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[Eternal Phoenix]

I used mean responses and got "Send my regards to The Maker" so I guess Hawke is religious no matter. Not a problem to me. Religious Hawke is religious. I like religious Hawke.

[ToJKa1]

Filament wrote...

You could just take it as a figure of speech, like any atheist in the US might say "damn it" or "go to hell" while not actually believing in the concepts of damnation or an afterlife.

That's how i take it. I'm known to use the finnish version of "Goddammit" occasionally (which ironically translates to about "god help me" ) despite my vviews being agnostic (which equals about "don't know, don't care")

[PPR223]

Did you know that the English used to shout "St George!" as their battle cry? And the French used "Montjoie St Denis", did they all believe the stories of what they did? I doubt it.

Modifié par PPR223, 25 mars 2011 - 07:05 .

[Knal1991]

it changes in par with your most chosen conversation options (really?) that's quite awesome actually (or you took Sebastian with, cause I'm sure he said that a few times)

[allankles]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

So I was playing a 'nice' Hawke instead of a 'sarcastic' one for a change. I was glad to notice that many of the default dialogues (those that you don't choose via the dialogue wheel, but occurs automatically) are different from the sarcastic version - a really nice touch, and evidence against the believe that the dialogue wheel system offers less variety than its DA:O counterpart. In fact, it provides consistency for a better RP experience.

What really surprised (and annoyed) me is that Hawke's battle cries are changed as well. Sarcastic Rogue Hawke would say "Fixing the problems in this world one death at a time!", but my Nice Mage Hawke would say "May Andraste guide you!"

I mean, seriously? First of all, this battle cry is uttered after enemies are killed. So Hawke wants Andraste to guide her enemies (which can happen to be a Rage Demon/Revenant/Quentin)? Secondly, when did I ever show any sign that my Hawke believes in Andraste at all? Did BioWare assume that because my Hawke is nice, so she has to be religious? There is very little correlation between the two as far as I know.

And last but certainly not least, why Andraste? Why can't my Hawke be Unitarian (The Maker is real, Andraste is but a woman)? Or worship the Old Gods? Or the Creators? Or follow the Qun? Why does an Apostate Mage refugee from Ferelden feel so devout towards the Chantry that she has to invoke the name of their god after each enemy is slain?

It makes zero sense.

To be fair to diplomatic Hawke, this is a universe where demons and immortal non human spirits interact with people. Believing or being agnositic about the Maker and the whole Andraste movement in such a world is perfectly natural. You can't place real world qualities on aspects of belief and faith on a character in a universe like DA, it's not fair to Hawke. 

What reason would a character like Hawke have for being Atheist in the DA universe? They'd have to be some kind of back story there that explains why he'd have no doubt about the non existance of the Maker. It's even less likely for a Mage Hawke given that he has access to the Fade, with all its spirits, demons and godlings.

[ToJKa1]

BloodRaith wrote...

Uh oh, religious debate.
*jumps out window*

The smartest response in this thread

[Knal1991]

allankles wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

So I was playing a 'nice' Hawke instead of a 'sarcastic' one for a change. I was glad to notice that many of the default dialogues (those that you don't choose via the dialogue wheel, but occurs automatically) are different from the sarcastic version - a really nice touch, and evidence against the believe that the dialogue wheel system offers less variety than its DA:O counterpart. In fact, it provides consistency for a better RP experience.

What really surprised (and annoyed) me is that Hawke's battle cries are changed as well. Sarcastic Rogue Hawke would say "Fixing the problems in this world one death at a time!", but my Nice Mage Hawke would say "May Andraste guide you!"

I mean, seriously? First of all, this battle cry is uttered after enemies are killed. So Hawke wants Andraste to guide her enemies (which can happen to be a Rage Demon/Revenant/Quentin)? Secondly, when did I ever show any sign that my Hawke believes in Andraste at all? Did BioWare assume that because my Hawke is nice, so she has to be religious? There is very little correlation between the two as far as I know.

