122 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Even furthermore, in Act 3, if Hawke asks for leniency for the traitors and you ask Cullen about what happened, they really were pretty lenient. The renegade templars are suspended without pay, and the mages are sedated and confined to their quarters. That's pretty damn lenient for an open rebellion meant to oust the person handing down the punishment.

[Esoj16]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sympathize? Not really. But I found my second playthrough easier to side with the templars after learning Orsino was not quite the guy I thought he was by enabling Quentin's 'research', which lead to killing mother, then using the research to become the Harvester himself. Never been able to look at him the same again.

I have been anti blood mage since Origins, so I certainly agreed with her cause, just disagreed with her methods. I executed everyone in the game involved with blood magic, and spared mages who willingly returned to the circle without using blood magic. I spared the mages at the end who surrendered without resorting to blood magic, despite Meredith's wishes.

Pretty much this right here.  Plus, Meredith>>>>>>>Orsino, why? Because at least Meredith was doing what she genuinely thought was right and what was best for protecting the citizens of Kirkwall, Orsino on the other hand helps hide a serial killer blood mage just for political reasons.  I think a lot of people are unfair to Meredith here on the forums because they can't look past mages being abused, which is tragic and sad, but there are a lot of reason to be afraid and cautious of mages.  Too bad Anders killed any chance of a compromise.......<_<

Modifié par Link3521, 24 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Sarah1281]

There is a letter to Ser Alrik that both the Divine AND Meredith rejected his proposal for the Tranquil solution. Ser Alrik continued to do so, in a secret cave, against their orders. No evidence whatsoever to support the claim that either looked away. Ser Alrik was clearly very disappointed in the decision.

Yes, I did note that Meredith turned down his plan. Still, think about the implications of the situation. Meredith knows that Alrik thinks that all mages should be made Tranquil. She lets him stay in the order and hang around mages anyway while she fired Samson for playing mailman. She either is not aware that he's making all these mages Tranquil (and Anders makes it sound like it's a lot) and thus she's a crappy leader or she doesn't care.

Also, running away from the Circle IS a crime punishable by death. If you ever played Awakenings, that's how your Warden meets Anders. Anders ran away from the Circle, and the Templars caught up with him in Vigil's Keep. The Warden invoked the Right of Conscription and made Anders take the ritual. He would have been a dead man if the Templars dragged him back to the Circle anyway, so he had no choice but to become a Grey Warden.

I did play Awakening. I found out that Anders had fled the Circle a record seven times and was only in danger of being killed this time because Rylock thought he killed the templars. Mages killing templars is an offense punishable by death. Mages running away...it depends on the templar. Some will kill the mages but they could just as easily claim they were given no choice if anyone complains.

If Meredith was truly a monster, she would have ignored the pleas to spare the boy's life, as it was completely within the law to do so.

Monster =/= idiot. Unnecessarily pissing off a noble family would not have been in her best interests. Well within her rights, maybe. A good idea? No.

She actually performed several acts of mercy in Act 1 and 2. By Act 3, she had completely descended into madness, along with everyone else.

The apostate quest is Act 3. What acts of mercy does she perform in Act 1 or 2? She's not even IN 1 and in 2 she shows up long enough to save your life so you can fight, tell mage-you she has bigger problems with the invasion, and then is the first to call you Champion. I don't see the mercy.

[tanerb123]

i think she is very hot. would be great id she'd be one of the romance options. first wynn, now meredith. when will bioware help us, mature women lovers?

[Elessie]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Also, running away from the Circle IS a crime punishable by death.  If you ever played Awakenings, that's how your Warden meets Anders.  Anders ran away from the Circle, and the Templars caught up with him in Vigil's Keep.  The Warden invoked the Right of Conscription and made Anders take the ritual.  He would have been a dead man if the Templars dragged him back to the Circle anyway, so he had no choice but to become a Grey Warden.

Well they didn't sentence him to death after the first six times he ran away...  It really just seemed like Rylock wanted to kill him because she thought he murdered those templars he was with during the darkspawn attack.  And if a runaway mage is suspected of blood magic, then it's a different story.

