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[Herr Uhl]

I'd probably become as paranoid with demons crawling all over the city.

[Heather Cline]

I found her to be a sympathetic character in the game. However she took her experiences as a child and took them too far in her beliefs.

As for running away from the circle being a crime punishable by death that is not true. In Awakenings Anders has run from the circle more than once and been dragged back, locked away and what not but not killed or turned Tranquil. Blood Magic is a crime punishable by death that is the crime that you refer to Vhalkyrie.

Still back on topic, Meredith if she hadn't gone all fanatical kill the mages I probably would have sympathized with her more but I don't. As for Orsino, he is also a sympathetic character in his own right. Yes he enabled Quentin to do what he did, but the same can be said for Meredith and her beliefs. Thing is you have two sides to the same coin and thus both are sympathetic in their own ways it just depends on who you sympathize with more.

[mesmerizedish]

SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Going crazy because of that idol can't have been easy...but no. She goes too, too far for me to sympathize with her. In many ways she's worse than Loghain. Her attitude towards mages is psychotic.

No, Loghain's worse. Meredith actually has something of an excuse for being a psycho-****. Loghain's issue is completely his own.

[Sarah1281]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

SilverMoonDragon wrote...

Going crazy because of that idol can't have been easy...but no. She goes too, too far for me to sympathize with her. In many ways she's worse than Loghain. Her attitude towards mages is psychotic.

No, Loghain's worse. Meredith actually has something of an excuse for being a psycho-****. Loghain's issue is completely his own.

So the fact that even in DA2 there are those in Orlais who are still trying to reclaim Ferelden doesn't give Loghain "something of an excuse for being a pyscho-ass"? Teagan thinks war is coming and his sister-in-law is an Orlesian noblewoman.

[mesmerizedish]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So the fact that even in DA2 there are those in Orlais who are still trying to reclaim Ferelden doesn't give Loghain "something of an excuse for being a pyscho-ass"? Teagan thinks war is coming and his sister-in-law is an Orlesian noblewoman.

Loghain's insanity didn't stem from his distrust of Orlais. It was the specific instances of "Orlesian plots" that were all 100% false that make him a crackpot.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 24 mars 2011 - 08:23 .

[Sarah1281]

It MIGHT be wrong (we don't know what would have happened had Loghain done differently, after all) be being wrong about mistaken about Orlais' intentions doesn't mean he's crazy.

[raziel1980]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I'd probably become as paranoid with demons crawling all over the city.

This.

But, to play devil's advocate on this, I can understand her plight n reasoning...but the mere fact that she condemns the ENTIRE circle for the idiocy of one mage... is just not right. It basically proves the point of what various people tell you (Hawke) throughout the act about her that she is just looking for a reason to deal with the 'mage' situation...which I'm not sure I can blame her after the qunari fiasco from just 3 yrs prior.

[mesmerizedish]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It MIGHT be wrong (we don't know what would have happened had Loghain done differently, after all) be being wrong about mistaken about Orlais' intentions doesn't mean he's crazy.

Betraying a king he was sworn to protect, intentionally causing the slaughter of thousands of people, imprisoning his own daughter, all for the sake of shadows? Yeah, that's kind of the definition of crazy

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Are the ones doing it, they should also know to prevent abuses. Alrik was raping mages and illegally tranquilizing mages. If Meredith didn't know, She should have. Someone should have done something before Hawke.

Agreed.  But someone needed to step forward.  A fellow Templar or even a mage, perhaps?  At my work place, if we know a coworker is doing something unethical or illegal, we are required to come forward.  In every case, Cullen has been like, "I have to tell Meredith about this" whether it was good or bad.  If Cullen was aware, he would definitely had gone to Meredith.  Cullen is second in command.  If he didn't know, then I'm willing to bet that Ser Alrik's plan was very well hidden.  When you get the quest about mages being made Tranquil, it is only rumors.  Anders asks you to help him find proof.

Again, I think it unfair to place this solely on Meredith.  What about Orsino?  Why wasn't he aware?  I could make the same statement.  If he didn't know, he should have.  It was his mages disappearing and being made Tranquil.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 08:59 .

[Sarah1281]

I just don't think it's fair to hold Orsino accountable for every blood mage in the Circle when we only have proof he was enabling Quentin and then turn around and say that Meredith can't possibly keep track of her templars.

