143 réponses à ce sujet

[Admoniter]

MassEffect762 wrote...
The story/consequences will make or break this game more than anything imo.

Story will no doubt be important and it will without a doubt make or break the game for myself and many others. But gameplay is important for me as well if ME3 plays more or less like ME2 I can safetly say it will be a borrow. Sure some people might call ME1s gameplay an unpolished buggy mess, I wouldn't say they are wrong (although I would disagree.) I found ME1s gameplay incredibly enjoyable, and I see the direction Bioware took with ME2 (and most likely ME3) as and autoimmune disease, sure there were problems, but the degree of the reaction was unwarrented.

[Walker White]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Most games have a low completion percentage. Its the nature of the beast. Bioware uses these metrics to try to make better games. And according the RPG elitists, this is the problem becauase it means Bioware is concentrating on making a better "game" when they're supposed to be creating a traditional RPG experience or some such.

Bear in mind that we know from BioWare that the completion rate of ME2 is much higher than DA:O, that "pinnacle of BioWare RPGs".  People simply do not play games to completion.

BTW, your chart made little sense. You had ME2 with more of every category - haters, meh, and fanboys. So presuming haters don't buy ME3 (you guys aren't buying ME3, right?) then you shouldn't have a greater number of haters for ME3 unless Bioware does something like try to return to ME1, which isn't likely. Maybe you could clarify that?

For that chart to be correct to scale, just about everyone who got the game in the first two weeks would have had to hate it. Which is BS.

But there is a bigger problem here.  All of the comparisons of ME1 and ME2 sales on these forums are pure statistics fails; I hope your teachers are not seeing these posts.  First of all, at this point in the cycle (just over a year out from release), ME1 was still under 2 million X-Box sales.  There is a major increase in sales around the time of the release of ME2, which is exactly what you would expect when you add new people to a series.

More importantly, we cannot measure overall sales just by looking at the X-Box sales. There was no PC ME1 at launch; you had to wait 6 months to get it on PC, and there was no guarantee of PC version at launch.  Much like the PS3 version of ME2, people who would have preferred to get it on one system (PC) got it on the only one for which it was available (X-Box).  It is normal to expect some of these people to shift back to PC for ME2. We have no idea how the PC numbers compare, because they are hard to come by.

Modifié par Walker White, 27 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[spernus]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

SpaceDesperado wrote...

This topic is funny.

ME2 was stripped down from most RPG elements to appeal to a "wider crowd" and it only barely recieved the same amount of sales as the 360 ME1. Despite the fact that the 360 sold around 25 million more copies between ME1 and ME2.

Dragon Age 2 sold much much less and will never outsell Dragon Age: Origins.

ME2 on the ps3, even with all those "extra content" barely managed to sell a quarter million. I wonder why? Maybe they thought even with all those bonuses, it still wasn't enough to justify to purchase a single-player only corridor shooter with interactive dialogue.

Hey, if most people on the ME forums say it's only a loud minority, it must be right?

The complainers about the complainers, who whine about the whiners, and are so quick to invoke the "vocal minority" argument, are just forgetting that they, the ones who actively praise ME2, are also that: a vocal minority, just the one on the other side of the spectrum.

Anybody belonging to the in between 90% was just "Wow@ME2, moving on...", "Meh@ME2, moving on...", or "WTF@ME2, moving on...", and never bothered to post anything on this or any other forum. So the trick is: which game did actually gather more "wows", "mehs" and "WTFs"? And I could bet my rear end that while ME2 might, just might have received more "wows", not the least thanks to the bribed reviews, it definitely beat ME1 by far in the realm of "WTFs". Kinda supported by BioWare's own admission that despite the awesomeness of ME2, about 50% of the players had been failing to complete the game even once in the first half a year upon its release.

That doesn't mean much honestly, there was also plenty of people who didn't make it past the first 10 minutes of Dragon age: origins. You would be surprised at the number of people who drop or don't finish their singleplayer experience, especially if it's something other than a 5-10 hours fps campaign (just by looking at my xbox 360 friendlist).