[Sarah1281]

Even furthermore, in Act 3, if Hawke asks for leniency for the traitors and you ask Cullen about what happened, they really were pretty lenient. The renegade templars are suspended without pay, and the mages are sedated and confined to their quarters. That's pretty damn lenient for an open rebellion meant to oust the person handing down the punishment.

Really? Wow. I never asked for that because I figued she'd ignore it. I know Alain survives because I see him afterwords but that one time I asked Cullen he wouldn't tell me. He just said that I should have seen them on my way in and that Meredith made an example of them.

Because at least Meredith was doing what she genuinely thought was right and what was best for protecting the citizens of Kirkwall, Orsino on the other hand helps hide a serial killer blood mage just for political reasons.

Be fair. Those 'political reasons' were protecting his mages from Meredith's zealotry. He shouldn't have done it but he had better reasons than politics.

[dragonflight288]

Despite Meredith and Orsino entering so late into the game, they obviously have a HUGE impact on us gamers because we debate so much about them. Anyway, my opinion on Meredith is that she is an older version of Carver gone off the deep end. There was her sister for example who killed their whole family and 70 others before the templars could put her down. Before then, Meredith tried to help keep her mage sister safe.

I honestly thought about her arguments as she debated with Orsino and why she wanted the annul the Circle after Anders turns terrorist. But I just can't sympathize with her because when she is given an option to prevent a bloodbath and get what she originally wanted, she outright rejects it.

Meredith

A mage has destroyed the Chantry!

Orsino: Don't blame us all for a crime we didn't commit! You can search the Circle. I'll help you.

Meredith: A mage destroyed the chantry. The circle must be annuled!

Well...I'm not entirely sure that's the exact wording but that's the general idea. She isn't listening to anyone. She certainly won't listen to Hawke, Orsino, or even Cullen.

When I played and supported the mages, after I had nearly escaped the Gallows, Meredith and Cullen trapped us, and Meredith ordered my death, and Cullen was all "We were going to arrest the champion." and she is all "I don't care. Kill him anyway."

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

There is a letter to Ser Alrik that both the Divine AND Meredith rejected his proposal for the Tranquil solution. Ser Alrik continued to do so, in a secret cave, against their orders. No evidence whatsoever to support the claim that either looked away. Ser Alrik was clearly very disappointed in the decision.

Yes, I did note that Meredith turned down his plan. Still, think about the implications of the situation. Meredith knows that Alrik thinks that all mages should be made Tranquil. She lets him stay in the order and hang around mages anyway while she fired Samson for playing mailman. She either is not aware that he's making all these mages Tranquil (and Anders makes it sound like it's a lot) and thus she's a crappy leader or she doesn't care.

As far as she knew, Ser Alrik was just 'proposing' this Tranquil solution.  Should she have fired him just for proposing it?  I'm not willing to make assumptions that she didn't care.

She fired Samson for being a lyrium addict.  In Act 3, if you ask Cullen to reinstate him, he doesn't want to because Samson is in a bad state.  Meredith ends up agreeing, because Hawke asked it.  If you find him in the Gallows, all he does is prattle about his next lyrium fix.  Made me regret reinstating him.  He does show up at the final battle.

Also, running away from the Circle IS a crime punishable by death. If you ever played Awakenings, that's how your Warden meets Anders. Anders ran away from the Circle, and the Templars caught up with him in Vigil's Keep. The Warden invoked the Right of Conscription and made Anders take the ritual. He would have been a dead man if the Templars dragged him back to the Circle anyway, so he had no choice but to become a Grey Warden.

I did play Awakening. I found out that Anders had fled the Circle a record seven times and was only in danger of being killed this time because Rylock thought he killed the templars. Mages killing templars is an offense punishable by death. Mages running away...it depends on the templar. Some will kill the mages but they could just as easily claim they were given no choice if anyone complains.

So we are understood she was within her right to do so.

If Meredith was truly a monster, she would have ignored the pleas to spare the boy's life, as it was completely within the law to do so.

