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Gamecritics score: 2.5, and MOST comments agree with it


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#351
GrandHarrier

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Ahicz wrote...

GrandHarrier wrote...

 I want real facts from reviews.


Okay, let's start then.

Every single dungeon in the game, no matter where it lies or what is it supposed to be (bandit hideout, cave in the wilderness etc.) is the same damn map, reused over and over and over and over again.

Enemies spawn in waves and literally out of thin air.

Thos are simply facts. You can not argue with them. Do I really need to go on?


Not at all. I've played the game. I acknowledge it has some flaws. But I believe that people are blowing things out of proportions. Map reuse is bad, I agree. But the waves of enemies didn't bother me. I can see why it might for some people, but half the time it's demons out of the fade, spiders from the ceiling, or dragonlings from off screen. Only the human enemies are a bit silly, at times, but they generally do something like drop from ropes that could easily be from the nearby buildings.

None of these things deserve such a low score. That's spitting distance of Superman 64 and you're really calling it that level? I trust people are smarter than that.

My purpose in pointing out the man's hyperbole is that he can't even properly review it without saying clearly false things. And if he does that what else is also hyperbole and thus needs to be taken with a grain of salt?

I know I'll just get labeled a Bioware fanboy but I was content with my experience. I loved the characters. Enjoyed the story. Internet nerd rage can't take that away from me. And I only have to look to the fact that people have been devolving into hatred towards ME2 (really? Last years GOTY? OK.) and absolute praise for the pile known as the Witcher. Yeah, that game, the one with the truly horrendous battle system collectible sex conquest trading cards.

#352
e1team

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

I hope Bioware reads this!


...And doesn't give a **** about stupid people!

Modifié par e1team, 24 mars 2011 - 05:48 .


#353
addu2urmanapool

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Bioware fanboys RUSH to defend the game without even reading the review, as usual.

#354
Ariella

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Wivvix wrote...

This review was 100% spot on. I really couldn't have said it better myself.

I've identified the reason DA2 was so bad. The lead designer, Mike Laidlaw, professed this opinion in response to criticisms about DA2.

Mike Laidlaw: Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team. Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or anything complex like that.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview


It would be nice if you actually gave the full quote in context rather than being disingenious:

Eurogamer:
One stronger criticism levelled at Dragon Age II was that it was
designed by committee; it tried too hard to appeal too far and wide, and
in doing so it lost a sense of self. What do you say to that?

Mike Laidlaw:
Dragon Age II was designed by just the senior, core team.
Honestly I don't feel it's a game that's been designed to appeal far and
wide and so on. If it were, there were choices we could have made that
would have taken it much, much further. We would have probably
simplified down to a single character, maybe with companions; probably
looked at doing some even deeper changes to inventory management, making
sure that... You wouldn't want to confuse people with enchanting or
anything complex like that. Really what we wanted to do with the game,
just talking about first-principles, was to look at elements of Origins
that were over complex and needlessly so and see if we could pull those
out in a clean way and didn't take out what I always saw as core
elements of the experience: strong, character-driven stories, and the
idea that the combat should be a party working together, especially at
higher difficulty levels.Dragon Age II certainly made some
changes but holds very true to what us as a team sees as core tenets of
the series. There's certainly refinement to do, there's learnings to be
had, but I don't think it loses as much of the personality as it
certainly could have


He's talking about what they would/could have done if the objective of DA2 was mass appeal rather than being a niche rpg.

Modifié par Ariella, 24 mars 2011 - 05:58 .


#355
GrandHarrier

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

Bioware fanboys RUSH to defend the game without even reading the review, as usual.


"There's no reason I should spend more time looking at loading screens than playing."
"Approximately 22 hours of play were devoted to the single-player mode, and the game was completed."

Quotes taken directly from the review, which apparently, wasn't read? I guess?

#356
e1team

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

Bioware fanboys RUSH to defend the game without even reading the review, as usual.

I did not rush anywhere. I am on my 5th playthrough and besides occasional lags and Merrill Act 3 bug I have no negative thoughts on that game. May be you console fans should go to work and earn some money for good PC rig. Consoles are dying and dragging you into the abyss with them.

#357
addu2urmanapool

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Look at what Mike Laidlaw is saying. He's saying that we should be happy with how bad Dragon Age 2 because it could have been even worse! THAT is his core logic, and we should call him out on it.

