122 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Again, I don't see why you're placing all of the responsibility on Orsino and none on Meredith. Yes, Orsino should have said something. Does this mean that Meredith had no obligation to know what abuses her templars were committing? What, exactly, is the job of the Knight-Commander if it's not to keep order among her templars? 

Please keep in mind, saying that Meredith should have done something does NOT mean that Orsino was perfect.

Nobody is saying that Meredith was blameless. The thread isn't titled "Was it really Meredith's fault?" However, given the number of templars under her employ, it isn't unfeasible that she didn't know the extent of Ser Alrik's actions, just like it's extremely likely she didn't know how incompetent Ser Roderick was, or that Thrask was sympathizing with the mages. Cullen is the only other authority figure in the templars, and he certainly didn't know either.

Honestly, I can sympathize with Meredith. She's a tragic figure, because her ultimate goal was noble - protect the innocent people from the dangers posed by mages run amok. However, her means were abhorrent, and this is why she is such a tragic villain. What happened to set the war off was a perfect storm of circumstances - the political power vaccuum caused by the viscount's death along with his heir, the idol's influence, and the bombing of the chantry were all huge factors in her going off the deep end. Without all of them happening, it most likely would have turned out very differently.

[Sarah1281]

I have yet to see Vhalkyrie admit that Meredith should have done anything differently pre-turning-on-Hawke. In fact, I'm pretty sure the opposite was said.

[dragonflight288]

And we also see that Meredith is ignoring the Chantry. In act 3 when Orsino wants to consult the Grand Cleric because all Meredith sees is blood magic and not innocent reasons, she is all but ready to attack him. She had gone off the deep end by that point.

In Act 2, she had the idol longer than Bartrand did when he sold it to her, and he was nuts. We can only see what Hawke sees and we hear plenty from the people. In act 1, the city guards are acting on Meredith's orders concerning refugeess. They call her the real power of Kirkwall, so she supercedes the viscount? Sorry but that's too much power for a knight-commander to have.

I lay blame on Meredith and Orsino equally and for different reasons.

So no. I don't sympathize with her because I believe there comes a point where everyone is responsible for their own actions, and in the case of people in power, responsible for the well being of their subordinates.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 24 mars 2011 - 10:21 .

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And we also see that Meredith is ignoring the Chantry. In act 3 when Orsino wants to consult the Grand Cleric because all Meredith sees is blood magic and not innocent reasons, she is all but ready to attack him. She had gone off the deep end by that point.

In Act 2, she had the idol longer than Bartrand did when he sold it to her, and he was nuts. We can only see what Hawke sees and we hear plenty from the people. In act 1, the city guards are acting on Meredith's orders concerning refugeess. They call her the real power of Kirkwall, so she supercedes the viscount? Sorry but that's too much power for a knight-commander to have.

I lay blame on Meredith and Orsino equally and for different reasons.

So no. I don't sympathize with her because I believe there comes a point where everyone is responsible for their own actions, and in the case of people in power, responsible for the well being of their subordinates.

Actually, she didn't have the idol until late in Act 2.  When she makes her entrance at the end of Act 2, she is not wearing the lyrium sword.  She wears the lyrium sword at the beginning of Act 3.  Bartrand returns to Kirkwall in Act 2 to get rid of it, because he has moments of sanity when he knows something is wrong.  I conclude that Meredith had it about 3 years, about the same as Bartrand.

You see fleeting moments of sanity with Meredith too during the final battle.  At one point she pauses and asks, "Is this all...madness?"

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 10:56 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I have yet to see Vhalkyrie admit that Meredith should have done anything differently pre-turning-on-Hawke. In fact, I'm pretty sure the opposite was said.

So that's what this is about?  I think I've already said this.  Meredith has plenty of blame to go around for what happens at the end.  But blaming her for the Tranquil Solution when she clearly said no is unfair.

Meredith knew he had plans.  She rejected it.  If he was continuing his rejected plan, then someone needed to bring her proof.  Like, say, a colleague, who is receiving complaints about being harrassed by Ser Alrick.

How about admitting Orsino needed to follow up on Meredith's allegations about blood magic within the Circle? Why no investigation? He already knew.

Here's what I see.  Ser Alrik tells Meredith he has a great idea for a 'Tranquil Solution'.  Meredith says no.  Whether she secretly knew and was pretending she didn't is pure conjecture.  No proof.

