Aller au contenu

Photo

Meredith - anyone sympathise with her?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
122 réponses à ce sujet

#51
Vhalkyrie

Vhalkyrie
  • Members
  • 1 917 messages

Poison_Berrie wrote...

I'd like to point out, that despite Meredith rejecting the "Tranquil Solution" (can I call Godwin on DA2) she did not oppose the making tranquil of escaping or troublesome (and I don't just reserve that for bloodmages) mages unwillingly after their harrowing.
The "Tranquil Solution" was going to far for her, but she was either okay with forcing tranquil on mages or completely ignorant of the growing number of Tranquil mages.


Remember Ser Alrik proposed the Tranquil Solution because blood mages were implanting demons inside of Templars in order to cause chaos within the ranks.  The Divine and Meredith both rejected it.  Ser Alrik acted without their approval, going behind their backs.  Not sure where you are concluding that she was ok with forcing tranquil on mages, when the letter to Ser Alrik clearly states she did not.

#52
Tainan7509

Tainan7509
  • Members
  • 222 messages
I only feel sympathies to Hawke. That's all i can tell after 3 play through.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 24 mars 2011 - 03:14 .


#53
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

dantares83 wrote...

Meredith - anyone sympathise with her?


No.

The Templars? Yes, absolutely. Not enough to make me side with them, though, because Meredith is bat**** insane.

The game forces us to side with either a criminally stupid idiot, or a criminally insane pyschopath. It's great.

:police:

#54
Sherbet Lemon

Sherbet Lemon
  • Members
  • 724 messages

Tainan7509 wrote...

I only feel sympathies to Hawke. That's all i can tell after 3 play through.


That's pretty much how  I felt.  Poor Hawke really went through the ringer.  Meredith was an interesting character and I saw where she was coming from, but no sympathy for her.  Nope, nope.

#55
Tainan7509

Tainan7509
  • Members
  • 222 messages

Village Idiot wrote...

Tainan7509 wrote...

I only feel sympathies to Hawke. That's all i can tell after 3 play through.


That's pretty much how  I felt.  Poor Hawke really went through the ringer.  Meredith was an interesting character and I saw where she was coming from, but no sympathy for her.  Nope, nope.

Yeah and now chantry seeker is coming after her ass (well my Female Hawke) i feel more sorry for her. Losing entire family is very sad compare to the conflicts between templar and mage and now more people coming after her. this is just suck..

#56
PassFail

PassFail
  • Members
  • 3 messages
I like what they did with Meredith's character. In different times, that is before the Fifth Blight and whatnot, she was probably an okay Knight-Commander. My impression from various dialogues is that Meredith's problem in fanaticism. She's seen the worst that occur in a mage outside the Circle, and now sees the worst possible scenario for every mage and who knows how many templars she has lost to blood mages before Hawke arrives in the city.

Of course, all of my sympathy goes to Cullen though. Two different circles, and two rights of annulment invoked. Poor man.:unsure:

Modifié par PassFail, 24 mars 2011 - 03:30 .


#57
Erani

Erani
  • Members
  • 1 535 messages
Not really...I couldn't wait to kill her.Image IPB

#58
dantares83

dantares83
  • Members
  • 1 140 messages
but she did repent a bit while u r fighting her... this only happened if u sided with the mages.. she was saying "what if all these were madness" but then the idol took over n she became mad again..

morale of the story... either dun collect strange idols (Meredith) or dun push be an extremist (Orisino)...

#59
Vhalkyrie

Vhalkyrie
  • Members
  • 1 917 messages

dantares83 wrote...

but she did repent a bit while u r fighting her... this only happened if u sided with the mages.. she was saying "what if all these were madness" but then the idol took over n she became mad again..

morale of the story... either dun collect strange idols (Meredith) or dun push be an extremist (Orisino)...


She says it if you side with the Templars too.

