22 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

A question I've been wondering, since one of the bigger complaints about the overall Friendship/Rivalry system is that it's still 'all or nothing' in the sense that if you don't have max, you can permanently lose a companion right at the very end if you make the choice that companion won't live with. Even now, it can come down to 'say not what you want, but what it takes to max the other person's bar so they won't leave at choice X later on.'

It's sort of a throwback to Mass Effect 2: getting through the Loyalty Mission with No One Left Behind wasn't so much an achievement, but the expected standard. Failing (if not on deliberate planning) was looked down upon. This drove particular frustration towards the Loyalty Conflicts, because without extremely high points one way or another you were sure to lose someone's loyalty, and consequently lose them. Not having the points meant failure: avoiding failure ment infringing on free-choice role playing.

I, for the most part, haven't felt that sort of compulsion for perfection in this game.

For one thing, the Sebastion DLC makes it impossible to come out with everyone 'loyal': at a minimum, either Sebastion or Anders dies or leaves you. For the other, I felt perfectly fine with being left over the decision. Facing down Fenris as I sided with the mages wasn't a failure on my part, or even a betrayal on his: it was Fenris being loyal to his beliefs.

In some respects, I almost wish there wasn't a 'convert companion at will with Max friendship' mechanic: just accepting the costs and losses. Everyone chooses a side, and that side need not be the player character, but their own beliefs. To side with the mages is to lose Fenris and Aveline: to side with the Templars is someone else.

The one opportunity for exception I might want to keep would be for the romance interest. Otherwise, unavoidable losses, so that no one feels they've 'failed' when someone turns against them.

Even though, in my case, I don't feel that. Not really.


So, what are your thoughts/feelings about potentially losing people at the final chapter? Good? Bad? Success vs. failure?

[PSUHammer]

It was all good. It was story telling based on your decisions. Bethany died in the Deep Roads for me. I could have gone back and changed it but kept on for the sake of story. I like letting your decisions play out.

[ad1dash0lm3s]

I don' t feel like I failed if they aren't all with me. I only feel like a failure if the ones I have don't like me to the all the way friendship.

[Helen0rz]

no really...and that's because technically you can't make everyone happy at the end

[TJPags]

Nope, doesn't bother me if I don't end with everyone.

Doesn't bother me if everyone doesn't like me, either. I don't care if I max out someone's friendship bar, or rivalry bar.

I play my game, I make my decisions. If one the companions likes them all, great, if one hates them all, great, if some like some and hate others, great.

Approval only matters to me if I'm trying for something specific, which I never do on my first playthrough, or usually on my second. It's generally not until the third or 4th time through a game that I will attempt to do certain things - complete a specific romance, get a specific characters approval to a certain point, etc. - and then only to see what, if anything, changes.

[gelfie]

It doesn't worry me at all. If Anders had been the way he was in Act III from the very beginning, I would have gladly left him behind!

That is, as long as it happens through my choice and not that of a bug.

[Tainan7509]

TJPags wrote...

Nope, doesn't bother me if I don't end with everyone.

Doesn't bother me if everyone doesn't like me, either. I don't care if I max out someone's friendship bar, or rivalry bar.

I play my game, I make my decisions. If one the companions likes them all, great, if one hates them all, great, if some like some and hate others, great.

Approval only matters to me if I'm trying for something specific, which I never do on my first playthrough, or usually on my second. It's generally not until the third or 4th time through a game that I will attempt to do certain things - complete a specific romance, get a specific characters approval to a certain point, etc. - and then only to see what, if anything, changes.

Same Here

[Danjaru]

Depends.. In Origins I wanted to keep them all cause I liked them all and used most my companions. In DA2 I lost Isabela, Fenris and Sebastian, didn't really care.

[sonofalich]

i try to please everyone.

[Addai]

I didn't know any particular result was demanded. Isabela has absconded in both my games and I don't really care.

[Kartikeya]

I was very happy that Aveline stuck with me, didn't care (and expected) that Fenris turned, found Sebastian's defection entirely understandable and sympathized with him, and didn't kill Anders because my Hawke couldn't do it. Isabela stuck around, huzzah.