And last but certainly not least, why Andraste? Why can't my Hawke be Unitarian (The Maker is real, Andraste is but a woman)? Or worship the Old Gods? Or the Creators? Or follow the Qun? Why does an Apostate Mage refugee from Ferelden feel so devout towards the Chantry that she has to invoke the name of their god after each enemy is slain?

It makes zero sense.

To be fair to diplomatic Hawke, this is a universe where demons and immortal non human spirits interact with people. Believing or being agnositic about the Maker and the whole Andraste movement in such a world is perfectly natural. You can't place real world qualities on aspects of belief and faith on a character in a universe like DA, it's not fair to Hawke. 

What reason would a character like Hawke have for being Atheist in the DA universe? They'd have to be some kind of back story there that explains why he'd have no doubt about the non existance of the Maker. It's even less likely for a Mage Hawke given that he has access to the Fade, with all its spirits, demons and godlings.

I think I remember Justice saying in Awakening that he does not know if there is a maker.... so the two are not necessarily connected despite what the chantry might claim... (so a Mage Hawke could not believe in the maker)

[Mecher3k]

allankles wrote...

They'd have to be some kind of back story there that explains why he'd have no doubt about the non existance of the Maker.

You can be atheist and agnostic at the same time.

You can especially be an atheist about a specific god and an agnostic on the concept of god.

So epic fail to you.

[chester013]

gelfie wrote...

@Errant_Knight: Catholicism is not nor ever has been the only choice of religion for people of any period in history.

You didn't have a choice of religion in medieval Europe, you followed however was in charge or suffered the consequences.

Reading though codex entries and playig through the game with in a number of ways, I seems that Bethany is in fact the religious type. She feels bad for "defying the maker" by being outside the circle and is quite accepting of her fate if she joins. So it fits if your Hawke is also quite religious, probably not so much if you play nice guy and a blood mage. Pick spirit healer or sarcasm you'll feel better.

[chester013]

Mecher3k wrote...

allankles wrote...

They'd have to be some kind of back story there that explains why he'd have no doubt about the non existance of the Maker.

You can be atheist and agnostic at the same time.

You can especially be an atheist about a specific god and an agnostic on the concept of god.

So epic fail to you.

Double epic fail, atheism is the rejection of beleif in the existence of deities. One could not call onesself an atheist if you beleived in other gods. "Oh Christianity is whack yo, I'm an atheist. Except for Brhaspati, he's the shizznet." I read it it made no sense, like the people who say they are vegetarians apart from chicken. Like me saying I'm a non smoker except for the 20 marlborough I put away every day.

Did I have a point? I forget.

[Hannibal218]

Well, I am an atheist. I was, however, raised in a devout fundamental christian family. That being said, to this day I still say things like "god works in mysterious ways", "god bless you", or "I swear to god", etc. It's not because I momentarily forget I'm an atheist but that those are the phrases that I associate with certain situations. For example, to me saying "god go with you" means good luck.

[Eternal Phoenix]

You can be an atheist Hawke but as soon as battle starts, Hawke becomes a believer.

Hawke: So as I was saying Seb. I don't believe in The Maker and I'm not convinced by "the less The Maker does, the more he exists" stuff.
*Ninjas jump of off some roofs*
Hawke: Maker help me! MAKER GRANT ME STRENGTH! MAKER! PLEASE!!!
*Ninjas are killed.*
Hawke: Ah, where was I Seb? *Strokes beard* Ah yes. The Maker whom I don't believe in...

Though I don't suppose you can play an atheist in DA where spirits and demons are proven facts. Just so you guys know - Wise human voice in DA:O would often cry "By The Maker" during battle which sounded pretty cool.

[LobselVith8]

Morrigan was an atheist, based on her conversations with Leliana. She actually addressed the issue of magic as well and was firm in her convictions, and said it doesn't presuppose an intelligent design by an absentee father figure.

[Magicman10893]

iOnlySignIn wrote...