Orsino gets a request from Quentin about books for some necromancy project he's working on.  Orsino says, here you go, great job!  Be sure to tell me all the details of your research!  There is proof.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2011 - 11:10 .

[Vhalkyrie]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Again, I don't see why you're placing all of the responsibility on Orsino and none on Meredith. Yes, Orsino should have said something. Does this mean that Meredith had no obligation to know what abuses her templars were committing? What, exactly, is the job of the Knight-Commander if it's not to keep order among her templars? 

Please keep in mind, saying that Meredith should have done something does NOT mean that Orsino was perfect.

Nobody is saying that Meredith was blameless. The thread isn't titled "Was it really Meredith's fault?" However, given the number of templars under her employ, it isn't unfeasible that she didn't know the extent of Ser Alrik's actions, just like it's extremely likely she didn't know how incompetent Ser Roderick was, or that Thrask was sympathizing with the mages. Cullen is the only other authority figure in the templars, and he certainly didn't know either.

Honestly, I can sympathize with Meredith. She's a tragic figure, because her ultimate goal was noble - protect the innocent people from the dangers posed by mages run amok. However, her means were abhorrent, and this is why she is such a tragic villain. What happened to set the war off was a perfect storm of circumstances - the political power vaccuum caused by the viscount's death along with his heir, the idol's influence, and the bombing of the chantry were all huge factors in her going off the deep end. Without all of them happening, it most likely would have turned out very differently.

Exactly right.  It was a perfect storm.  The vacuum of power with the Viscount's death, with no heir.  There was also no other chain of command of what happens in Kirkwall if the Viscount dies with no heir, who takes over.  Meredith is possessed by the lyrium idol, amplifying her mage paranoia.  Anders destroys the Chantry and the last sane person in Kirkwall with it.  Orsino drops his own nuclear option.

[dragonflight288]

All right. I get your points and I see where you're coming from. So to avoid an argument, let's move away from the Tranquil solution (we may come back in the future since I can't predict it) and return to the main point of this topic. Do we sympathize with Meredith?

Vhalkyrie, a question for you. By the time the chantry goes up in smoke, Orsino offers to help search for blood mages in order to prevent innocent mages from being killed by the right of annulment, Anders was right there after all, do you believe that Meredith was justified in calling on the Right of Annulment at that point in time? And if you do or don't, do you sympathize with her there?

[Dave of Canada]

dragonflight288 wrote...

do you believe that Meredith was justified in calling on the Right of Annulment at that point in time? And if you do or don't, do you sympathize with her there?

I didn't sympathize with Orsino there, I stood by Meredith when he began that offer. Mages were becoming restless and openly attacking people in the streets, Blood Mages were rampant and they were inciting open rebellion against the authorities. Meredith orders the tower to be searched and Orsino stands in her way and refuses to allow her to do it, why? Probably because he knows of how much blood mages exist in the tower, he knows that Meredith will find it all.

He was hiding Quentin's research after all, he'd probably be incriminated himself in this situation. Once the Rite of Anullment is called, Orsino refuses to bow down and orders the mages to run away and then blood mages / abominations and demons become rampant on the streets. He only surrenders after he's been cornered in the Gallows with little to no hope of victory, which doesn't stink of an honest offer but one of desperation.

Had Meredith stood down and let Orsino and the others to be searched, what would've happened? They'd find blood magic, they'd find demons and the like and those mages would probably have had an anullment called anyway because of how corrupt the Circle was at the time with barely anything capable of salvaging. This is ignoring how Anders destroyed the Chantry for "mage freedom" and how the public would view it as an act of the mages, they'd cry out for the Circle's blood because of it.

It's an extreme that is not pleasurable, though it was necessary.

[hoorayforicecream]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Vhalkyrie, a question for you. By the time the chantry goes up in smoke, Orsino offers to help search for blood mages in order to prevent innocent mages from being killed by the right of annulment, Anders was right there after all, do you believe that Meredith was justified in calling on the Right of Annulment at that point in time? And if you do or don't, do you sympathize with her there?

No, she wasn't justified in calling for it. Even her Knight-Captain said as much. Had she been thinking straight, she probably would have publicly executed Anders to calm the populous. "Look, the mage responsible for the grand cleric's death is an apostate and now he's dead. Now we have our example of why we must not tolerate apostates." would have been the thing that made the most sense. But by the time it happened, the Lyrium Idol had already worked its juju on Meredith's mind, and she was already too far down insanity lane to come back. I don't agree with her reasoning, or her actions. But I still sympathize, because she's not doing it to be actively malicious. She's doing it because she truly believes her actions will save the lives of many innocent people.