#358
Giubba

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

Bioware fanboys RUSH to defend the game without even reading the review, as usual.


No i read the review and i think he's only a butthurt fanboy.
I've read ,on this same forum, negative review made from user that i complitly disagree on but at least they weren't some pathtetic conglomerate of moaning, grown up kid you and those who thinks like you aren't the center of the universe like me and those who thinks likes me aren't .

Modifié par Giubba1985, 24 mars 2011 - 06:04 .


#359
ZombiePowered

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

Look at what Mike Laidlaw is saying. He's saying that we should be happy with how bad Dragon Age 2 because it could have been even worse! THAT is his core logic, and we should call him out on it.


He's talking about the personality change of the game from Origins. He isn't saying the game is bad, or could have been worse. He's saying the style could have been far more different from Origins, but that, while changing and simplifying needlessly complicated things, they kept the core features of the game that made it great.
 

Modifié par ZombiePowered, 24 mars 2011 - 06:13 .


#360
Guest_Aotearas_*

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Ahicz wrote...

GrandHarrier wrote...

 I want real facts from reviews.


Okay, let's start then.

Every single dungeon in the game, no matter where it lies or what is it supposed to be (bandit hideout, cave in the wilderness etc.) is the same damn map, reused over and over and over and over again.

Enemies spawn in waves and literally out of thin air.

Thos are simply facts. You can not argue with them. Do I really need to go on?



Oh, I dare you to go on. Because I do really think, that apart the missing fact from tedious boss fights which do take WAY too long and are rather average in design save for the ARW, there is nothing more to add.

Or is it?

Now rides in Ahicz, with his kilometerlong list of undeniable facts. I dare you, truly!

#361
Ariella

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addu2urmanapool wrote...

Look at what Mike Laidlaw is saying. He's saying that we should be happy with how bad Dragon Age 2 because it could have been even worse! THAT is his core logic, and we should call him out on it.


It amazes me what people can take out of context. He was answering the accusations that DA2 was designed by comittee and that it was created to appeal to such a large audience as to have stripped the game of personality. He's not saying that Dragon Age 2 is bad or that people should be happy because it could have been worse. He's answering a specific question, and talking about mechanics elements that were overly complex and streamlining them so they don't get in the way of actually playing the game.

#362
Reinveil

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e1team wrote...

addu2urmanapool wrote...

I hope Bioware reads this!


...And doesn't give a **** about stupid people!


And my earlier point is validated yet again.

u mad?

#363
Tom Jolly

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Bravo, Brad. Great points. The number score is a bit too low to garner credibility. However, if you accept that Bioware and EA rushed this game and willfully betrayed the promises of its predecessor, then its fair score.

Modifié par Tom Jolly, 24 mars 2011 - 07:13 .


#364
Reinveil

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Tom Jolly wrote...

Bravo, Brad. Great points. The number score is a bit too low to garner credibility. However, if you accept the Bioware and EA rushed this game and willfully betrayed the promises of its predecessor, then its fair.


Just to save the defenders some time:

But it's unfair to compare it to it's predecessor, you have to judge it on it's own merits!

Even though it's...you know...a numbered sequel.

Also, (insert game here) reuses locations!  PC ELITIST!

That about cover it?

Modifié par Reinveil, 24 mars 2011 - 06:34 .


#365
Costello_Anasazi

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I do hope Bioware take this on board. As we all know the next and possibly final DLC for ME2 is going to be out shortly and Star Wars the Old Republic as well and it would be a real disappointment if they turned out the same way Dragon Age 2 has.

Dragon Age 2 sadly didn't deliver. It did feel like a side story where another company has borrowed the licence and not a sequel. And hopefully this will be turned around by any expansions or Dragon Age 3 so they don't sit back and think this was as good as Origins.

#366
CaptBurn

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It's a simple reality.

Bioware 'stripped' down the game to make it cheaper and faster to produce. If they were so concerned about 'stripping' it down, why did they leave the 'junk' stuff even in the game? It made no sense in that context.

It didn't have anything to do with appealing to a large audience, etc. DA:O seemed to have plenty of appeal.  The Laidlaw comments were just spin.  I would have respected him more if he was just honest.  They cheaped out and used their franchise to sell the game instead of the game quality itself.