#60
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 277 messages

If you live in the US, that is exactly how our rule of law works. You can't imprison someone because of something they might do. You can only convict someone who has commited a crime, and with evidence. In fact, this is exactly what Anders was trying to do. He wanted to find Ser Alrik and gain evidence that Meredith and the templars had this plan for the "Tranquil Solution", then show it to the Divine. What they found instead was Ser Alrik acted alone. The Divine and Meredith already knew, and rejected it flatly. There was no need for anyone to take any further action, because Hawke already eliminated Ser Alrik.

Who is talking about imprisoning anyone. I am not saying that for proposing the Tranquil Solution Alrik should have been arrested ro killed. I am saying that for holding the belief that all mages should be made Tranquil, he should not have been in a position to make people Tranquil as it is more than likely he is going to abuse that power. I am saying that if he wasn't fired, he should have been given different responsibilities. I'm saying that at the very least Meredith should have taken his plan as a warning sign and had someone look into whether or not he was abusing his power. If she had, she would have seen him making mages Tranquil who had passed their Harrowing and raping mages. THAT is a crime.

Ser Alrik's Tranquil Solution plan was in response to a blood mage plot to implant demons inside templars. Your example falls flat here. Mages are not innocent, helpless children. Neither are Templars supposed to be their wards. They are supposed to work together.

Did it say that? I don't think it did. This is a conjecture about why Alrik proposed it. My example was not meant to liken mages to innocent helpless children. It was to point out that IRL it is not considered extremism to fire someone for 'just an idea' if that idea involves something like harming the people under their care. The templars are supposed to guard the mages. Their job is to keep non-mages safe from mages, mages safe from non-mages, and mages safe from each other and demons.

Meredith did not accept Ser Alrik's solution. Period. You can't say she is a monster for something she didn't do, or conjecture that she's a monster because she could have done it. Of course she would have been a monster if she supported Ser Alrik. She did not.

Are you deliberatly twisting my words? I said SAY SHE HAD. I did not say "I think she would have in Act 3" or anything like that. You said that if Meredith chose to spare a mage with noble relations a harsh treatment for political reasons, it would not make her a monster. I say that if she only held back for political reasons then it does not prove anything. THAT is why I used the Tranquil Solution as an example.

Let me try again. Orsino bitterly wonders why they don't just drown all mages at birth. Say that it was possible to detect mages at birth. Keep in mind that it is not actually possible to do so. Say Meredith instituted a policy that said that all mages were to be drowned at birth. Keep in mind that I am not saying that Meredith has done this or would do this. This is just a hypothetical. In fact, if using Meredith's name makes the fact that I am not saying Meredith would do this too difficult to accept then let's talk about Knight-Commander Bob. If Knight-Commander Bob decided to have all mages drowned at birth but agreed to spare the mage-babies of powerful nobles, Bob would still be a monster. Bob would only be sparing the babies for political reasons and is also murdering many other innocent babies. Please also note that I am not comparing grown-up mages to innocent babies. It's just an example of how making exceptions to monstrous acts for political reasons still makes you a monster.

#61
Estelle019230

Estelle019230
  • Members
  • 89 messages
Not at all.  Meredith is crazy.  Granted, Anders's stupid decision to blow up the Chantry didn't help her craziness, but seriously, that was his fault, not all of the mages' faults.  Her decision to kill all the mages was too extreme for me to find any sympathy with her.

#62
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 277 messages

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Poison_Berrie wrote...

I'd like to point out, that despite Meredith rejecting the "Tranquil Solution" (can I call Godwin on DA2) she did not oppose the making tranquil of escaping or troublesome (and I don't just reserve that for bloodmages) mages unwillingly after their harrowing.
The "Tranquil Solution" was going to far for her, but she was either okay with forcing tranquil on mages or completely ignorant of the growing number of Tranquil mages.


Remember Ser Alrik proposed the Tranquil Solution because blood mages were implanting demons inside of Templars in order to cause chaos within the ranks.  The Divine and Meredith both rejected it.  Ser Alrik acted without their approval, going behind their backs.  Not sure where you are concluding that she was ok with forcing tranquil on mages, when the letter to Ser Alrik clearly states she did not.