So I guess, in short, no, not in this game. In ME2 it felt different, because there it felt as though Shepard's job was absolutely to do the best she could to bring everyone through alive (at least, if you were playing Paragon) while still accomplishing the mission. Anyone dying was dying under your command and often due to your orders or lack of preparation (such as if you've upgraded the ship enough). In DA2, your companions are not under your command, they're your friends or rivals, and they make their own decisions. It feels good when they make decisions to stick with you, but it doesn't feel like failure when they don't.

[Lekwid]

Actually, doesn't it seem like you could easily do without many of your companions? Maybe 1 or 2 you'd care to stick with you till the end and screw the rest.

[Giltspur]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*
I almost wish there wasn't a 'convert companion at will with Max
friendship' mechanic: just accepting the costs and losses. Everyone
chooses a side, and that side need not be the player character, but
their own beliefs. To side with the mages is to lose Fenris and
Aveline: to side with the Templars is someone else.
*snip*

I think that friendship mechanics that basically make everyone agree with you can be lame.  But I think it worked out okay in this case.

Take Aveline.  She was never a hardline Templar supporter.  If you mention that she married a Templar, she corrects you by saying that she married a man that happened to be a Templar.  And she goes on to suggest some skepticism regaridng the Maker and the Chantry.

And she has additional dialogue where she expresses frustration about doing some of the things she does for you and wonders aloud if it's right.

Given the friendship I'd developed with her though, I'd expect her to side with me despite her various doubts.  And that's what happened.  Having her not side with me because she initially had a Templar lean would have felt artificial.

I do think being someone's friend should alter the way they think when it comes to siding with you.

Same thing with Isabela coming back even though I told her to give the book back to Qunari.  While I couldn't say it in the game, my Hawke's attitude was "Wow, really?  You have what's keeping the Qunari keeping here?  Holy...the level of obliviousness...ah.  Okay, no.  You have to give the book back.  No I'm not rejecting you.  I'm not not supporting you.  Here are the choices 1) start a war that gets a lot of people killed or 2) kill Castillon.  I'M GOING WITH OPTION 2 HERE.  The book...hand it over.  You don't always have to be on the run."  So she runs...and then comes back.  And we do indeed kill Castillon.  And in the conversation she mentions that she's not even sure why she ever wanted a ship so much and that she has more of a reason to settle down now.  It was a believable character change that meshed well with the interactions we'd had.

That said, there's room for improvement.  Why should it be the extremes that matter.  How do you handled measured relationships that have ups and downs and make them as rewarding as max rivals and max friends?  I think it's a good question that I here at 8:50 PM don't have a real answer to.

At any rate, I agree with your point in isolation that sometimes a I-win mechanic that trumps possible consequences of decisions could be cheap.  But I also think a hardcoded stay/leave decision that doesn't factor in your previous relationship with the character could be just as bad or worse.

And yeah I don't mind the idea of such consequences playing out either.  I don't need everyone to be my friend or to be able to save everyone either.  So really I don't think I'm generally disagreeing with you.  I do think however the friendship mechanic can be a good thing as it was in the Aveline and Isabela examples I gave.  Because their being swayed by my friendship felt earned--not cheap.

Modifié par Giltspur, 24 mars 2011 - 12:58 .

[TJPags]

Lekwid wrote...

Actually, doesn't it seem like you could easily do without many of your companions? Maybe 1 or 2 you'd care to stick with you till the end and screw the rest.

I agree with this.  For me, it was very hard to connect to these characters, mainly because I think there wasn't nearly enough interaction with them.  I'm finding that, because of the way I play I guess, that I tend to connect at least a little with different characters in different playthroughs.  First game, it was Aveline.  Second game, it seems to be Merril and Fenris.

Not sure why this is, but the remainder of the characters I have no feeling for at all.  And I don't even feel much for the ones I connect with, I just seem to enjoy having them around - probably more about their talents then about their personalities.