I agree with this Brad guy's review. He hits many of the points I was thinking during my three playthroughs. This was the first time I purchased a game like this for my PS3 over my PC so I kept telling myself that 'these things wouldn't be like this on PC'; however, the differences are not so substantial after all (having now seen the PC version in action).  I LOL'd at the dudes popping in, to be honest.  Having done a lot of toolkit stuff back in the NWN days, I knew exactly why they did it that way.  There is no AI!  LOL  The entire fight is scripted.  Much faster and cheaper to produce that way.  They couldn't even get the mobs to run around buildings (if you question, just play the game and see how many mobs get stuck behind corners) so they had make them 'fall in'.  I couldn't stop laughing at the cheapness of it!

I liked many things about the game but the things mentioned in the review were spot on. The score is largely irrelevant; however, I would say 2.5 is low but in the context of how utterly disappointing this 'RPG' was in terms of RPG gameplay I can see how frustration could lead to such a low score particularly when it comes from a design house such as Bioware.

I liked the faster paced action oriented combat for sure, but many things (such as choosing your companions armor, etc.) are a large part the RPG micromanagement experience. The complete lack of different and extraordinary items was quite frustrating... Sad that the best looking armors in the game are from free DLC for playing other EA games (you can never afford the few cool items in the game anyway without exploiting your gold). Someone needs to take a look at Blizzard and see how to do item design and integration correctly... But, wait, that would cost money to design more armors and cool looking things (and areas)...

Forget about it. Maybe they will do better next time.

Modifié par CaptBurn, 24 mars 2011 - 06:43 .


#367
Reinveil

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I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of the responses I've seen in interviews and the constructive criticism thread (which was set up by staff) are encouraging. I'm not going to day one purchase another Bioware product for a while, but I'm certainly not writing them off either. Every developer makes mistakes, it's just that this particular one so seldom does it I think it's sort of amplifying the disappointment.

#368
Giubba

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Reinveil wrote...

Tom Jolly wrote...

Bravo, Brad. Great points. The number score is a bit too low to garner credibility. However, if you accept the Bioware and EA rushed this game and willfully betrayed the promises of its predecessor, then its fair.


Just to save the defenders some time:

But it's unfair to compare it to it's predecessor, you have to judge it on it's own merits!

Even though it's...you know...a numbered sequel.

Also, (insert game here) resuses locations!  PC ELITIST!

That about cover it?


You know what i hate about those kind of critics?
it's the fact that you implies that those who don't think that DA2 is a pile of **** are some kind of mentally retarded idiots only able to follow the flock .

Get some guts and say it openly if you really must.

#369
AloraKast

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Reinveil wrote...

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of the responses I've seen in interviews and the constructive criticism thread (which was set up by staff) are encouraging. I'm not going to day one purchase another Bioware product for a while, but I'm certainly not writing them off either. Every developer makes mistakes, it's just that this particular one so seldom does it I think it's sort of amplifying the disappointment.


Reinveil, could you point me to some of those responses (from the devs/Bioware) please? I really would love to see what their thoughts are in response to the fan comments, etc. (and I am hoping you could save me from perusing pages and pages of... stuff). Image IPB

Many thanks hun!

#370
UnstableMongoose

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So, I'm going to move out on a limb here and take an unusual stance for the defenders. Plenty of people have adequately and eloquently defended characters, story structure, and what have you. I'm going to point out a core flaw in the logic of the anti-DA2 flamers posting in the forums here. And no, it's not that they're complaining about a game on its official forums, there are strong strains of logic that run through that course of action, though it does seem oxymoronic on the surface.

It's people treating opinions as law, especially those of highly brief and condescending source Gamecritics.com, a source which is so legitimate that it uses a crappy blog layout that makes the new Gawker interface look functional and uses the abbreviation "WTF" in bold letters to clarify 1/3 of what they consider to be the core of their arguments and requires that every article have a "LOW" that receives just as much visual attention as the positive qualities of the game, even if it is a relatively minor complaint (or at least what a reasonable person would consider unimportant, it may often be characterized as a major flaw in their reviews).

So, to even further clarify why this dependance on small-time opinion websites such as GC is pathetic, count the number of visibly positive reviews on their front page: zero. Damn, that didn't work out so well, did it? Smaller time opinion sites like GC thrive on conflict, essentially being forced as a business model to be overly negative.