Anyway, you are wasting your time just as much as TerrorK when Bioware is now fully under EA management and game design philosophy (Bioware is EA) along with the Mass effect 2 team working on this sequel.    Perhaps there is pressure on Bioware, but I couldn't care less about the overall fate of what was once one of my favorite developer. If Bioware has to dig their own grave because of bad EA management, so be it. I want to finish the ME trilogy and will thus buy the game and after that I'm bailing out. I greatly dislike EA modern approach toward game design: rushed for maximum reduction of risk versus potential profit, overload of DLC, weird fixation on needing online multiplayer, etc.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 Kinda supported by BioWare's own admission that despite the awesomeness of ME2, about 50% of the players had been failing to complete the game even once in the first half a year upon its release.

If this is true, it's a bad portent for ME3.  If I'm not willing to finish a game I bought, I'm not buying a sequel.  Heck, if I'm not interested in finishing the demo, I'm sure as heck not buying the game.

And after playing ME1 again a few times... I'm in the "ME2 was watered down" camp. 

[tonnactus]

Dragon Age 2 is a better a game/rpg(by miles) then Mass Effect 2 and still get more rather undeserved criticism.Strange.

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 mars 2011 - 10:32 .

[Torhagen]

SpaceDesperado wrote...

@WalkerWhite The percentage of people who own high-end PC's that would actually buy it on xbox 360 first as an alternative is very low to even bother with dude. Same goes with PS3 owners also owning a high end PC they prefer to game with.

Imo, there are not as many people "excited" to play ME3 as there were for ME2. Especially when mostly everyone can see that the previous two titles released from Bioware have been stream-lined RPG's causing much more negativity from fans than any other Bioware game. People were excited about ME2 because of ME1 and Bioware's great continuous legacy towards RPG games... how about now? The declining sales of their games is proof
Don't forget about the other big name titles coming towards the end of this year that can just as easily replace ME3 for the time being.

Terror_K wrote...
I have to agree. DA2 lost BioWare their "free pass" from me. ME3 being a Day 1'er will depend mostly on how it looks prior to release. If it just looks like ME2 all over again or looks even worse then I'll wait until it's dirt cheap just to finish it off. Beyond that I'll be looking to those who share my tastes and see what they say with new BioWare games... assuming of course they're not doing pretty much the same as me from here on in.

Terror, I can't believe you let them have the free pass with DA2 after ME2 lol. I stopped caring immedietly when the ME2 inspiration was becoming increasingly apparent in the early previews. Especially when most of what they were talking about and showing off was their new hack-n-slash combat system.

This is something I wrote on another topic:
It all comes down to E3 for me. If they focus the whole event on showing off combat with no examples of improved RPG features besides interactive dialogue(exactly what they did for ME2 at E3). I will have no doubt that they are going to continue in this, imo, distasteful route of making RPG video games.

firstly what he said ^

I really really hope that ToR is developed under Pre-ME2 Bioware Philosophy

What i actually hate about DA2 is the 2 in the name.
it should be replaced by  "Adventure in the free Marshes" or some such since isnt a sequel
Its a Diablo with a Story (that is a comliment just in case since i love Diablo and cant wait till part 3 is released Blizzard is the last "Free Pass" developer left i think)

And to think that Bioware did that to themselves i dare to say they would have fared better under MS rule.

Modifié par Torhagen, 28 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[88mphSlayer]

MassEffect762 wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

there are a lot more people excited to at least play Mass Effect 3 (for good or bad) than there ever was prior to Mass Effect 2 coming out... Mass Effect 1 really didn't generate a large following, certainly Dragon Age Origins dwarfed ME1 by a pretty huge margin, it was really Mass Effect 2 getting so much positive feedback that translated into sales that the franchise is as high profile as it is now

there was a lot of pressure on Bioware to make Mass Effect a more popular franchise anyways, the changes made are what a lot of people have issues with, but really the pressure on them now is very different - they've proven themselves and made the Mass Effect franchise AAA fall-release blockbuster material, personally i'm going to remain optimistic because of this change in pressure that ME3 will fix a lot of issues fans had with ME2

We'll see, no doubt ME2 fans will be pleased.

The story/consequences will make or break this game more than anything imo.

Zack Hemsey time: www.youtube.com/watch

My fav Zack Hemsey: www.youtube.com/watch

great music :happy:

[Terror_K]

Torhagen wrote...