[Frumyfrenzy]

I feel that I failed and that is one of the reasons I have to do another playthrough. I NEED a perfect playthrough for continuing DLC and a perfect save for (hopefully) DA3. Just like I needed to replay DA1, ME1 and ME2 for those reasons! I need perfect saves, free of fails! I need my own perfect canon Warden/Hawke/Shep! DAMN YOU BIOWARE!

[Giltspur]

Frumyfrenzy wrote...

I feel that I failed and that is one of the reasons I have to do another playthrough. I NEED a perfect playthrough for continuing DLC and a perfect save for (hopefully) DA3. Just like I needed to replay DA1, ME1 and ME2 for those reasons! I need perfect saves, free of fails! I need my own perfect canon Warden/Hawke/Shep! DAMN YOU BIOWARE!

But what if some fails here and there make for a better story and a more rewarding experience?  Maybe you have to play every possible permutation of the game and decide which is the best one!  :innocent:

[Estelindis]

I don't feel I failed by killing Anders. Anders failed Hawke by his actions, not the other way around.

On the other hand, Isabela never returned to my party after leaving in Act 2. Playing a rogue as I did, I guess I just didn't have her in my party enough to increase her friendship. I feel I failed a bit on that front. However, she failed far worse than my Hawke did (in my limited opinion), with her selfishness leading to so many deaths. So meh.

[Frumyfrenzy]

Giltspur wrote...

Frumyfrenzy wrote...

I feel that I failed and that is one of the reasons I have to do another playthrough. I NEED a perfect playthrough for continuing DLC and a perfect save for (hopefully) DA3. Just like I needed to replay DA1, ME1 and ME2 for those reasons! I need perfect saves, free of fails! I need my own perfect canon Warden/Hawke/Shep! DAMN YOU BIOWARE!

But what if some fails here and there make for a better story and a more rewarding experience?  Maybe you have to play every possible permutation of the game and decide which is the best one!  :innocent:

I'm gonna prepare for that by extensive reading after a first innocent playthrough and I will think real hard about the tough decisions I'm gonna stick to for my perfect and very own canon savegame, ready to be imported! Wiki, forum, walkthroughs, I have to check them to thoroughly prepare for this. Again, DAMN YOU BIOWARE!

[Mhadi]

On my first play through I understood and respected Sebastian's choice to leave when I spared Anders. He did just destroy his home and kill the most important person in his life who was still alive. As for Fenris' defection, that too I understood, but I played the "die beside a friend" card, and was okay with that as well. Aveline and I were true "Bros" and I'd never expect her to leave my side.

One of my play throughs, possibly this one with my heartless bastard of a warrior, I'll probably sleep with Isabela and give her to the Qunari and let anyone who chooses to abandon me do so and cut them down.

[coinop25]

I actually found it more interesting my first time through when I not only lost Fenris, but had to fight him. It was a great scene, these two guys who like and respect each other, but know what they have to do. It made me feel kind of fuzzy inside on my mage playthrough (romancing Fenris) to realize I would get to keep EVERYONE – I mean, even Carver stepped in for me at the last minute! – but I still felt like it made for a more interesting story if there was some sense of loss, so I told Anders to take a hike. >

[DrFumb1ezX]

I only lost Sebastian, and had made friends with everyone, so it was comforting to know that I had actually won their loyalty so much that even if they thought I was wrong, they would still side with me and be my friend/ally. Fenris, I thought, would totally have screwed me over cause I sided with mages, but the fact he sided with me despite his feeling towards mages was a awesome feeling for me.

'Course, now I gotta deal with Seb here who swore to freaking eat my liver on a silver-platter....
Not my smartest choice...
(Oh and Merrill made the "You kicked my puppy" eyes and voice on me, so I was helpless.)

[Emperor Iaius I]

I actually WANTED to hand over Isabela and Fenris, but reloaded and kept them because I wanted my first playthrough to have all of them so I could see their quests. Next time, I think I shan't hestitate about getting rid of them.

[Buckarama]

I like getting all the characters but I hate the friendship/rivalry mechanic. Why do I need the to follow me if we don't have the same beliefs? Most of the characters I leave in there base and never come back to them. IF I can't do anything to make them happy then why try? Wasted effort as far as I'm concerned, and it's completely unneeded in this setting.