[dragonflight288]

I'm going to offer my opinion on the whole Tranquil Solution. We all admit that tranquilizing mages who passed their harrowing is illegal. We all agree that rape is a crime. And I'm pretty dang sure we all agree that Alrik has been doing both for a long time (roughly three years based off of Karl). We also know that both the Divine and Meredith rejected his solution-which was thought up because of the demons in the templar recruits.

But I would like to point out, that Karl was made tranquil BEFORE that plot was uncovered by Hawke. I believe that he was still doing it before the blood mages were uncovered, but now he had something to justify the solution with. Anders said that there were new tranquil every single day in the Gallows, and a letter from Carver (should he join the templars) says that he is hearing templars (emphasis on the plural here) have heretical solutions that he hopes never comes to pass. I'm guess the Tranquil solution was one such proposition. But if Carver is to be believed, Alrik was not the only Templar in the order who had some idea that was likely rejected. I can't speak more about them as this is mere conjecture. But I think that since Carver has to write a letter to voice his concerns and he is only a recruit just gaining his knighthood, then there is no doubt that Meredith is well aware of what's happening.

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm going to offer my opinion on the whole Tranquil Solution. We all admit that tranquilizing mages who passed their harrowing is illegal. We all agree that rape is a crime. And I'm pretty dang sure we all agree that Alrik has been doing both for a long time (roughly three years based off of Karl). We also know that both the Divine and Meredith rejected his solution-which was thought up because of the demons in the templar recruits.

But I would like to point out, that Karl was made tranquil BEFORE that plot was uncovered by Hawke. I believe that he was still doing it before the blood mages were uncovered, but now he had something to justify the solution with. Anders said that there were new tranquil every single day in the Gallows, and a letter from Carver (should he join the templars) says that he is hearing templars (emphasis on the plural here) have heretical solutions that he hopes never comes to pass. I'm guess the Tranquil solution was one such proposition. But if Carver is to be believed, Alrik was not the only Templar in the order who had some idea that was likely rejected. I can't speak more about them as this is mere conjecture. But I think that since Carver has to write a letter to voice his concerns and he is only a recruit just gaining his knighthood, then there is no doubt that Meredith is well aware of what's happening.

Good points.  What of Orsino?  For three years he doesn't know mages are disappearing?  Being made Tranquil?

[Volpes]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I quite like Meredith, actually. Up until the whole ridiculous "OMG LYRIUM IDOL!" plot twist, which I didn't particularly care for.

But she is a very tragic character.

"Plot twist" is a little generous.  First, Cassandra yells at Varric that you must have known what you would find in the Deep Roads and insinuates that you intentionally cause the events of the game.  I can't find the exact quote, but Bartrand says he sold it to a woman and implies that she was strong/powerful/rich/something.  Finally, the end of the game is called The Last Straw.  You know it is the end of the game, and you know that the idol still hasn't shown itself.  I was well prepared for it.

[dragonflight288]

Vhalyrie

Good points. What of Orsino? For three years he doesn't know mages are disappearing? Being made Tranquil?

He shares equal blame with Meredith on this issue. I haven't yet played a warrior or rogue, so I haven't had the opportunity to see whatever letters Bethany may send from the circle, but for this instance I'm going to compare Irving and Orsino together as first enchanters.

Starting with Irving-when we show up at the circle and they're having their Uldred problems, when we make it to Irving's office there is a letter/journal entry titled Irving's mistake. He notes the intricacies of the politics and how much the apprentices are actually manipulated by the fraternities of enchanters. He also notes how Uldred has a knack for tracking down apprentices who may be partial to blood magic. And he encourages it.

This shows that Irving is remarkably informed about the goings on at the Circle, and has his finger in the pies of all the fraternities. This in turn would mean that he is knowledgeable about all the mages. If not all the mages, then at least all the enchanters and senior enchanters. He knows so many people that if anything happened to any of them, it would be kind of obvious to him.

Now moving onto Orsino. We know he is the first enchanter of Kirkwall. That means he's been in the fraternities game and has a strong enough standing with all the other senior enchanters in order to be selected as the new first enchanter. By reading the hierarchy of the circle, it outright states that the first is chosen from among the senior enchanters.

So in conjecture, Orsino has been climbing the ranks, is probably a libertarian (I'm just guessing on that one) and is also informed (Quentin isn't part of the Circle but Orsino was helping him out, or covering him, yet they had to know each other from somewhere). It is likely he is just as informed about his circle as Irving is about his.

