice to an atrocity, but judges the blood on her hands worth it to defend her city and protect its citizens.

[Revik]

Vukodlak wrote...

Lesser of two evils? The Templars following Meredith still decided to fight with her. They made a choice so innocence was surrendered. The mages have no choice fight or die.

The Templar system creates more problems then it solves, Of the numerious blood mages you meet in the game how many became so to fight the templars. The templars don't solve problems, they oppress and abuse mages. You completely ignore the fact that despie the iron grip the templars held over the city they utterly failed in there duty.

The answer is simple, treating people like criminals doesn't stop them from becoming criminals it in fact makes them become crimanals. Seriously remove every blood mage in the game who became one to fight templars and your left with Merril, Quinten and possibly yourself.

The Templar system is an utter failure.

Actually you are not correct.  Any templar who would turn down an order to fulfill the annullment would have been branded as a traitor and also killed.  So yes you have innocent templars you would be slaughtering had you sided with the mages.

You should also get it straight in your head that no one is condoning the abuses or transgressions of the Templars on the mages.  And yes it may have failed here but you are also forgetting what happened in Ferelden.  The Templars failed there by being too lenient or do you consider Gregoir as Iron Fisted as Meredith?

How do you know that it creates more problems than it solves?  Where's your evidence?  Anders was free of the circle and free to do whatever he wanted.  Instead he chose to blow up the chantry with that freedom.  Merrill choose to disregard the warnings of the Keeper and would have succeeded in releasing a demon on the world had the keeper not stepped in.  Trevinter Imperium which gives their mages leeway and politcal power become the essentially the ruling class and they resort to blood magic and demons to extend their power.  Slaves are used for blood magic rituals.

Where is this utopia of mages running free without oversight living in harmony with the rest of the populace?  Closest example of this would be the Dalish where the keeper - a mage - has benevolent rule over the rest.  Then of course if Merrill had indeed succeeded as Keeper we all know where that would have went.

It is better to treat a minority as criminals then to allow ticking time bombs loose on the populace. 

The one thing you are fundamentally not understanding is mages are not exactly people.  They are more akin to Mutants or Jedi.  People with extraordinary power.  And it is mandatory that they learn to control and hone in their powers so that they can be used for good lest they bring wonton destruction on the world.  This is the idea of the circle and the templars are the guardians of the this circle.

You can argue all you want the abuses of the circle were despicable which no one is denying.  Meredith did abuse her authority.  But you cant seriously suggest allow blood magic and abominations upon the general populace as being a good thing.

[totertot]

My Hawke felt that most blood mages and abominations were pushed to the extreme of calling on a demon for help against templar injustices. She thought that they deserved a chance to be free, without Meredith's constant policing. Of course, she was greatly influenced by her romance with Anders, and despite disagreeing with his extreme actions, sided with him against the templars. She agreed with his sentiment, not with his method, and swore to fight for him and his cause even if it meant fleeing Kirkwall. My Hawke was a rogue with a strong "chaotic good" streak and felt oppression and slavery of all kinds was abhorrent.