I really really hope that ToR is developed under Pre-ME2 Bioware Philosophy

Well, aside from me actually liking the look of TOR and about the only thing putting me off being the fact that it's fully voiced (Seriously... in an MMO?! That's beyond retarded, IMO. That's when you need to be able to actually roleplay more than ever!) they devs actually directly stated that it wasn't being made for the mainstream, casual market and was directly aimed at RPG fans, BioWare fans and Star Wars fans. That gives me hope, considering it's about the only new BioWare title from the past couple of years that hasn't had devs talking about branching out to reach a more mainstream audience, etc.

What i actually hate about DA2 is the 2 in the name.
it should be replaced by  "Adventure in the free Marshes" or some such since isnt a sequel
Its a Diablo with a Story (that is a comliment just in case since i love Diablo and cant wait till part 3 is released Blizzard is the last "Free Pass" developer left i think)

Yeah. It should have been something like "Dragon Age: Hawke's Tale" or "Dragon Age: Kirkwall" or something like that. Even then that wouldn't have saved it, but at least it wouldn't be masquerading as a direct sequel when it really should have been something more like Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance.

[marshalleck]

Terror_K wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

I really really hope that ToR is developed under Pre-ME2 Bioware Philosophy

Well, aside from me actually liking the look of TOR and about the only thing putting me off being the fact that it's fully voiced (Seriously... in an MMO?! That's beyond retarded, IMO. That's when you need to be able to actually roleplay more than ever!) they devs actually directly stated that it wasn't being made for the mainstream, casual market and was directly aimed at RPG fans, BioWare fans and Star Wars fans. That gives me hope, considering it's about the only new BioWare title from the past couple of years that hasn't had devs talking about branching out to reach a more mainstream audience, etc.

Are you serious? Oh man, it this is true and not just marketing speech then Bioware is finished. A huge MMO project like TOR can't survive without courting the mainstream. You're in for either a huge disappointment--either from Bioware lying about who they designed the game for, or from the studio going into bankruptcy when TOR flops. 

It's amazing how they could have their priorities so utterly backwards. Single-player games should be tailored to appeal to their specific genre, while an MMO which requires not only broad but lasting appeal in order to retain subs needs to have a bit of something for everyone. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[Terror_K]

marshalleck wrote...

Are you serious? Oh man, it this is true and not just marketing speech then Bioware is finished. A huge MMO project like TOR can't survive without courting the mainstream. You're in for either a huge disappointment--either from Bioware lying about who they designed the game for, or from the studio going into bankruptcy when TOR flops. 

It's amazing how they could have their priorities so utterly backwards. Single-player games should be tailored to appeal to their specific genre, while an MMO which requires not only broad but lasting appeal in order to retain subs needs to have a bit of something for everyone. 

I think you underestimate the power of the Star Wars fans, and how many there are out there. Let me also put it this way, I work for a game retailer, and we've done no advertising whatsover for TOR. We haven't even acknowledged its existence in any way (it's not listed anywhere on our site, it's not available for pre-order, it pretty much doesn't exist to us yet.) and yet I've had people coming in on an almost weekly basis and asking about it with questions like "do you know when TOR is coming?", "is TOR this year?" and "what's the price of TOR?" etc.

Trust me, the word is getting out there and a lot of people are interested. Considering its marketing campaign is pretty subtle compared to most upcoming titles and it has no solid date yet the word is spreading pretty well.

[Dem_B]

Many people are worried about possible development of Mass Effect 3.
Long before the release DA2, many voiced their concerns about such a short time for develop the final part.

Many call for EA don't rush release of Mass Effect 3.

Many people ask for EA not to choose between quality and timing of the development.

Many people hope that Mass Effect 3 will be very special game, a game which will be a revelation, a game that will be remembered forever and will leave a slight feeling of sadness.
Always after the end of the great stories is sad, because the journey is over, but remains a sense of inspiration, because you were part of story, you have passed this way.

I want to see a clear plot, where everything is thought out and justified.

Great story remains forever in your heart.
I hope that Mass Effect will be a great story. 

[Epic777]

marshalleck wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Torhagen wrote...

