128 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

"And thus I cloak my naked villiany"

[Ariella]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

So I was playing a 'nice' Hawke instead of a 'sarcastic' one for a change. I was glad to notice that many of the default dialogues (those that you don't choose via the dialogue wheel, but occurs automatically) are different from the sarcastic version - a really nice touch, and evidence against the believe that the dialogue wheel system offers less variety than its DA:O counterpart. In fact, it provides consistency for a better RP experience.

What really surprised (and annoyed) me is that Hawke's battle cries are changed as well. Sarcastic Rogue Hawke would say "Fixing the problems in this world one death at a time!", but my Nice Mage Hawke would say "May Andraste guide you!"

I mean, seriously? First of all, this battle cry is uttered after enemies are killed. So Hawke wants Andraste to guide her enemies (which can happen to be a Rage Demon/Revenant/Quentin)? Secondly, when did I ever show any sign that my Hawke believes in Andraste at all? Did BioWare assume that because my Hawke is nice, so she has to be religious? There is very little correlation between the two as far as I know.

And last but certainly not least, why Andraste? Why can't my Hawke be Unitarian (The Maker is real, Andraste is but a woman)? Or worship the Old Gods? Or the Creators? Or follow the Qun? Why does an Apostate Mage refugee from Ferelden feel so devout towards the Chantry that she has to invoke the name of their god after each enemy is slain?

It makes zero sense.

I always say it as being like saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes or My God! when something startles you, which is almost an automatic response for some people even if they aren't religious. Has more to do with the culture than anything else.

And look at Anders, he believes in Andraste and the Maker, he just has an issue with the organized religion that sprang up around them and what it does to mages. Someone who is good might just feel a sense of responsibility to acknowlegde the act of taking a life with some kind of note of faith, even if it's only a few words. It might not be repect for the person who specifically died but that a life has gone out of the world and is being commited to the next, and who better to guide the spirit than the Maker's Prophet.

[Maugrim]

Hawke says it for the same reason most, atheists/agnostics/panthesist/etc etc still say God bless you when someone sneezes.

People trying to make more out of it are just funny.  In a completely annoying way.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 24 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[Camilladilla]

The Angry One wrote...

I may be recalling things wrong, but I remember it said that the ancient elves existed both in the Fade and the material world. If so, then the same could be true for their city.
When Tevinter buried the city, it's Fade side could've been cast adrift and corrupted, hence becoming the source of the taint. The first Blight came some time after that.
Then there's how the Eluvian is connected to the Fade and was corrupted by that same taint.

Hrmm, I kinda like this idea, it explains a lot about the Eluvian. My elf lore's pretty rusty beyond know that Fen'harel is supposed to be a trickster god >_>

[Maugrim]

I'm going to do a point by point response to the relevant or interesting parts of your post

iOnlySignIn wrote...
Have you met anyone, theist or not, saying "God bless you" after they kill?

Have you? 

Never met any killers myself.  Well not that I know of....

[Xyan]

My Hawke worships Flemeth.... How could he not? He wants to turn himself into a dragon the first time he sees her swooping..

[Silveryne]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
[color=rgb(255, 255, 0)">Hawke doesn't say it when someone sneezes (I'd be OK ]battle cry[/color]. Have you met anyone, theist or not, saying "God bless you" after they kill? How religiously zealous must one be to do something like that?

The Qunari says "Glory to the Qun" in their language as a battle cry. How devout are the Qunari in their religion? Would Hawke be even half as devout?

There's a lot of  religious phrases that historically have been said as battlecries, or to parties who are about to die.

"May God have mercy on your soul". is sometimes referenced as being said to a party who is about to be executed.
"Nobiscum Deus!" (God is with us!) in Rome and Byzantium.
"God is great!" in the Middle East.
"Dex aie!" at the Battle of Hastings (God aid us!)
Crusaders used to cry "Heaven at last!" and "God wills it!"
Many people used the name of their country's patron saint as a battlecry.

Yes, religious battlecries do happen -- and are said by people ranging from the most devout, to those who only believe a little. None of these are quite on the level of saying "God bless you." Depending on the religion, a deity being merciful may trump the idea of a deity being all-conquering. There are sects of modern day Christianity that go off meek, suffering, and forgiving, and there are sects that play up the panocrator aspect.

The idea that you have to be super religious to say something that might be part of a regional dialect is a little silly. As someone pointed out, Atheists do say "God bless you." people do say "God Willing".

It is very nice of Nice!Hawke to hope that her enemies, even if they are blood mages, find some sort of redemption. It makes Hawke merciful. Hawke doesn't have to go to the Chantry every day to hope that someone that s/he kills has a pleasant afterlife and is forgiven for past transgressions.