Edit: On the topic of Orsino... I find him to actually be a generally weak-willed person. Maybe it's just the way he was presented, but he seems to be the type who either backs down or gets extremely desperate when things get tough. His thoughts weren't "Dear lord, this is horrible and must be stopped" when he learned about Quentin's research, but "This will look terrible for the mages". He was willing to let Quentin continue his research as long as it didn't come out in public, and that speaks volumes for his character. Since he isn't willing to take the hard stance of "This is genuinely wrong and should be fixed", but rather sticks to "Help help, I'm being repressed!", he doesn't really do anything to provide a solution. It is actually little wonder that Meredith is able to walk all over him while he does little but rant about it... she's firmly in the former mindset. Since Orsino is so willing to help cover up any mage misdoings for fear of being found out, he's exacerbating the problem more than helping.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 25 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

All right. I get your points and I see where you're coming from. So to avoid an argument, let's move away from the Tranquil solution (we may come back in the future since I can't predict it) and return to the main point of this topic. Do we sympathize with Meredith?

Vhalkyrie, a question for you. By the time the chantry goes up in smoke, Orsino offers to help search for blood mages in order to prevent innocent mages from being killed by the right of annulment, Anders was right there after all, do you believe that Meredith was justified in calling on the Right of Annulment at that point in time? And if you do or don't, do you sympathize with her there?

I'm not sure it will keep the peace.   

My first playthrough, I thought it went too far, but then again, I was still reeling from the shock of Anders destroying the Chantry.  The last chance at peace disappear with the tower.  Same as in DAO, I wanted the option to avoid the Annulment.  In DAO, I was able to go into the tower and rescue Irving and the rest of the mages.  Anders eliminated the option to avoid either Annulment, or some form of martial law.  At that point, it was anarchy.  I sympathized with Meredith.  She had been asking Orsino for years (10 years?) to investigate blood magic, and he only wanted to do it after tensions had escalated to the "Last Straw", the Grand Cleric is dead, and the Chantry lay in ashes. 

Also, the Grand Cleric is not blameless either.  If you go talk to her after Anders asks you to help him sneak something in, there's an option to warn her about a plot against the Chantry and Circle.  She dismisses it as, "Oh there's always a plot".  Kirkwall is just a messed up dysfunctional place.  Mismanaged everywhere.

Annulment was extreme, and I'm not even sure it was legal.  From what we understood from DAO is Gregroire had to petition the Grand Cleric in Denerim for Annulment, and was waiting an answer.  My Warden was allowed in only because he hadn't received an answer.  Meredith assumed authority on grounds the Grand Cleric was dead, so she was next in line.  I'm not sure that's how succession works.  By Act 3, she is corrupted by the idol, and not rational.  If you took Anders with you during the Bartrand quest, he explains that the corruption is not unlike a demon possession, but there's no demon.  The mind is tainted by something, and the victim is not in control.  I honestly don't know if rational Meredith would have taken it that far.  The lyrium taint sealed the deal.

Still, rational Meredith would have been justified in some sort of martial law.  Not sure I agree with Annulment, the elimination of ALL mages.  And I didn't do it.  I killed all demons and blood mages I encountered, but I spared the mages who turned themselves in peacefully without resorting to blood magic.

Honestly, I think Meredith and Orsino both drove themselves to the point where they were unfit to lead.  The Templars were defying Meredith.  The mages were doing whatever they wanted, and Orsino wouldn't stop them.  They should have made Hawke Viscount earlier.  But that was at the start of Act 3, and Meredith was already under the influence of the lyrium taint, so she refused to relent.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 01:56 .

[dragonflight288]

Vhalkyrie


My first playthrough, I thought it went too far, but then again, I was still reeling from the shock of Anders destroying the Chantry. The last chance at peace disappear with the tower. Same as in DAO, I wanted the option to avoid the Annulment. In DAO, I was able to go into the tower and rescue Irving and the rest of the mages. Anders eliminated the option to avoid either Annulment, or some form of martial law. At that point, it was anarchy. I sympathized with Meredith. She had been asking Orsino for years (10 years?) to investigate blood magic, and he only wanted to do it after tensions had escalated to the "Last Straw", the Grand Cleric is dead, and the Chantry lay in ashes.

