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[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Whatever do you people do with regards to D&D, where atheists are literally and provably sent to be damned for eternity for not worshipping any of it's two-bit jerk deities.

Depending on how much your DM wants to show off, D&D deities have a nigh alarming tendency to not only be real, but also present though

[ZaroktheImmortal]

The Angry One wrote...

Whatever do you people do with regards to D&D, where atheists are literally and provably sent to be damned for eternity for not worshipping any of it's two-bit jerk deities.

Well in Dragon Age there's no evidence of any maker or deity being real(Just like in real life) It's like the real sense of religion that people say they know there deity is real but it's something that's questioned throughout the game. Morrigan was one of the few Atheist characters from the first one. Though your character had quite a few chances to deny the maker.

[nicodeemus327]

Talladarr wrote...

Agnostic's the way to go

You can be both agnostic and atheistic at the same time. The vast majority of atheists are. Just fyi.

[The Angry One]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Whatever do you people do with regards to D&D, where atheists are literally and provably sent to be damned for eternity for not worshipping any of it's two-bit jerk deities.

Hey! Welcome back to the forums!

Thanks.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

But this thing goes down to the dialogue wheel and voice acting part. In the first one there was plenty of times you could say things against the chantry and maker belief. But in this one you're more of choose the emotion to express and you have to just accept whatever dialogue goes along with that.

[The Angry One]

The only time it bothered me is one set of responses to Merril after Hawke's mother's death which is basically:

- Say mother's with the Maker.
- Tell Merril to get lost.
- Be a jerk.

I felt none of these responses were anywhere near what I wanted to roleplay for that moment, rather than because of the religious reference itself.

[Camilladilla]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I think in Dragon Age the boundary between myth and reality is much more blurred than in our world. It's not just because they are less scientifically advanced - they literally have magic, Demons and Spirits dwelling in another world and Darkspawn trying to take the world over, and all these are no less mythical than the Maker or the Old Gods or the Dread Wolf.

Especially considering the history of the ancient Tevinters, it is almost certain that magical beings of power exceeding an Archedemon exist in the Dragon Age world. Whether they are benigh or not, or whether the world was created by them, or whether they even want to have anything to do with this world any more is not certain.

Morrigan called the Maker "an absentee father figure" which could suggest that she is kind of a deist/agnostic rather than the absolute atheist she appears to be. In short, there are indeed much less reasons to be an atheist in the Dragon Age world than in ours.

Very good point.

Although given how Andrastians have a monopoly on the Black City myths, it must really put a damper on any mages who don't adhere to the Chantry when they enter the Fade. All they have to simply do is look up and see at least some part of the Chantry's dogma is true.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 24 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[The Angry One]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The only time it bothered me is one set of responses to Merril after Hawke's mother's death which is basically:

- Say mother's with the Maker.
- Tell Merril to get lost.
- Be a jerk.

I felt none of these responses were anywhere near what I wanted to roleplay for that moment, rather than because of the religious reference itself.

Yes, that dialogue vexed me as well. But I generally take the "Mother should be here, with us." option. I think Hawke is entitled to be a jerk right after his/her mother died, no?

Otherwise I would choose "She is with the Maker now." and Merrill would say "or with Falon'Din, you never know." And I would be yelling "Yeah! I know! Why not Falon'Din? BioWare, why not?"

Of course Hawke can be a jerk, it's just not what I prefer.
I would've liked an option to cry on the love interest's shoulder myself; if there's any time for a strong leader to break down for a moment it'd be that.
Or maybe it's just what I'd do.

[Lithuasil]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course Hawke can be a jerk, it's just not what I prefer.
I would've liked an option to cry on the love interest's shoulder myself; if there's any time for a strong leader to break down for a moment it'd be that.
Or maybe it's just what I'd do.

Pretty much seconded. For what it's worth, they came closer to allowing something like this, then most other games

[The Angry One]

Camilladilla wrote...

Although given how Andrastians have a monopoly on the Black City myths, it must really put a damper on any mages who don't adhere to the Chantry when they enter the Fade. All they have to simply do is look up and see at least some part of the Chantry's dogma is true.

Not really. That the Black City exists is fact. That it is what the Chantry says it is (the seat of the Maker) is easily dismissed as hearsay by non-believers.
Especially since I think there's reason enough to think it's Arlathan.

[Camilladilla]

The Angry One wrote...

Not really. That the Black City exists is fact. That it is what the Chantry says it is (the seat of the Maker) is easily dismissed as hearsay by non-believers.
Especially since I think there's reason enough to think it's Arlathan.

Oh? Do explain!

[ZaroktheImmortal]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Well in Dragon Age there's no evidence of any maker or deity being real(Just like in real life) It's like the real sense of religion that people say they know there deity is real but it's something that's questioned throughout the game. Morrigan was one of the few Atheist characters from the first one. Though your character had quite a few chances to deny the maker.