And it's a stock phrase in a videogame. Leliana backstabbed people all the time while screaming "I TRIED TO BE MERCIFUL." NO YOU DIDN'T LELIANA. YOU DIDN'T TRY AT ALL.

[The Angry One]

Xyan wrote...

My Hawke worships Flemeth.... How could he not? He wants to turn himself into a dragon the first time he sees her swooping..

Flemeth: "You can never be a dragon!"

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Xyan wrote...

My Hawke worships Flemeth.... How could he not? He wants to turn himself into a dragon the first time he sees her swooping..

Swooping is bad.

[Silveryne]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Silveryne wrote...

There's a lot of  religious phrases that historically have been said as battlecries, or to parties who are about to die.

"Nobiscum Deus!" (God is with us!) in Rome and Byzantium.
"God is great!" in the Middle East.
"Dex aie!" at the Battle of Hastings (God aid us!)
Crusaders used to cry "Heaven at last!" and "God wills it!"
Many people used the name of their country's patron saint as a battlecry.

Yes, religious battlecries do happen -- and are said by people ranging from the most devout, to those who only believe a little. None of these are quite on the level of saying "God bless you." Depending on the religion, a deity being merciful may trump the idea of a deity being all-conquering. There are sects of modern day Christianity that go off meek, suffering, and forgiving, and there are sects that play up the panocrator aspect.

A very nice compilation. But I believe that those religious battle cries are chosen by the generals/commanders as "official" battle cries in order to rally the troops, since the majority of the soldiers in their army are of a certain religious affiliation and it would boost morale greatly. Same as Henry V's speech ending in Shakespeare: "By God, for Harry, England, and St. George!" He uses those words mostly to inspire his troops, instead of to seek religious absolution for himself.

Hawke's situation is entirely different. She/he is seldom the general of an army (much less so than the Warden), and her company usually includes a Dalish Blood Mage, an Abomination who plans on blowing up the Chantry, and a merchant Dwarf who doesn't appear to even acknowledge the Paragons. Andraste's name would not inspire any of them that much, and we can only attribute the battle cry to Hawke's own spirituality - which should be the player's choice.

Sometimes battlecries and religious symbols are certainly chosen by generals as rallying points! Case in point: Constantine attaching religious symbols to his army's shields in order to boost morale.
But there is an inherent problem: there are, for sure, some people who say these battlecries and believe them. Otherwise, battlecries and rallying cries would be entirely useless to say to your people. You could just say "Hey, people, we're going to kill the other guys, and we don't need any help to do it!" Or scream "FOR THOMAS HOBBBBBBBBESSSSS", the battle cry of Hobbists, Atheists, and political realists everywhere!

The voicesets for the warden had to be more generalized because they were used across races. Some jarringly break the 4th wall (again, the ladder-back quote), but most are pretty bland and unmemorable (in my opinion, of course). Having a Hawke who acknowledges Andraste might be just as bland as having a Hawke whose dad is dead and was named Malcolm; there's room for a lot of player interpretation. How does Hawke acknowledge Andraste?

Well, there's always the possibility that Hawke doesn't actually believe, but thinks that whoever s/he just slaughtered does, kind of a "pray to your god" "may your god have mercy" thing. Unless it's the Qunari. Then Hawke who is supposedly nice is being a big old jerk. Your personal Hawke might not believe, but just say it to be a nice guy (or dirtbag, situation depending). And of course, Hawke might actually be devout! Both options make sense for a nice/diplomatic Hawke. Except the Qunari, unless Hawke is taking pity on these poor, barbaric savage ox-men. Andraste, or someone, will show them some mercy and teach them the error of their ways in the end!

[Emperor Iaius I]

Or scream "FOR THOMAS HOBBBBBBBBESSSSS", the battle cry of Hobbists, Atheists, and political realists everywhere!

You are wonderful.

[LobselVith8]

Link3521 wrote...

Sorry but blood magic and helping people just don't go together, look at what happens to Merril when she tries to be a nice blood mage 

You mean she helps Hawke fight his enemies and selflessly risks her own life and soul for a chance to benefit her people, who hate and despise her?

The Angry One wrote...

The only time it bothered me is one set of responses to Merril after Hawke's mother's death which is basically:

- Say mother's with the Maker.
- Tell Merril to get lost.
- Be a jerk.

I felt none of these responses were anywhere near what I wanted to roleplay for that moment, rather than because of the religious reference itself.