Also, the Grand Cleric is not blameless either. If you go talk to her after Anders asks you to help him sneak something in, there's an option to warn her about a plot against the Chantry and Circle. She dismisses it as, "Oh there's always a plot". Kirkwall is just a messed up dysfunctional place. Mismanaged everywhere.

Annulment was extreme, and I'm not even sure it was legal. From what we understood from DAO is Gregroire had to petition the Grand Cleric in Denerim for Annulment, and was waiting an answer. My Warden was allowed in only because he hadn't received an answer. Meredith assumed authority on grounds the Grand Cleric was dead, so she was next in line. I'm not sure that's how succession works. By Act 3, she is corrupted by the idol, and not rational. If you took Anders with you during the Bartrand quest, he explains that the corruption is not unlike a demon possession, but there's no demon. The mind is tainted by something, and the victim is not in control. I honestly don't know if rational Meredith would have taken it that far. The lyrium taint sealed the deal.

Still, rational Meredith would have been justified in some sort of martial law. Not sure I agree with Annulment, the elimination of ALL mages. And I didn't do it. I killed all demons and blood mages I encountered, but I spared the mages who turned themselves in peacefully without resorting to blood magic.

Honestly, I think Meredith and Orsino both drove themselves to the point where they were unfit to lead. The Templars were defying Meredith. The mages were doing whatever they wanted, and Orsino wouldn't stop them. They should have made Hawke Viscount earlier. But that was at the start of Act 3, and Meredith was already under the influence of the lyrium taint, so she refused to relent.

And there we come to the meat of the whole situation! *applauds* Neither one is innocent, and neither one is wrong. They both take their situation to extremes. In the epilogue, Varic says it could have been Anders, Meredith, or even the idol that caused all this, even he didn't know which to blame in that situation. Shame he didn't mention Orsino. But yes, you just nailed it.

At least in the beginning of Act 3, Orsino is calling for new leadership by calling for a Viscount-although the way he did it was inappropriate. He should have taken those concerns to the Grand Cleric and the Nobles, not calling it all out on the street. That could incite rioting.

In that very same scene, I was getting the impression that Meredith was getting frustrated with the Grand Cleric and was close to defying her and the chantry, but she didn't, and Orsino DID back down when the Grand Cleric confronted him. Neither one of them were willing to go against the Grand Cleric's word at that point in time.

Dave of Canada

I didn't sympathize with Orsino there, I stood by Meredith when he began that offer. Mages were becoming restless and openly attacking people in the streets, Blood Mages were rampant and they were inciting open rebellion against the authorities. Meredith orders the tower to be searched and Orsino stands in her way and refuses to allow her to do it, why? Probably because he knows of how much blood mages exist in the tower, he knows that Meredith will find it all.

He was hiding Quentin's research after all, he'd probably be incriminated himself in this situation. Once the Rite of Anullment is called, Orsino refuses to bow down and orders the mages to run away and then blood mages / abominations and demons become rampant on the streets. He only surrenders after he's been cornered in the Gallows with little to no hope of victory, which doesn't stink of an honest offer but one of desperation.

Had Meredith stood down and let Orsino and the others to be searched, what would've happened? They'd find blood magic, they'd find demons and the like and those mages would probably have had an anullment called anyway because of how corrupt the Circle was at the time with barely anything capable of salvaging. This is ignoring how Anders destroyed the Chantry for "mage freedom" and how the public would view it as an act of the mages, they'd cry out for the Circle's blood because of it.

It's an extreme that is not pleasurable, though it was necessary.

Very nice insights. We all know Orsino wasn't acting for the good of Kirkwall. But neither was Meredith. And they both thought they were. Meredith does veto Hawke's stepping up to be the new viscount should the player choose that option at the beginning of Act 3. Orsino mentions that she objects to everyone who tries to take the position, leaving her the leader of the city--for three years. I understand her filling in while the position is settled, but three years is kind of overdoing it.

[SupidSeep]

dragonflight288 wrote...

... do you believe that Meredith was justified in calling on the Right of Annulment at that point in time? And if you do or don't, do you sympathize with her there?

I read that quite a few people support the Annulment claiming that the Circle was too far gone.  However, that argument is based on knowledge that is confirmed AFTER the decision to Annul is made: Orsino's knowledge of Quentin's work, his and other mages' use of Blood Magic in the resultant conflict.