The point is: Alrik went ahead with his 'Tranquil Solution' even though the Divine and Meredith turned him down. Logically, there are two possibilities.

A) Meredith knew what Alrik was doing and did not stop him.
B) Meredith did not know.

Can we agree on that? She either knew or she didn't? 

Now let's look at the possibilities. If she knew then she: 
A) Approved of his solution but could not publicly support it for whatever reason
or
B) Did not care enough to stop him.

If she knew, I don't see any other explanations for not stopping him. She either secretly endorsed it or didn't care.

If she did not know then what does that mean? It MUST mean that no one is keeping track of who gets made Tranquil or else the fact that Harrowed mages are being made Tranquil instead of killed which flies in the face of Chantry law would be noticed. This is horrible management. Even if there are too many mages for Meredith to keep track of personally, there should still be a record kept to stop ANYONE from abusing their power. Maybe have templars have to get approval to make mages Tranquil and looking into new unapproved Tranquil who just show up.

It also means that when Meredith sees dangerous extremism in her templars (no matter what you think their reasons are and you can't deny she knew since she personally turned it down) she makes no attempt to even investigate how far this runs and just expects a no will suffice and that he will be a model templar in the future...which is horrible management.

#63
Beerfish

Beerfish
  • Members
  • 23 849 messages
She was crazy and corrupted by the sword but the mages (Orsino, Anders, just about every other one in the game), did their absolute best to make her look correct and reasonable.

#64
mesmerizedish

mesmerizedish
  • Members
  • 7 776 messages

Beerfish wrote...

She was crazy and corrupted by the sword but the mages (Orsino, Anders, just about every other one in the game), did their absolute best to make her look correct and reasonable.


This. Mages are idiots, templars are psychos. That's the moral I took away from the story.

#65
Vhalkyrie

Vhalkyrie
  • Members
  • 1 917 messages

Sarah1281 wrote...
The point is: Alrik went ahead with his 'Tranquil Solution' even though the Divine and Meredith turned him down. Logically, there are two possibilities.

A) Meredith knew what Alrik was doing and did not stop him.
B) Meredith did not know.

Can we agree on that? She either knew or she didn't? 

Now let's look at the possibilities. If she knew then she: 
A) Approved of his solution but could not publicly support it for whatever reason
or
B) Did not care enough to stop him.

If she knew, I don't see any other explanations for not stopping him. She either secretly endorsed it or didn't care.

If she did not know then what does that mean? It MUST mean that no one is keeping track of who gets made Tranquil or else the fact that Harrowed mages are being made Tranquil instead of killed which flies in the face of Chantry law would be noticed. This is horrible management. Even if there are too many mages for Meredith to keep track of personally, there should still be a record kept to stop ANYONE from abusing their power. Maybe have templars have to get approval to make mages Tranquil and looking into new unapproved Tranquil who just show up.

It also means that when Meredith sees dangerous extremism in her templars (no matter what you think their reasons are and you can't deny she knew since she personally turned it down) she makes no attempt to even investigate how far this runs and just expects a no will suffice and that he will be a model templar in the future...which is horrible management.


Meredith saw blood mages 'conspiracies' everywhere.  You see the 'Tranquil Solution' everywhere. No idea where you get the idea she 'knew' Ser Alrik was continuing with his plan.  Pure conjecture.  If you went to the Grand Cleric with your claims, she would certainly ask for proof.  After Ser Alrik is dead, there are no more mysterious Tranquils.  It is never mentioned or discussed again.  It died with him.

As far as keeping track of Tranquils, that would be the responsibility of the mages, not the Templars.  So I agree with you there.  Orsino should have a record of the Tranquils and the sudden disappearance of harrowed mages.  He did not order an investigation.  He did not notice that something was wrong and report it to Meredith.  It was the mage underground that took notice and did something.  So I am in complete agreement with you about bad management and book keeping part - except on Orsino's part.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 05:47 .