I completely agree. What surprised me about this is that, at an early part of the game, Hawke can tell the Grand Cleric that the Maker had nothing to do with ending the Blight (although I imported the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi - an elven mage, no less - so I don't know if it's an option for all Hawkes) but I'm surprised I couldn't follow up this line of thought here. I remember how my Surana Warden had the option to deny the blessing of the Maker in Ostagar, but it reminds me of the limited option we had when speaking to the Chantry Sister in Lothering and only having the option to say "Doesn't everyone?" when she asked if I heard of the Chant of Light (and I found the comment to be stupid considering the Dalish and the Dwarves). It takes me out of the experience. It's one thing to have Bethany being uber-religious because she's not the protagonist we control, but I don't see why the option to have Hawke be religious or not religious is denied to us.

[Spoonuser12]

Well said OP. I really think it should be player choice. Kindness and diplomacy in no way correlate to Theological preferences.

[Oneiropolos]

Shepherd herself can reference the quote, "There are no atheists in a foxhole." Which, of course, is not true. But In a world full of dragons, magic, abominations, spirits, demons, enchantment...being upset because a diplomat Hawke...(and guys, that's what that choice is. It isn't 'nice' anymore than the red is 'mean'. The red can vary in exact context too, which is why you'll sometimes see it as a fist, sometimes it'll be the cross swords for combat, and sometimes it'll be a hammer and gavel. The first choice is symbolized by an olive branch because it's the diplomatic choice.) would default to a a more religious slant on things isn't showing a very good grasp of history and the way human civilization has worked. From Carver choosing to join the Templars if you leave him behind, and Bethany's conversations throughout the game, you can deduce that Hawke came from an Andrastian household. Lothering was ALSO a small city. If you know your history well, small cities are where everyone knows you (Bethany admits to being able to recognize every Templar in Lothering, something she put effort into doing so she'd know who to avoid but something that would be impossible for her to pull off in a bigger location.) If your family holds apostate mages in it, you're going to church and you're going to look devout and as a result your children will probably end up at least following along that religious belief. Otherwise, notice will be taken of you for not attending. The Salem Witch trials are a GREAT (in a horrific way) example of what happens when people are able to point out the people of a village who don't attend church and don't have as many allies. A mage trying to lay low wouldn't want people being suspicious because they're not being normal citizens of the town and that causing them to find out they're actually a mage avoiding the circle.

We also know Leandra was accepted into the Andrastian church in Kirkwall. Elthina performed the ceremony when she was a baby, and laughingly recounts the story to Hawke. Hawke has every reason for growing up with at least instinctually using religious phrasing and it'd be against every natural response for Hawke to be Atheist. It doesn't mean Hawke can't be agnostic/Atheist. But it'd be incredibly rare. And a diplomat Hawke would be generally trying to take the calmer approach to things and not get so hotheaded they ever forget that and draw attention to themselves. And yes, we control Hawke, but they have a set history and a set family and set circumstances. You can RP that your Hawke pretends to be more devout than they are to blend in, or that they just never wanted to upset Leandra by flat out going "Uhm, no, I don't believe in the Maker." But in terms of the game, I think the premise set up is that Hawke, at least, has always given the appearance of believing that way. But there's a big difference between appearance, or even phrases used, and actual belief. So don't be discouraged.

[Statulos]

The Angry One wrote...

Well, Morrigan believes magic is a part of the world and force of nature like any other, therefore magical beings are not supernatural - they exist because the laws of this world allows it.
She certainly doesn't view the Old Gods as something to be worshipped given how casually she seeks to usurp the soul of one for her own ends.

The problem here is the very word "belief". Do we belive in gravity? Or magnetism? Magic in Thedas is in the same league: the scientific level is not enough to explain it just as it has not archived knowledge of the laws of genetics formulated by Mendel, but that does not make the phenomena of magic empyricaly true.

makenzieshepard wrote...

Hawke says it for the same reason most, atheists/agnostics/panthesist/etc etc still say God bless you when someone sneezes.

People trying to make more out of it are just funny.  In a completely annoying way.

Only when your first language is English! I would never say that.

Oneiropolos wrote...
We also know Leandra was accepted into
the Andrastian church in Kirkwall. Elthina performed the ceremony when
she was a baby, and laughingly recounts the story to Hawke. Hawke has
every reason for growing up with at least instinctually using religious
phrasing and it'd be against every natural response for Hawke to be
Atheist. It doesn't mean Hawke can't be agnostic/Atheist. But it'd be
incredibly rare.

The fact that Hawke Sr. was an apostate makes me think otherwise.

Modifié par Statulos, 24 mars 2011 - 07:45 .

[BloodRaith]

Uh oh, religious debate.
*jumps out window*

[Talladarr]

I will make my opinion short and sweet. I can't stand Andrasteism, it reminds me FAR too much of my hypocritical christian family. On a final note, I'm glad I'm never the most diplomatic person. goodbye.