Monster =/= idiot. Unnecessarily pissing off a noble family would not have been in her best interests. Well within her rights, maybe. A good idea? No.

Agreed.  She's no dummy.

She actually performed several acts of mercy in Act 1 and 2. By Act 3, she had completely descended into madness, along with everyone else.

The apostate quest is Act 3. What acts of mercy does she perform in Act 1 or 2? She's not even IN 1 and in 2 she shows up long enough to save your life so you can fight, tell mage-you she has bigger problems with the invasion, and then is the first to call you Champion. I don't see the mercy.

You hear of her in Act 1, but don't meet her until Act 2.  The Starkhaven mages, for one, were not executed for escaping.  They templars say Meredith wanted them dead, but was convinced not to.  She had nothing to gain by sparing the Starhaven mages, they weren't nobles. Given what a pain they become in Act 3, I wish she had.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Elessie wrote...

Well they didn't sentence him to death after the first six times he ran away...  It really just seemed like Rylock wanted to kill him because she thought he murdered those templars he was with during the darkspawn attack.  And if a runaway mage is suspected of blood magic, then it's a different story.

I forgot that detail.  It's been a long time since I played Awakenings.

[Sarah1281]

As far as she knew, Ser Alrik was just 'proposing' this Tranquil solution. Should she have fired him just for proposing it? I'm not willing to make assumptions that she didn't care.

Yes. Or at least found some sort of duty that didn't involve him being with mages. He clearly was not in a state of mind to protect them and that's half of a templar's duty. It's really akin to if he had the 'Drown mages upon discovery' solution and Meredith turned it down and let him go right back to watching mages. Some things you really have to question whether someone should be allowed around another group of people and Alrik wanting to make them all Tranquil should have set off warning lights.

So we are understood she was within her right to do so.

Are you saying that because it might have been legally allowed it doesn't make it monstrous? Try to also remember that the Starkhaven thing was Act 1 while the 'blood mage' thing was Act 3. She was far more insane and monstrous by then.

[LadyBri]

There are templars I do feel sympathy for, but never for Meredith. Yes, we don't really know her well until Act III, but there are grumblings about her throughout the game. Even when you get off the boat the city guard mentions that she is the real power in Kirkwall over the Viscount, which is a warning sign in itself.

I feel bad for the mages under her watch, and for the good templars who struggle beneath her rule. Above all, she is definitely the cause of Kirkwall's troubles, and while it makes for a great game I imagine it would have been a much more peaceful decade without her. Lyrium idol or no, she was grabbing for power and look what happened.

[SupidSeep]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Meredith

A mage has destroyed the Chantry!

Orsino: Don't blame us all for a crime we didn't commit! You can search the Circle. I'll help you.

Meredith: A mage destroyed the chantry. The circle must be annuled!

That seals it for me - I would never side with Meredith because of that.

[Gamer Ftw]

No x1000000000
I want to kill her and bring her back to kill her 50 million more times.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 24 mars 2011 - 11:46 .

[Chiramu]

I don't sympathise with Meredith, but I think she's a great character.
She's normal before Act 3, and then she like flips out during Act 3.

If nothing else, she has a great design .

[Captain Iglo]

I never sympathized with any of the sides. But Meredith was just an awesome character...well right up until the Lyrium Idol stuff. Seriously thats the one thing I dont like about the story..there was no need for that damn Idol in my opinion.

[What?]

After about three playthroughs, I realized Meredith wasn't as bad as I'd initially written her off as. I blamed it on the idol. She was just really taciturn and curt, and pragmatic to an extreme degree. Besides, I honestly thought she had the right idea about mages--almost every single mage in that game turned to blood magic. I wouldn't have trusted them with freedom; it'd be disastrous. You'd just have the Tevinter Imperium all over again; this time, however, ruled by inexperienced mages and their uncontrollable demon pets.

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As far as she knew, Ser Alrik was just 'proposing' this Tranquil solution. Should she have fired him just for proposing it? I'm not willing to make assumptions that she didn't care.