At that point of the Chantry's destruction, there was no solid evidence ON HAND to proof that the Circle was due to be Annuled.  The destruction was caused by an Apostate Mage who declared his involvement clearly to all parties present.

Orsino offered to allow and assist Meredith in searching the Circle for any evidence of Blood Magic or corruption.  Should Meredith conduct the search and uncover sufficent proof of the Circle's crimes (quite likely) - she would have been perfectly justified in calling for the Annulment - and my Hawke would have backed her.

Meredith called for the Annulment without securing proof beforehand (if she already had evidence - the Circle would have long been Annuled before Anders blew up the Chantry).  That action is damnable.

That the Circle was already steeped in Blood Magic did not matter: Meredith was WRONG to decide on the Annulment BEFORE gathering evidence to show that the Annulment was required.

[Sabriana]

That's the biggest thing that made Meredith's power of reason highly suspect to my Hawke. The guilty party - an apostate mage, no less - is standing right in front of her, willing and ripe for punishment. Yet, she completely ignores that, and even pushes the handling of Anders onto my Hawke, telling her to do with him as she wishes.

My Hawke (and I) both had that "Wait! Whot!?!" moment right then and there, and it was clear to Hawke (and me), that Meredith had definitely passed from reason and sanity into the exact opposite.

[sevenplusone]

I really like Meredith, wish she was a romance option. Hope by some miracle she's a companion in DA3, someone restoring her from the state she's in possibly.

[Vhalkyrie]

hoorayforicecream wrote...
Edit: On the topic of Orsino... I find him to actually be a generally weak-willed person. Maybe it's just the way he was presented, but he seems to be the type who either backs down or gets extremely desperate when things get tough. His thoughts weren't "Dear lord, this is horrible and must be stopped" when he learned about Quentin's research, but "This will look terrible for the mages". He was willing to let Quentin continue his research as long as it didn't come out in public, and that speaks volumes for his character. Since he isn't willing to take the hard stance of "This is genuinely wrong and should be fixed", but rather sticks to "Help help, I'm being repressed!", he doesn't really do anything to provide a solution. It is actually little wonder that Meredith is able to walk all over him while he does little but rant about it... she's firmly in the former mindset. Since Orsino is so willing to help cover up any mage misdoings for fear of being found out, he's exacerbating the problem more than helping.

I agree with this.  I've been saying the same thing, but apparently I say it in a way that is polarizing. 

Meredith is too draconian.  Orsino is too soft.  The two together without a intermediary is a disaster.  Orsino is very likeable and you can sympathize with him easily, but that doesn't mean he's a good leader.  A good leader sometimes has to make a stand that is unpopular.  When I found out he was aiding Quentin, who used it to serial kill women and mother, then used his research against Hawke, I lost respect for him.  Up until then, I thought he was "the good guy".  Suddenly, everything Fenris and Meredith were saying about the mages and Orsino seemed to make sense.

To make an analogy, in the mage Origin, Irving doesn't try to cover up and hide Jowan's blood magic.  He goes straight to Gregroire.  He had to deal with the problem, as embarrassing as it was.  My mage got in big trouble with Irving for trying to protect Jowan, and was forced to become a Grey Warden.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 01:47 .

[Wulfram]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

To make an analogy, in the mage Origin, Irving doesn't try to cover up and hide Jowan's blood magic.  He had to deal with the problem, as embarrassing as it was.  My mage got in big trouble with Irving for trying to protect Jowan, and was forced to become a Grey Warden.

But Irving does play silly games trying to ensure that a Chantry priest gets in trouble too, which results in Jowan escaping and Redcliffe being (nearly) destroyed.

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

And there we come to the meat of the whole situation! *applauds* Neither one is innocent, and neither one is wrong. They both take their situation to extremes. In the epilogue, Varic says it could have been Anders, Meredith, or even the idol that caused all this, even he didn't know which to blame in that situation. Shame he didn't mention Orsino. But yes, you just nailed it.

Orsino's role is more subtle.  The reason the Templars and Meredith were going nuts is because apostates were killing Templars, and infecting Templars with demons.  Templars were abusing mages, who they feared as hosts for demons.  Who fired the first shot is irrelevant, and unknown.  By the time Hawke gets to Kirkwall, the brew is already simmering.  The pressure was building without a release valve.  Orsino was asked to investigate blood mage activity within the ranks, he dismisses her as paranoid, which only added to the tension.  Meredith becomes more frustrated and clamps down harder.  Orsino is more angry with more clamp down, and resists more.  The cycle swirls like a cyclone.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 01:49 .