I really really hope that ToR is developed under Pre-ME2 Bioware Philosophy

Well, aside from me actually liking the look of TOR and about the only thing putting me off being the fact that it's fully voiced (Seriously... in an MMO?! That's beyond retarded, IMO. That's when you need to be able to actually roleplay more than ever!) they devs actually directly stated that it wasn't being made for the mainstream, casual market and was directly aimed at RPG fans, BioWare fans and Star Wars fans. That gives me hope, considering it's about the only new BioWare title from the past couple of years that hasn't had devs talking about branching out to reach a more mainstream audience, etc.

Are you serious? Oh man, it this is true and not just marketing speech then Bioware is finished. A huge MMO project like TOR can't survive without courting the mainstream. You're in for either a huge disappointment--either from Bioware lying about who they designed the game for, or from the studio going into bankruptcy when TOR flops. 

It's amazing how they could have their priorities so utterly backwards. Single-player games should be tailored to appeal to their specific genre, while an MMO which requires not only broad but lasting appeal in order to retain subs needs to have a bit of something for everyone. 

This maybe true but actuality genres have become more blured. Remember when FPS games were about shooting a zombie in a corner? Hell even your average FPS has more in common with RPGs now.

MMOs now after wow are expected to be more accessable. Everquest was a hardcore MMO, party grinding, long raids, boss camping etc. Wow changed that. Is that bad? Your choice. I will add this MMOs are there own culture like all genres especially when MMOs are different beasts to any RPG. Balance becomes paramount, the social dynamics are increased, etc. TOR is not going to KOTOR online. 

[marshalleck]

Terror_K wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Are you serious? Oh man, it this is true and not just marketing speech then Bioware is finished. A huge MMO project like TOR can't survive without courting the mainstream. You're in for either a huge disappointment--either from Bioware lying about who they designed the game for, or from the studio going into bankruptcy when TOR flops. 

It's amazing how they could have their priorities so utterly backwards. Single-player games should be tailored to appeal to their specific genre, while an MMO which requires not only broad but lasting appeal in order to retain subs needs to have a bit of something for everyone. 

I think you underestimate the power of the Star Wars fans, and how many there are out there. Let me also put it this way, I work for a game retailer, and we've done no advertising whatsover for TOR. We haven't even acknowledged its existence in any way (it's not listed anywhere on our site, it's not available for pre-order, it pretty much doesn't exist to us yet.) and yet I've had people coming in on an almost weekly basis and asking about it with questions like "do you know when TOR is coming?", "is TOR this year?" and "what's the price of TOR?" etc.

Trust me, the word is getting out there and a lot of people are interested. Considering its marketing campaign is pretty subtle compared to most upcoming titles and it has no solid date yet the word is spreading pretty well.

And that same fanbase crucified Star Wars Galaxies, which had brilliant game design and social mechanics before the NGE debacle. Don't assume that fan interest is all that matters. 

Modifié par marshalleck, 29 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Winterfly]

ReconTeam wrote...

I haven't bought DA2 yet so I can't comment about the game's quality. Yet I strongly believe they shouldn't make the ME series more like DA2.

You do understand, that DA2 is more like ME2? So if you make the ME series "more like DA2" you just stay with the formula more or less. 

EDIT: FPS is still about killing, the RPG elements are just "fake"

And WoW is Everquest light. Still boss camping, still raids, still same **** with a diffrent front. 

Modifié par Winterfly, 29 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Payne by name]

Terror_K wrote...

The problem is BioWare's current attitude to RPGs and their obsession with "streamlining" and branching out to the mainstream more, possibly linked to them being part of EA now (after all, a few sources said that EA was pushing them to get out DA2 quickly). ME2 already suffered the same issues that DA2 did, but it wasn't quite as much of a jarring leap because Mass Effect was always an action-RPG with TPS elements as opposed to being something that started off as a hardcore full-on RPG with PC as the lead platform and becoming a console-driven over-the-top action RPG with the sequel. Still, I personally thought ME2 should have got the same reaction that Deus Ex 2 and DA2 got from fans, and yet it mysteriously didn't (well... nowhere near to the same extent, with those disappointed in a minority, unlike DE2 and DA2).