Therefore, I conclude that the whole Tranquil solution originated with Ser Alrik, his actions were overlooked by both Orsino and Meredith. The two likely had very different motivations for it. Meredith was probably her mage paranoia and Orsino was likely covering the butts of Quentin or other researchers.

Those are my overall conclusions anyway.

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Vhalkyrie

Good points. What of Orsino? For three years he doesn't know mages are disappearing? Being made Tranquil?

He shares equal blame with Meredith on this issue. I haven't yet played a warrior or rogue, so I haven't had the opportunity to see whatever letters Bethany may send from the circle, but for this instance I'm going to compare Irving and Orsino together as first enchanters.

Starting with Irving-when we show up at the circle and they're having their Uldred problems, when we make it to Irving's office there is a letter/journal entry titled Irving's mistake. He notes the intricacies of the politics and how much the apprentices are actually manipulated by the fraternities of enchanters. He also notes how Uldred has a knack for tracking down apprentices who may be partial to blood magic. And he encourages it.

This shows that Irving is remarkably informed about the goings on at the Circle, and has his finger in the pies of all the fraternities. This in turn would mean that he is knowledgeable about all the mages. If not all the mages, then at least all the enchanters and senior enchanters. He knows so many people that if anything happened to any of them, it would be kind of obvious to him.

Now moving onto Orsino. We know he is the first enchanter of Kirkwall. That means he's been in the fraternities game and has a strong enough standing with all the other senior enchanters in order to be selected as the new first enchanter. By reading the hierarchy of the circle, it outright states that the first is chosen from among the senior enchanters.

So in conjecture, Orsino has been climbing the ranks, is probably a libertarian (I'm just guessing on that one) and is also informed (Quentin isn't part of the Circle but Orsino was helping him out, or covering him, yet they had to know each other from somewhere). It is likely he is just as informed about his circle as Irving is about his.

Therefore, I conclude that the whole Tranquil solution originated with Ser Alrik, his actions were overlooked by both Orsino and Meredith. The two likely had very different motivations for it. Meredith was probably her mage paranoia and Orsino was likely covering the butts of Quentin or other researchers.

Those are my overall conclusions anyway.

My Carver was a Grey Warden, so I never saw that letter.  I can fill you in on Bethany in the Circle.  She writes that most of the Templars are polite, and they are just doing their jobs.  But some of them hold extreme views, especially Ser Alrik.

So Bethany is in the Circle, right under the nose of Orsino being harassed by Ser Alrik.  Was Orsino aware? Should have been, yes?

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[dragonflight288]

Orsino should have been aware. Bethany is a skilled mage who doesn't need to study as an apprentice. She just isn't being gradually introduced to the fraternities and has her own opinions that may differ entirely. And I heard she does start teaching apprentices.

Since she is such a unique case, she would likely garner a lot of attention from mage and templar alike because she had stayed away from the Circle for so long. Orsino would know of her.

So. As I said earlier, Orsino shares blame with Meredith on this issue. Alrik is the criminal, but both Meredith and Orsino allow it to happen.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 mars 2011 - 09:53 .

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Orsino should have been aware. Bethany is a skilled mage who doesn't need to study as an apprentice. She just isn't being gradually introduced to the fraternities and has her own opinions that may differ entirely. And I heard she does start teaching apprentices.

Since she is such a unique case, she would likely garner a lot of attention from mage and templar alike because she had stayed away from the Circle for so long. Orsino would know of her.

So. As I said earlier, Orsino shares blame with Meredith on this issue. Alrik is the criminal, but both Meredith and Orsino allow it to happen.

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Meredith being aware he was continuing his plan, despite officially being told not to.  I thought the point of the Tranquil Solution quest was to show that Meredith may be difficult to work with, but she was not so dishonorable as to condone such extreme, and illegal, measures.  Anders was surprised himself.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[Sarah1281]

So Bethany is in the Circle, right under the nose of Orsino being harassed by Ser Alrik. Was Orsino aware? Should have been, yes?

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Meredith being aware he was continuing his plan, despite officially being told not to. I thought the point of the Tranquil Solution quest was to show that Meredith may be difficult to work with, but she was not so unhonorable as to condone such action.

So, again, Orsino should have been aware if Bethany was having problems but it's perfectly acceptable for Meredith to be ignorant of Alrik's actions?