I think in Dragon Age the boundary between myth and reality is much more blurred than in our world. It's not just because they are less scientifically advanced - they literally have magic, Demons and Spirits dwelling in another world and Darkspawn trying to take the world over, and all these are no less mythical than the Maker or the Old Gods or the Dread Wolf.

Especially considering the history of the ancient Tevinters, it is almost certain that magical beings of power exceeding an Archedemon exist in the Dragon Age world. Whether they are benigh or not, or whether the world was created by them, or whether they even want to have anything to do with this world any more is not certain.

Morrigan called the Maker "an absentee father figure" which could suggest that she is kind of a deist/agnostic rather than the absolute atheist she appears to be. In short, there are indeed much less reasons to be an atheist in the Dragon Age world than in ours.

I think she was just saying that in the sense that Leliana believed in it and the chantry that their idea of a deity was an absentee father figure. I don't think she actually believed.



[*]Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?

[*]Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.

[*]Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.

[*]Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.

[*]Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?

[*]Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by its very nature, chaotic.


[*]Leliana: So you truly do not believe in any sort of higher power?

[*]Morrigan: It has been bothering you, I see. No, I do not. Must I?

[*]Leliana: What do you believe happens to you after you die then? Nothing?

[*]Morrigan: I do not go sit by the Maker's side, if that's what you mean.

[*]Leliana: Only those who are worthy are brought to the Maker's side. So many other sad souls are left to wander in the void, hopeless and forever lost.

[*]Morrigan: And what evidence of this have you? I see only spirits, no wandering ghosts of wicked disbelievers.

 

[*]Leliana: How can someone who practices magic have so little capacity to believe in that which she cannot see?

[*]Morrigan: Magic is real. I can touch it and command it and I need no faith for it to fill me up inside. If you are looking for your higher power, there it is.

Modifié par ZaroktheImmortal, 24 mars 2011 - 03:13 .

[The Angry One]

Camilladilla wrote...

Oh? Do explain!

I may be recalling things wrong, but I remember it said that the ancient elves existed both in the Fade and the material world. If so, then the same could be true for their city.
When Tevinter buried the city, it's Fade side could've been cast adrift and corrupted, hence becoming the source of the taint. The first Blight came some time after that.
Then there's how the Eluvian is connected to the Fade and was corrupted by that same taint.

Modifié par The Angry One, 24 mars 2011 - 03:19 .

[Abispa]

The "good" battle cry does indeed sound awkward, but as an atheist myself, I can see a non-believer Hawke using cultural expressions based on the predominant religion. For example, I still say "Oh, my God!" a lot, as well as "God damn it!" even though I'm not really calling on a Higher Power. It is possible that Hawke's "good" battle cry is based on her fellow soldiers' or mages' battle cries.

[The Angry One]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course Hawke can be a jerk, it's just not what I prefer.
I would've liked an option to cry on the love interest's shoulder myself; if there's any time for a strong leader to break down for a moment it'd be that.
Or maybe it's just what I'd do.

To be honest, I am much more satisfied with Hawke's frequent displays of vulnerability that Shepard's complete "woman/man of steel" style. Especially when you search for Mother following the blood stains, Jo Wyatt's delivery was perfect.

Hawke is a much more emotional person than Shepard (or dare I say, the Warden as well) because BioWare rained a deluge of personal struggles and tragedies on Hawke like they never did with any other protagonist. They literally murdered Hawke's entire family in the worst possible ways, and then took away each and every one of Hawke's friends mercilessly.

It is remarkable that in the city of Kirkwall where insanity and mental breakdowns are pandemic, the person who deserves most to become insane with rage and sadness has remained calm and balanced.

That I agree with, though I'm fond of Shep's badassness.

[Silveryne]

Atheism was a much rarer thing in Europe until you hit around the Baroque or the Enlightenment.

Bethany is a goody-two-shoes, devout Andrastan apostate. There is no good reason to believe Hawke couldn't be as well. Some religious respect and tradition was clearly in their background, even if they were fleeing templars at every step of the way.

I don't mind that my blood mage says this. She's nice, and probably super deluded about the nature of what she's doing. Kind of like Merrill. Except less on the crazy train.

Quick Edit: I found COULD I GET YOU A LADDER SO YOU COULD GET OFF MY BACK warden to be much more annoying and whatnot than Hawke believing in Andraste! 

Modifié par Silveryne, 24 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[The Angry One]

Well, Morrigan believes magic is a part of the world and force of nature like any other, therefore magical beings are not supernatural - they exist because the laws of this world allows it.
She certainly doesn't view the Old Gods as something to be worshipped given how casually she seeks to usurp the soul of one for her own ends.