Yes. Or at least found some sort of duty that didn't involve him being with mages. He clearly was not in a state of mind to protect them and that's half of a templar's duty. It's really akin to if he had the 'Drown mages upon discovery' solution and Meredith turned it down and let him go right back to watching mages. Some things you really have to question whether someone should be allowed around another group of people and Alrik wanting to make them all Tranquil should have set off warning lights.

So we are understood she was within her right to do so.

Are you saying that because it might have been legally allowed it doesn't make it monstrous? Try to also remember that the Starkhaven thing was Act 1 while the 'blood mage' thing was Act 3. She was far more insane and monstrous by then.

You're not much less extreme than Meredith if you want to get rid of someone just for suggesting an idea.  You want to lop off the arm before you know there is an infection.  If you did that, then your rule would end up in the exact same state as Merediths.  Your people wouldn't trust you.  "Did you hear that she fired Ser Alrik just for suggesting an idea?" "Did he do anything?"  "No, it was just an idea!"

My response about the Starkhaven mages was because you said she showed no acts of mercy or reason in Act 1 or 2.  This was an example I gave where she did. 

If she was a monster, she would have executed the boy, ignoring the pleas of his family, because she was within her legal right to do so.  She did not.  Whether for political reasons is irrelevant.  In fact, most of the nobles and common people would have supported her.  Nobles hiding runaway mages wouldn't go down well with the common people.  That is why the family gave the boy money and told him to run when he came to the house.  They could not risk their own political fallout for hiding their mage son in the house.  Your Hawke has the option of telling the boy to return to the circle, kill him yourself, or tell him to run.  If your Hawke is afraid of Meredith trying to kill him, then tell him to run.

The common people are afraid of mages.  They are definitely not pro-mage freedom.  The Tevinters magisters keep non mages as slaves, who will eventually be drained of their blood to fuel their power.  You either have magic and use blood magic to rise and become a powerful magister, or you are a slave to a magister.

In my second playthrough, I could see the warnings about the brutal rule of the Tevinters more clearly.  Andraste pushed back the Tevinters, and brought peace.  Circles and Templars were created as a check and balance.  "Magic is to serve man, not rule him."  Mages were forbidden from holding title.  This kept the peace for many centuries.

The Circle/Templar structure in Kirkwall is clearly dysfunctional, and mismanged.  The Circle/Templar structure we saw in Fereldan showed us the way it was supposed to be.  Not every mage in Fereldan hated the Circle.  Wynne loved the Circle, and believed the Circle and the Templars were absolutely necessary.  If she's still alive (probably not), I think she would side with the Templars in the coming war.

Is it oppressive?  Sometimes revolutions get rid of one oppressive rule and trade it for something worse.  Look at the revolutions of Che Guevara and Fidel Castro, for one.  They deposed the hated Batista.  Batista's rule was oppressive and corrupt.  What Castro brought was not so different.  He never brought the free elections and rule for the people as he promised as a revolutionary.

I'm thinking DA2 is setting us up to see what life is like under a Tevinter-like rule.  It's not going to be pretty.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[Vhalkyrie]

VictorianTrash wrote...

After about three playthroughs, I realized Meredith wasn't as bad as I'd initially written her off as. I blamed it on the idol. She was just really taciturn and curt, and pragmatic to an extreme degree. Besides, I honestly thought she had the right idea about mages--almost every single mage in that game turned to blood magic. I wouldn't have trusted them with freedom; it'd be disastrous. You'd just have the Tevinter Imperium all over again; this time, however, ruled by inexperienced mages and their uncontrollable demon pets.

After my first playthrough as pro-mage, I felt betrayed by both Anders and Orsino.  I didn't find Meredith to be quite so bad on second playthrough, I agreed with her and Fenris more.  Until Act 3, when she's gone off the rails.  By Act 3, you can see the frayed ends of all the tragic characters.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 12:10 .