[dragonflight288]

Condoning an action may not mean allowing it to happen. I simply believe that she knew Alrik was a menace and was doing something. He was being secretive about it. Meredith never investigated him, or if she did then Hawke didn't see it as he/she was acting on Ander's suspicions. And I'm pretty sure that at this stage in the game, if Meredith knew about the raping she would come down hard on him.

But I see no evidence of her actually investigating him after his solution had been denied.

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Bethany is in the Circle, right under the nose of Orsino being harassed by Ser Alrik. Was Orsino aware? Should have been, yes?

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Meredith being aware he was continuing his plan, despite officially being told not to. I thought the point of the Tranquil Solution quest was to show that Meredith may be difficult to work with, but she was not so unhonorable as to condone such action.

So, again, Orsino should have been aware if Bethany was having problems but it's perfectly acceptable for Meredith to be ignorant of Alrik's actions?

Sigh.  So Orsino should have been aware and confronted Meredith.  Beat down her door.  If she did nothing, then go to the Grand Cleric.  The welfare of his mages are his direct responsibility.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 10:00 .

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Condoning an action may not mean allowing it to happen. I simply believe that she knew Alrik was a menace and was doing something. He was being secretive about it. Meredith never investigated him, or if she did then Hawke didn't see it as he/she was acting on Ander's suspicions. And I'm pretty sure that at this stage in the game, if Meredith knew about the raping she would come down hard on him.

But I see no evidence of her actually investigating him after his solution had been denied.

Nor did Cullen.  I think we can all agree without ambiguity that if Cullen knew, he would have done something.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 10:04 .

[Sarah1281]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Bethany is in the Circle, right under the nose of Orsino being harassed by Ser Alrik. Was Orsino aware? Should have been, yes?

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Meredith being aware he was continuing his plan, despite officially being told not to. I thought the point of the Tranquil Solution quest was to show that Meredith may be difficult to work with, but she was not so unhonorable as to condone such action.

So, again, Orsino should have been aware if Bethany was having problems but it's perfectly acceptable for Meredith to be ignorant of Alrik's actions?

Sigh.  So Orsino should have been aware and confronted Meredith.  Beat down her door.  If she did nothing, then go to the Grand Cleric.  The welfare of his mages are his direct responsibility.

Again, I don't see why you're placing all of the responsibility on Orsino and none on Meredith. Yes, Orsino should have said something. Does this mean that Meredith had no obligation to know what abuses her templars were committing? What, exactly, is the job of the Knight-Commander if it's not to keep order among her templars? 

Please keep in mind, saying that Meredith should have done something does NOT mean that Orsino was perfect.

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So Bethany is in the Circle, right under the nose of Orsino being harassed by Ser Alrik. Was Orsino aware? Should have been, yes?

I'll agree to disagree on the point of Meredith being aware he was continuing his plan, despite officially being told not to. I thought the point of the Tranquil Solution quest was to show that Meredith may be difficult to work with, but she was not so unhonorable as to condone such action.

So, again, Orsino should have been aware if Bethany was having problems but it's perfectly acceptable for Meredith to be ignorant of Alrik's actions?

Sigh.  So Orsino should have been aware and confronted Meredith.  Beat down her door.  If she did nothing, then go to the Grand Cleric.  The welfare of his mages are his direct responsibility.

Again, I don't see why you're placing all of the responsibility on Orsino and none on Meredith. Yes, Orsino should have said something. Does this mean that Meredith had no obligation to know what abuses her templars were committing? What, exactly, is the job of the Knight-Commander if it's not to keep order among her templars? 

Please keep in mind, saying that Meredith should have done something does NOT mean that Orsino was perfect.

Well in Meredith's case, there is proof she condemned the action.  There is no proof on Orsino's part.  In fact, at the end we learn that Orsino was in fact covering up abuses done by mages in the form of enabling Quentin's research.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 10:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Well in Meredith's case, there is proof she condemned the action. There is no proof on Orsino's part. In fact, at the end we learn that Orsino was in fact covering up abuses done by his mages in the form of enabling Quentin's research.

I think it should be pretty obvious that if Orsino was aware of Alrik's proposed Tranquil Solution he'd be even more against it than Meredith. It doesn't really matter if he was aware or not since it was ultimately refused.

If Orsino should have known that his mages were being abused by Meredith's templars, why shouldn't Meredith have had equal responsibility to know that her templars were abusing Orsino's mages?