[Vhalkyrie]

Wulfram wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

To make an analogy, in the mage Origin, Irving doesn't try to cover up and hide Jowan's blood magic.  He had to deal with the problem, as embarrassing as it was.  My mage got in big trouble with Irving for trying to protect Jowan, and was forced to become a Grey Warden.

But Irving does play silly games trying to ensure that a Chantry priest gets in trouble too, which results in Jowan escaping and Redcliffe being (nearly) destroyed.

The girl didn't know Jowan was a blood mage, and was appalled when she found out.  At that point, she was willing to take any punishment.

The soon-to-be Warden mage gets in trouble for helping Jowan destroy his phylactery, so they couldn't track him down.  Irving and Gregroire were arguing about the consequences of that.  In one playthrough, I lied to Irving about Jowan and got in trouble.

In another playthrough, I told Irving what Jowan was up to, so Irving stood up for me against Gregroire saying I helped Jowan in order to catch him in the act.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 01:44 .

[dragonflight288]

I'm currently playing Origins again as a human mage in order to have the Hero of Feraldan be Hawke's cousin (second cousin?), and while Irving does play his political games in order for the Chantry to punish Lily, he makes no effort to protect Jowan from the chantry either. But, Greigor also says he has evidence and eye-witness testimony of Jowan practicing blood magic. What they do is what Meredith and Orsino are supposed to do. Gather evidence and work together. This way most of the mages are not feeling so oppressed, the templars don't need to abuse anyone and everyone is safe.

What Meredith does is act without evidence, and Orsino hides what little evidence she does have. Neither one are fit for leadership.

[Vhalkyrie]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I'm currently playing Origins again as a human mage in order to have the Hero of Feraldan be Hawke's cousin (second cousin?), and while Irving does play his political games in order for the Chantry to punish Lily, he makes no effort to protect Jowan from the chantry either.

How so?  In my playthrough, the second Jowan revealed himself as a blood mage, Lily surrendered herself immediately, saying she will accept their punishment.  My mage is then whisked off by Duncan.

But, Greigor also says he has evidence and eye-witness testimony of
Jowan practicing blood magic. What they do is what Meredith and Orsino
are supposed to do. Gather evidence and work together. This way most of
the mages are not feeling so oppressed, the templars don't need to abuse
anyone and everyone is safe.

What Meredith does is act without
evidence, and Orsino hides what little evidence she does have. Neither
one are fit for leadership.

Yes.  Which is why I brougth up Irving/Gregroire as an example.

Not being argumentative, but in what instance does she act without evidence?  After the quest where Templars are being infected by demons, I think she had pretty good cause to demand Orsino investigate blood mage activity.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 02:02 .

[dragonflight288]

I was simply referring to Act 3. When she calls for the Right of Annulment. The culprit for the crime was right in front of her. Orsino was offering to help her. But she scorns it all to invoke the right.

Granted, in the end, it's revealed that Orsino was hiding blood mages and practiced Quentin's research, but at the time she made the decision there was no evidence to support it.

[Wulfram]

Vhalkyrie wrote...

How so?  In my playthrough, the second Jowan revealed himself as a blood mage, Lily surrendered herself immediately, saying she will accept their punishment.  My mage is then whisked off by Duncan.

The whole reason Irving lets Jowan's plan go so far is because he wants to catch Lily too, so that Jowan's actions can't be used against the Circle.  If he'd done his job properly, Jowan wouldn't have had the opportunity to escape - or at least, would have still been trackable by Phylactery.

[Vhalkyrie]

Wulfram wrote...

Vhalkyrie wrote...

How so?  In my playthrough, the second Jowan revealed himself as a blood mage, Lily surrendered herself immediately, saying she will accept their punishment.  My mage is then whisked off by Duncan.

The whole reason Irving lets Jowan's plan go so far is because he wants to catch Lily too, so that Jowan's actions can't be used against the Circle.  If he'd done his job properly, Jowan wouldn't have had the opportunity to escape - or at least, would have still been trackable by Phylactery.

Ahhh...got it.

[Edit] Though it could be argued that Irving was putting Jowan in a situation of duress so he would reveal himself as a blood mage.  Rooting out blood mages is very difficult.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 25 mars 2011 - 03:56 .