Gah. Why can't Hawke be a nice, upstanding Blood Mage who uses Blood Magic to Heal and help people?

I cannot recall a single instance of Blood Magic being used heal anyone. Sure you could use Blood Magic to kill demons (as ironic as that is) and invading bandits or whatever, but the only way to heal with Blood Magic is by stealing the lifeforce of someone else. And on top of that I am pretty sure that only works if the caster is the one in need of health. So, if there is a way to redirect that to a dying person, it would basically be sacrificing someone to save someone else or akin to donating a kidney to someone with dialysis.

Link3521 wrote...


As a side note, Anders is actually an Andrastian himself, he says he believes in the Maker and in Andraste's teachings but he thinks the Chantry has corrupted them and it is now the Chantry the one that is "foul and corrupt" for turning the gift of magic against "His children"

This.


Also, I never remembered my Nice Hawke Mage ever saying "May Andraste guide you." I did hear my Nice Hawke Warrior with the Templar specialization say it plenty of times. And the fact that I sided with Templars whenever I could was very fitting, but was really awkward when I was helping Anders.

[Magicman10893]

Mecher3k wrote...

allankles wrote...

They'd have to be some kind of back story there that explains why he'd have no doubt about the non existance of the Maker.

You can be atheist and agnostic at the same time.

You can especially be an atheist about a specific god and an agnostic on the concept of god.

So epic fail to you.

I want to slap myself in the face for reading this, but that doesn't quite give enough emphasis. Instead I am going slam my face into my desk. 


/facedesk

[Sammyjb]

errant_knight wrote...

It makes perfect sense. He/she's Ferelden and the Maker/Andraste is who human Fereldens worship. Anything else would be highly unusual. That's pretty much the same as wondering why a medieval person was Catholic.

A Cousland in DA:O could be anti-Maker. The same way a Dalish could convert to the Andrastian Chantry.

[Vicious]

Well Angry Hawke says in battle, 'GIVE THE MAKER MY REGARDS!' is he being religious? Or just a badass?

[AngryFrozenWater]

I remember a convo with Merrill after Hawke's mother died in which Hawke was portrayed as a believer by selecting the least aggressive choice. That's unacceptable.

[Conduit0]

You guys do realize you're talking about a loosely medieval fantasy world right? Atheism in its modern form didn't even pop up untill around the 18th century and generally speaking atheist stance is based largely on the lack of emperical evidence of the supernatural. Atheism is thrown right out the window as a possible option in a world where magic, spirits, and demons are an everyday reality. The idea that Hawke isn't atleast somewhat religious giving the setting is utterly ridiculous.

[ToJKa1]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Magicman10893 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...


Gah. Why can't Hawke be a nice, upstanding Blood Mage who uses Blood Magic to Heal and help people?

I cannot recall a single instance of Blood Magic being used heal anyone.

In game, my Hawke often does the following:

(1) Activate Blood Magic

(2) Use Heal on a companion.

It costs me 5~6 Health and gives Aveline or Fenris around +300 Health. It really gives me a sense of heroic sacrifice on my part.

Even better, you can use Spirit Healer skills with Blood Magic

This might however be one of those story/gameplay segregation things.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Conduit0 wrote...

You guys do realize you're talking about a loosely medieval fantasy world right? Atheism in its modern form didn't even pop up untill around the 18th century and generally speaking atheist stance is based largely on the lack of emperical evidence of the supernatural. Atheism is thrown right out the window as a possible option in a world where magic, spirits, and demons are an everyday reality. The idea that Hawke isn't atleast somewhat religious giving the setting is utterly ridiculous.

Catch phrases like "you guys do realize" and an opinion like "utterly ridiculous" doesn't make your case any stronger.

[Maria Caliban]

All Hawkes believe in Andreaste. Only nice Hawke uses it as a battle-cry.

The Angry One wrote...

Whatever do you people do with regards to D&D, where atheists are literally and provably sent to be damned for eternity for not worshipping any of it's two-bit jerk deities.

I DM.