Does that mean I trust the opinions of, say, IGN just because they're bigger? No, they're suspect to the same problems where outside influences affect their arbitrary score numbers.

So, why precisely do I believe that reliance on these critic sites is primarily a flaw of the anti-DA2 flamers? If you'll read a typical argument between a supporter and a flamer, the flamer will typically post something like this GC article. The supporter will typically (though not in all cases) respond with the reasons why they personally enjoyed the game and did not find the flaws stressed in the reviews to be as crippling as the reviewer found them. 

This means that, in a very real sense, the flamers get into an opinion war simply parroting the opinions of others and acting like throwing a linkstorm of opinion articles counts as "proof" on some sad level, and that the word of some e-famous flamer is more valuable on an intrinsic level than the layman's, while supporters are more likely to present clearly enumerated responses that are based on their own experiences.

#371
Sylvius the Mad

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DarkSpiral wrote...

I read the whole review.  I cannot argue with some of his complaints.  That having been said, the score is ridiculous.

2.5? He's getting PAID for scoring a game that low, which mechanically works well? 2.5 is score that belongs to games that are b-r-o-k-e-n. I'd understand a 4 ort 5 out of 10.

If a game simply doesn't work, I'd give it a 0/10 every time.

2.5  seems a bit low, but his specific complaints are well-supported, I think.  If I score it higher it is because of the good features which he failed to notice.  But his complaints, I think, are accurate.

#372
Reinveil

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Giubba1985 wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

Tom Jolly wrote...

Bravo, Brad. Great points. The number score is a bit too low to garner credibility. However, if you accept the Bioware and EA rushed this game and willfully betrayed the promises of its predecessor, then its fair.


Just to save the defenders some time:

But it's unfair to compare it to it's predecessor, you have to judge it on it's own merits!

Even though it's...you know...a numbered sequel.

Also, (insert game here) resuses locations!  PC ELITIST!

That about cover it?


You know what i hate about those kind of critics?
it's the fact that you implies that those who don't think that DA2 is a pile of **** are some kind of mentally retarded idiots only able to follow the flock .

Get some guts and say it openly if you really must.


So instead of proving me wrong by discussing the game's merits in an intelligent manner without resorting to the same tired strawmen, you instead put words in my mouth and use a typo-laden provocation (in this case challenging my "Internet manliness").  Thanks for proving my point.

How's that for "open"?

#373
Reinveil

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AloraKast wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. Some of the responses I've seen in interviews and the constructive criticism thread (which was set up by staff) are encouraging. I'm not going to day one purchase another Bioware product for a while, but I'm certainly not writing them off either. Every developer makes mistakes, it's just that this particular one so seldom does it I think it's sort of amplifying the disappointment.


Reinveil, could you point me to some of those responses (from the devs/Bioware) please? I really would love to see what their thoughts are in response to the fan comments, etc. (and I am hoping you could save me from perusing pages and pages of... stuff). Image IPB

Many thanks hun!


I should clarify that they haven't come right out and said "yeah we screwed up" or anything quite that dramatic, it's more a willingness to at least consider some of the more commonly-discussed opinions critics have regarding the game's shortcomings.  The fact that they'd start a thread for constructive criticism at all is a good sign that not everyone at Bioware thinks they've crafted a game beyond reproach.

Though I think Mr. Laidlaw isn't the best choice to be doing interviews for Bioware, I did appreciate this bit of candor from him:

"Eurogamer:  The Metacritic score for Dragon Age II (at the time of writing) is 82 per cent. Is that in-line with expectations?

Mike Laidlaw:  It's a little bit lower than we were expecting. We knew going in that this may not sit around the same spot as Origins on all platforms (86 for the 360). There's been, I would say, more strongly negative
reviews appearing on Metacritic than I expected. I'm a little surprised by the 6/10s and they have a fair amount of weight early on. If the Metacritic isn't where we want it to be, and honestly our goal as a studio is to try and aim more for 90, then our next step will be to, very easily, go through those reviews, go through fan feedback,
especially over some time - as opposed to the day-one initial response -and look at that in a measured way and say, what didn't work, what did work, where did we go too far, where did we not go far enough, where was
there just an inherent dissonance, and try to refine the experience and try to move forward for any future products."

www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-10-biowares-mike-laidlaw-a-defence-of-dragon-age-ii-interview

There was another quote that I can't find at the moment (can't remember from whom) that basically said "we tried some new things with DAII that we probably won't be doing again".