[Kogaion]

that's why DA2 is more complex than DAO...in DAO was easy to choose a side and go with it ...in DA2 i found myself more than a couple of times staring at the dialogue wheel without knowing what to choose and was hard to choose in the end 'cause it was no black and white kind of choice

so i like Meredith and i side with her on my warr playthrough ( with Bethany grey warden ofc ..i'll not fight against that sexy sister)

[Boronion]

I would love to "serve under her"

I think she is a great Character and maybe a real fanatic in mind. But i give most of the guilt for her actions towards the end to the idol.

Modifié par Boronion, 24 mars 2011 - 12:36 .

[Taura-Tierno]

I don't sympathise with Meredith. She was a narrow-minded fanatic, and definitely wouldn't had stopped at being a dictator over Kirkwall. No sympathies there. It was, however, unfortunate that she was influenced by the idol, but she seemed to have the same tendencies even before that, so ...

I do sympathise with the templars as a whole, though. Not all are horrid. Like Thrask, for instance. He'd make a wonderful Knight-Commander, I think. Much like that Knight-Commander in the Ferelden Circle, he seemed pretty fair. More like the cooperative type than a tyrant.

I definitely felt that the Circle is needed, especially when Orsino used Blood Magic at the end. It really did prove that all (or most) mages, even the most devout, can turn to it, in the end. So yeah, the circle needs to exist, but not under someone like Meredith. It shouldn't be a prison, more like ... an organisation that supervises mages, but lets them have freedom.

[Sarah1281]

You're not much less extreme than Meredith if you want to get rid of someone just for suggesting an idea. You want to lop off the arm before you know there is an infection. If you did that, then your rule would end up in the exact same state as Merediths. Your people wouldn't trust you. "Did you hear that she fired Ser Alrik just for suggesting an idea?" "Did he do anything?" "No, it was just an idea!"

Are you kidding? I'm not proposing they kill Alrik or lock him or up or anything and it isn't just 'an idea.' It is refusing to let go of a plan to make every mage tranquil. She knows he wants this and what does she do? SHE LEAVES HIM WITH THE ABILITY TO MAKE MAGES TRANQUIL. If you really think that maybe someone like Alrik who wants all mages made Tranquil still watching over mages and having the powr to kill or make the Tranquil at will deserves to have it proven that he will ignore Meredith and implement his plan on as many people as he can (which he does canonically) before he is no longer trusted with mage safety then she should have had someone (maybe a Seeker? It's kind of their job) monitor him.

I also find it absurd that you think taking templars who prove that they have extreme anti-mage sentiments (so much so that they want to Tranquilize all of them) out of a position where they can enact them on the mages they are supposed to be protecting is being an extremist or even remotely comparable to Meredith. Who do you suggest Alrik should have been dealt with? By doing nothing but turning down his solution? You saw how well that worked in game. He illegally made mages like Karl Tranquil (it doesn't matter if he was planning to escape. He passed his Harrowing so it was illegal) and nothing was done. He was going to rape Ella and make her Tranquil and how likely is it that that's the first time? He certainly didn't act like ti was.

If you ask Sampson why Meredith fired him, he says it's because he was caught carrying letters between mages and their loved ones. In Meredith's mind, it was probably risking an escape plot. Maybe it was a valid concern, maybe he'd been warned, who knows.

As for as Alrik goes...I seriously don't see your point on him. At all. A mage-hating everyone-Tranquil-proposing sadistic rapist can't be fired until he's caught in the act or you're a horrible Meredith-esque extremist?

Say IRL there was a worker at a daycare who proposed that they just drug all the children every day until their parents come pick them up because it would make watching them easier. Even without the daycare owner knowing that they have acted on this, that employee would have been fired in a heartbeat.

If she was a monster, she would have executed the boy, ignoring the pleas of his family, because she was within her legal right to do so. She did not. Whether for political reasons is irrelevant. In fact, most of the nobles and common people would have supported her.

No, it is NOT irrelevant. Say Meredith had decided she was going to adopt Alrik's Tranquil solution. This would be monstrous. Say all mages who came from noble families had their noble relatives pressure or bribe her not to do it to them but she made all the other mages Tranquil. It would STILL be monstrous. You can't use one example of her not killing someone for political reasons as proof she's not a monster and I doubt the nobles would have supportedi it if only because of the implication that if they ever have any relatives in the Gallows then they'd get the same harsh treatment.