#66
GabranthSG

GabranthSG
  • Members
  • 39 messages
About the tranquil solution issue.. if I may offer my 2 cents here. There could be another possible scenario as to why mages were still being made Tranquil even though the proposal for the Tranquil solution was rejected. We all know that Meredith is extremely prejudiced against mages. At the end of the day, if you were a corrupt templar like Ser Alric, all you had to do was to spin up a credible story as to why a certain mage deserved to be made Tranquil, such as "That mage is a bloodmage!" and it would be done, with or without the Tranquil solution being approved. Because think about it, judging by Meredith's mindset, whose word is she more likely to take as the truth, the templar's or the mage's? She is not necessarily condoning Ser Alric's actions. I agree that she is more of an ineffectual leader as she is much more ready to see the mage as a villain, compared to the templar and that is why corrupt templars can do as they please under her reign. Because the court of law in Kirkwall slants heavily towards favoring the templars.

But she still rejects blatantly brutal proposals such as the Tranquil solution and is shown to be merciful from time to time so I believe she is not evil, just extremist in her beliefs.

#67
errant_knight

errant_knight
  • Members
  • 8 256 messages
I tend to agree with her point of view, but not what she does about it. The last straw was deciding to annul the circle over the bombing of the Chantry when she not only knew they didn't do it, but had the perpetrator right there, ready to be brought to justice. I actually wanted to side with the templars by that point, mage or not, but she made it impossible. Still, given what I learned about Kirkwall and the way the majority of the mages operated there, made me think she wasn't entirely wrong.

#68
Vhalkyrie

Vhalkyrie
  • Members
  • 1 917 messages

Dylandl wrote...

About the tranquil solution issue.. if I may offer my 2 cents here. There could be another possible scenario as to why mages were still being made Tranquil even though the proposal for the Tranquil solution was rejected. We all know that Meredith is extremely prejudiced against mages. At the end of the day, if you were a corrupt templar like Ser Alric, all you had to do was to spin up a credible story as to why a certain mage deserved to be made Tranquil, such as "That mage is a bloodmage!" and it would be done, with or without the Tranquil solution being approved. Because think about it, judging by Meredith's mindset, whose word is she more likely to take as the truth, the templar's or the mage's? She is not necessarily condoning Ser Alric's actions. I agree that she is more of an ineffectual leader as she is much more ready to see the mage as a villain, compared to the templar and that is why corrupt templars can do as they please under her reign. Because the court of law in Kirkwall slants heavily towards favoring the templars.

But she still rejects blatantly brutal proposals such as the Tranquil solution and is shown to be merciful from time to time so I believe she is not evil, just extremist in her beliefs.


It would be out of character.  I haven't seen any evidence of Meredith doing anything outside of what the law allows.  Chantry law says a mage cannot be made tranquil after they pass their harrowing.  Meredith is a very strong lawful character. In D&D terms, I'd say she was a strong Lawful Neutral.  She operates within the law to an extreme degree.  She may not be a roses and bunnies likeable character, but I simply cannot agree that she would step outside the law.  If she knew Ser Alrik was continuing, she would be honor bound to stop him.  If she was in any way supporting Ser Alrik's plan after they agreed not to, the Grand Cleric would be within her authority to have Meredith stripped of command.  That's simply not a move Meredith would make.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 05:55 .


#69
Poison_Berrie

Poison_Berrie
  • Members
  • 2 205 messages

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Remember Ser Alrik proposed the Tranquil Solution because blood mages were implanting demons inside of Templars in order to cause chaos within the ranks.  The Divine and Meredith both rejected it.  Ser Alrik acted without their approval, going behind their backs.  Not sure where you are concluding that she was ok with forcing tranquil on mages, when the letter to Ser Alrik clearly states she did not.

My quote is quite clear on this. The Tranquil Solution is about turning all mages everywhere Tranquil at the first sign of being a mage. That is something that even Meredith thinks goes to far. However a large number of mages is still being turned into Tanquil. There's comments abound about that. 
So either see doesn't notice this influx of Tranquil or she allows it in certain cases.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 24 mars 2011 - 06:04 .