So they're aware that many fans are disappointed.  The first quote makes me think he's expecting the negative feedback to taper off as time passes, which it often does for sequels to popular and well-received games.  I don't think that's going to be the case this time around, however.

Modifié par Reinveil, 24 mars 2011 - 07:26 .


#374
DaVeO52

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That was a pretty whiny review. He hits some of the technical stuff accurately like falling knights from the sky and reused maps. But a lot of it is just personal opinion that if you don't agree with you're an idiot.

"For some reason, BioWare thought that dropping a character into a city and watching them meddle in quasi-political affairs while cooling their heels for a decade would be just as entertaining as going on an epic adventure. Surprise—it's not"

Uhh it was to me. What? The adventure can't be epic if it's based on one location mainly? Whatever man. Did we need another "hero is only one who can save the world let's go on a long journey adventure whee this is fun?" Bioware tried something different. Some may like it some may not. Not every story needs to be epic in scope to be good.

"To start with, the cast of teammates as well as the central hero (or heroine) feel like shallow sketches, rather than fully-fleshed characters. Meetings and events happen quickly and without much of the required pacing, and at no point did I feel any sort of connection with them. Companion quests meant to illustrate each character are tossed at the player in regular intervals with no fanfare or build-up beforehand, leaving each "growth moment" feeling unconvincing, mechanical and false. Instead of people the player grows to know over the course of the adventure, these faces are more like boxes to be checked off in pursuit of unlocking a skill tree."

I had no problem connecting with the characters and I felt the personalized skill tree made them feel less carbon copied then Origins did. Also the upgradable skills (which he failed to mention) expanded the tree even more. We got to know our companions past better in Origins but they didn't seem to have a life on their own apart from being with the PC when we were with them. In DA 2 they interacted with each other more and you got the sense they had their own lives.

"However, the plot, setting, dialogue and characters are all shockingly slapdash and unsatisfying."

I disagree.

"Sadly, the developers fundamentally misunderstand what was wrong with encounters in the first place—if you ask me, the fatal flaw was crippling the strategy element for consoles."

Now I know he never set it above Normal. You play this game on Hard or Nightmare and you'll be pausing and readjusting characters and strat quite frequently with barely enough time to mash a button until most of the enemy are dead. I actually used choke points frequently in Act 2 whereas Origins almost never. Combat is crazy. It should be chaotic. We are not moving mass troops against an enemy you can clearly see a mile a way. You start a fight with spells and the clashing or armour in a house or cave then the whole damn place WOULD be alerted to your presence. In Origins the Darkspawn should have been alerted to your presence just as you can sense them but you almost always were able to ambush them (except for the shrieks).

Yes, the humanoid re-spawning was silly looking and needs to be looked at but skeletons popping from the ground, spiders from the ceiling and demons entering though tears were just fine. Most of the Origin players who complain that strat is out the window just can't or won't adjust to the change of pace. You wipe out a group then more come? Oh no, well guess you shouldn't have blown every skill cooldown on the last remaining enemy. Maybe you'll conserve a bit next time. Throw down some tar until you are ready. Divert aggro or run behind a pillar to block LOS. No reason NOT to use poisons as they last for 30 min! No strat my ****.

You REALLY want strat, turn off companion tactics and do it yourself.

2.5. Whatever, this is why I don't listen to reviews that criticize gameplay, they are all just a matter of personal over payed opinions. Talk about tech sure, that is unbiased but don't whine about strat when simple things can be done on your end to change that. Reading that review was a waste of time, I'll be sure to skip any of his others.

Modifié par DaVeO52, 24 mars 2011 - 07:27 .


#375
Marionetten

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ZombiePowered wrote...

If you want fair, reasonable and truthful reviews go read PCGamer.

Yes, because going "DARKER, SEXIER, BETTER!1!" and giving the game a 95% without mentioning any of the actual issues is totally reasonable and truthful. Hypocrisy. Nice to see it's alive and well.

Modifié par Marionetten, 24 mars 2011 - 07:31 .