So, as far as I'm concerned, ME2 already suffered from the same issues, but was simply more accepted because it wasn't as much of a deviation. Whether ME3 does depends on whether BioWare can pull their heads out of their own rear-ends and admit to making mistakes and start strengthening the RPG mechanics again and get over this silly obsession with mainstreamlining their games and trying to make them all into these shallow modern Hollywood blockbuster style affairs. There have been claims that the RPG factors will be stronger in ME3, but the proof will be in the pudding. And I'm not really a big fan of the lead designer's philosophy and the lead writer's tendency to screw up canon and so readily push it aside to be "awesome and badass!" etc.

Excellent posting. It's strange to hear others say 'Don't worry, there won't be changes to the ME2 formula, like there was in DA2'. Are they completely ignoring the big changes that occured between ME1 and ME2?

"And I'm not really a big fan of the lead designer's philosophy and the lead writer's tendency to screw up canon and so readily push it aside to be "awesome and badass"

I so agree with this statement as well. It's like they thought if we change to music to generic epic and keep telling everyone that it's sooo epic, less people will notice that not a great deal of 'epic-ness' actually happens. Maybe that is the EA mantra - keep shouting until people stop caring.

[Spectro87]

Kandid001 wrote...

Already discussed to death.

In short, different teams work on DA and ME, also don't expect radical changes in ME3 like DA:O to DA2.

Numerous people hide behind this excuse. Did you not see radical changes from ME to ME2? Have you not played DAII and seen the numerous gameplay elements that were incorporated (mostly for the worse and not the better)?

BioWare has been developing RPGs for a long time. Now they are being pushed to make games simpler, more action/shooter/hack-n-slash oriented because it is what the average person can pick up and play easily.

Modifié par Spectro87, 29 mars 2011 - 11:34 .

[Whatever42]

Spectro87 wrote...

Kandid001 wrote...

Already discussed to death.

In short, different teams work on DA and ME, also don't expect radical changes in ME3 like DA:O to DA2.

Numerous people hide behind this excuse. Did you not see radical changes from ME to ME2? Have you not played DAII and seen the numerous gameplay elements that were incorporated (mostly for the worse and not the better)?

BioWare has been developing RPGs for a long time. Now they are being pushed to make games simpler, more action/shooter/hack-n-slash oriented because it is what the average person can pick up and play easily.

The ME2 team has already said there will be no significant changes to the mechanics. Actually, they said that they will try to introduce some more traditional RPG elements back.

And the reason they are making changes are not because of EA - although EA may be responsible for tighter timelines and budgets, which probably did impact DA2. No, Bioware is making changes based on their metrics. When they see a significant number of people skipping conversations, they try to put less exposition and more drama in the conversations. They try to make the converstations more kinetic. And so on.

DA:O may have sold well but from what I understand, they didn't like the completion rate so they made changes. Of course, the problem with making changes is that there are always people who liked it exactly the way it was.

[Torhagen]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Spectro87 wrote...

Kandid001 wrote...

Already discussed to death.

In short, different teams work on DA and ME, also don't expect radical changes in ME3 like DA:O to DA2.

Numerous people hide behind this excuse. Did you not see radical changes from ME to ME2? Have you not played DAII and seen the numerous gameplay elements that were incorporated (mostly for the worse and not the better)?

BioWare has been developing RPGs for a long time. Now they are being pushed to make games simpler, more action/shooter/hack-n-slash oriented because it is what the average person can pick up and play easily.

The ME2 team has already said there will be no significant changes to the mechanics. Actually, they said that they will try to introduce some more traditional RPG elements back.

And the reason they are making changes are not because of EA - although EA may be responsible for tighter timelines and budgets, which probably did impact DA2. No, Bioware is making changes based on their metrics. When they see a significant number of people skipping conversations, they try to put less exposition and more drama in the conversations. They try to make the converstations more kinetic. And so on.

DA:O may have sold well but from what I understand, they didn't like the completion rate so they made changes. Of course, the problem with making changes is that there are always people who liked it exactly the way it was.

You can hardly compare DA:O completion with the ME2 completion for
the simple fact that DA:O is the bigger time sink specially if you use
every given origin/class Combo

Please the didnt expect such a backlash after turning ME2 into FPS with
RPG Lite. Now they try to pick up the pieces a good game is more than
the sum of its parts and some metrics or diagrams.

What the ME2 and especially ME3 Experience desperately needs is more substance.

Modifié par Torhagen, 31 mars 2011 - 02:57 .