[Poison_Berrie]

I'd like to point out, that despite Meredith rejecting the "Tranquil Solution" (can I call Godwin on DA2) she did not oppose the making tranquil of escaping or troublesome (and I don't just reserve that for bloodmages) mages unwillingly after their harrowing.
The "Tranquil Solution" was going to far for her, but she was either okay with forcing tranquil on mages or completely ignorant of the growing number of Tranquil mages.

[GabranthSG]

With regards to Meredith invoking the Rite of Annulment, she did say that she could not stay her hand even if she wished to, because the people will demand blood. Imagine the uproar it would create if the act of blowing up the Chantry, a major religion in Kirkwall, was to be left unpunished. Now of course it wasn't the Circle's fault, but in the eyes of the commoners, a mage is the culprit and this very fact alone would incite acts of violence against mages anyway. Not to mention that she believes Orsino to be harbouring blood mages, which did turn out to be the truth. So I think Meredith believes she was carrying out the will of the people and protecting the city from threats by serving as the people's protectors against evil magic. Understandably so, although the extreme end to which she carried out her duty is debatable.

She is a good person I believe, just a little too extreme in her beliefs. She genuinely believes she is helping her people including protecting the mages from themselves, because she has seen first hand what happens what that guard is let down. Throughout the game, I didn't really think she was all that bad really.

And as for her trying to kill the Champion... Well, maybe with her lyrium-warped mind, she does not believe the Champion to be faultless in the blowing up of that Chantry as the Champion had been protecting apostate mages, which she had been tolerating, and one of those apostate mages happened to be the culprit, which showed that the privilege given to the champion was not a good idea.

Modifié par Dylandl, 24 mars 2011 - 02:58 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...
If you ask Sampson why Meredith fired him, he says it's because he was caught carrying letters between mages and their loved ones. In Meredith's mind, it was probably risking an escape plot. Maybe it was a valid concern, maybe he'd been warned, who knows.

As for as Alrik goes...I seriously don't see your point on him. At all. A mage-hating everyone-Tranquil-proposing sadistic rapist can't be fired until he's caught in the act or you're a horrible Meredith-esque extremist?

If you live in the US, that is exactly how our rule of law works.  You can't imprison someone because of something they might do.  You can only convict someone who has commited a crime, and with evidence.  In fact, this is exactly what Anders was trying to do.  He wanted to find Ser Alrik and gain evidence that Meredith and the templars had this plan for the "Tranquil Solution", then show it to the Divine.  What they found instead was Ser Alrik acted alone.  The Divine and Meredith already knew, and rejected it flatly.  There was no need for anyone to take any further action, because Hawke already eliminated Ser Alrik.

Say IRL there was a worker at a daycare who proposed that they just drug all the children every day until their parents come pick them up because it would make watching them easier. Even without the daycare owner knowing that they have acted on this, that employee would have been fired in a heartbeat.

Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution plan was in response to a blood mage plot to implant demons inside templars.  Your example falls flat here.  Mages are not innocent, helpless children.  Neither are Templars supposed to be their wards.  They are supposed to work together.

If she was a monster, she would have executed the boy, ignoring the pleas of his family, because she was within her legal right to do so. She did not. Whether for political reasons is irrelevant. In fact, most of the nobles and common people would have supported her.

No, it is NOT irrelevant. Say Meredith had decided she was going to adopt Alrik's Tranquil solution. This would be monstrous. Say all mages who came from noble families had their noble relatives pressure or bribe her not to do it to them but she made all the other mages Tranquil. It would STILL be monstrous. You can't use one example of her not killing someone for political reasons as proof she's not a monster and I doubt the nobles would have supportedi it if only because of the implication that if they ever have any relatives in the Gallows then they'd get the same harsh treatment.

Meredith did not accept Ser Alrik's solution.  Period.  You can't say she is a monster for something she didn't do, or conjecture that she's a monster because she could have done it.  Of course she would have been a monster if she supported Ser Alrik.  She did not.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 03:21 .