#70
Beerfish

Beerfish
  • Members
  • 23 849 messages

errant_knight wrote...

I tend to agree with her point of view, but not what she does about it. The last straw was deciding to annul the circle over the bombing of the Chantry when she not only knew they didn't do it, but had the perpetrator right there, ready to be brought to justice. I actually wanted to side with the templars by that point, mage or not, but she made it impossible. Still, given what I learned about Kirkwall and the way the majority of the mages operated there, made me think she wasn't entirely wrong.


Well I think the Chantry thing was just the cherry on the top as far as annulemnt goes.  It certainly was not reason enough of itself perhaps but by that time I'd say she could be forgiven for wanting to go ballistic on all mages.  There was plenty of evidence of mages doing the things she accused them of doing before hand and of course once Orsino went off the deep end there couldn't be much doubt that if there was ever a time to go for annulment it was in this case.

Heck in DAO they wanted to go for annulement just over the mage tower incident.  Although the ending had some ups and downs there is no question BioWare did a fine job of making it a very tough decision no matter who was with you and no matter what your class was.

#71
Vhalkyrie

Vhalkyrie
  • Members
  • 1 917 messages

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Remember Ser Alrik proposed the Tranquil Solution because blood mages were implanting demons inside of Templars in order to cause chaos within the ranks.  The Divine and Meredith both rejected it.  Ser Alrik acted without their approval, going behind their backs.  Not sure where you are concluding that she was ok with forcing tranquil on mages, when the letter to Ser Alrik clearly states she did not.

My quote is quite clear on this. The Tranquil Solution is about turning all mages everywhere Tranquil at the first sign of being a mage. That is something that even Meredith thinks goes to far. However a large number of mages is still being turned into Tanquil. There's comments abound about that. 
So either see doesn't notice this influx of Tranquil or see allows it in certain cases.


Orsino is supposed to be First Enchanter.  Should he have been the first to notice harrowed mages suddenly turned tranquil?  Is Orsino also a co-conspirator because he either didn't notice, or allowed it in certain cases?  If you damn Meredith, you also have to damn Orsino.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 06:04 .


#72
Poison_Berrie

Poison_Berrie
  • Members
  • 2 205 messages

Vhalkyrie wrote...
Orsino is supposed to be First Enchanter.  Should he have been the first to notice harrowed mages suddenly turned tranquil?  Is Orsino also a co-conspirator because he either didn't notice, or allowed it in certain cases?  If you damn Meredith, you also have to damn Orsino.

He is always going on about the draconic measures and injustice of Meredith isn't he. I think the bigger issue is that the Grand-cleric would have to be aware of it. If Orsino had a problem with it she would be the only one he could go to. 
In the end the first enchanter has no power over the Templars, but the templars have power over any mage. Not giving him a pardon, but without those two he's got little footing aside from an outright rebellion. 

There's three possibilities.
1) There are no mages being forced into Tranquility after their Harrowing. All the talking is nothing more than a rumor.
2)  Meredith and Orsino are terrible administrators and don't notice an increase in Tranquils and decrease in harrowed mages.
3) They know and their fine with it/powerless to do anything about it.

Number 1 however plausible seems the least likely considering Anders reqruitment quest.

#73
KenKenpachi

KenKenpachi
  • Members
  • 5 768 messages
I sided with the Templars and loved pissing Meredith off by saving those first three mages. I was hoping to get rid of her from the first time I seen her. So no. If not for that ****** Anders wouldn't be in this mess.

#74
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 277 messages
I do NOT see the TS everywhere. I addressed the possibility of her knowing and not knowing. I also specifically said - which you addressed - that in the event that she did not know she is not keeping track of who her people make Tranquil. Sure the mages should keep track but since the templars

#75
Sarah1281

Sarah1281
  • Members
  • 15 277 messages
Are the ones doing it, they should also know to prevent abuses. Alrik was raping mages and illegally tranquilizing mages. If Meredith didn't know, She should have. Someone should have done something before Hawke.