62 réponses à ce sujet

[El Codge]

Has anyone seen Jet-Li's Hero? The bit where two of them go to assassinate the king, but to do so, have to fight through an entire army to get to the palace steps?

That's what I want to feel like towards the end of the game.

You've got no army? Then get the hell out of my way.

Also, what's happened to the Morale system that was in BG2? You've battered a load of goblins and the rest would then run away. Here, a load of night time bandits attack you, you turn them into chunky kibbles and MORE of them jump in. Are they simple or something? They've seen me mince their colleagues and still want to attack me?

Ludicrous.

Modifié par El Codge, 24 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[AkiKishi]

In a game that lets you go anywhere you have 2 choices.

1. Scaling.
2. Kill the party off with high level monsters.

Scaling is ok, but after a bit when every bandit is level 20 it's gets a bit silly. The other option is more "frustrating" anyone who ever crossed the wrong brige in an FF game and got their ass handed to them by something 10 levels higher will attest to that.
Also, if you are able to take the encounter (it can be done) then you effectively break the difficulty curve of the game very easily.

The most sensible option is to just put more thought into the encounter design. It's also the most difficult and time consuming.

[El Codge]

BobSmith101 wrote...

In a game that lets you go anywhere you have 2 choices.

1. Scaling.
2. Kill the party off with high level monsters.

Scaling is ok, but after a bit when every bandit is level 20 it's gets a bit silly. The other option is more "frustrating" anyone who ever crossed the wrong brige in an FF game and got their ass handed to them by something 10 levels higher will attest to that.
Also, if you are able to take the encounter (it can be done) then you effectively break the difficulty curve of the game very easily.

The most sensible option is to just put more thought into the encounter design. It's also the most difficult and time consuming.

The problem with scaling and this game is that this game doesn't really let you go anywhere. Opening a quest effectively opens an instance of a dungeon. Apart from that, there is nothing really to do in an area.

Rather than having enemies scale, just design encounters so that they won't be available to the player until they hit a certain level: You hit level 10, you get Quest X.

Quests can then be designed more appropriately, rather than simply having (as you mentioned) level 20 bandits attacking you.

[AkiKishi]

El Codge wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

In a game that lets you go anywhere you have 2 choices.

1. Scaling.
2. Kill the party off with high level monsters.

Scaling is ok, but after a bit when every bandit is level 20 it's gets a bit silly. The other option is more "frustrating" anyone who ever crossed the wrong brige in an FF game and got their ass handed to them by something 10 levels higher will attest to that.
Also, if you are able to take the encounter (it can be done) then you effectively break the difficulty curve of the game very easily.

The most sensible option is to just put more thought into the encounter design. It's also the most difficult and time consuming.

The problem with scaling and this game is that this game doesn't really let you go anywhere. Opening a quest effectively opens an instance of a dungeon. Apart from that, there is nothing really to do in an area.

Rather than having enemies scale, just design encounters so that they won't be available to the player until they hit a certain level: You hit level 10, you get Quest X.

Quests can then be designed more appropriately, rather than simply having (as you mentioned) level 20 bandits attacking you.

That's similiar to an MMPORG isn't it ? You can go to a quest giver at level 1 and get a "slay rats quests" go to the same one at level 50 and he will send you half way around the world collecting crap to make a super weapon.

That works with quests, but unless you only let people travel in quest areas, then it won't address the wider issue.
Don't know if anyone played EQ ? But the guys who made that put level 34 mobs in the 4-12 zone. You could be sitting staring at the inside of you spell book then be stepped on by a Giant or mauled by a Gryphon.
If we cut to the chase, then the tedious wave encounters serve the same purpose, make you take longer to accomplish a goal. (In EQ you lose XP on death).

[Cutlass Jack]

In my opinion, Scaling is usually the best way to go because it allows player choice (that elusive thing people love complaining they don't have) in what order they do things. Without it they'd be forcing the player along a certain path in all aspects to ensure an even challenge.

Otherwise the player either gets too frustrated by the difficulty they accidently stumbled into, or they find something too late for it to be a challenge at all. I noticed this problem in spades while playing 'Drakensang: The River of Time' the other day.

[El Codge]

BobSmith101 wrote...
That's similiar to an MMPORG isn't it ? You can go to a quest giver at level 1 and get a "slay rats quests" go to the same one at level 50 and he will send you half way around the world collecting crap to make a super weapon.

That works with quests, but unless you only let people travel in quest areas, then it won't address the wider issue.
Don't know if anyone played EQ ? But the guys who made that put level 34 mobs in the 4-12 zone. You could be sitting staring at the inside of you spell book then be stepped on by a Giant or mauled by a Gryphon.
If we cut to the chase, then the tedious wave encounters serve the same purpose, make you take longer to accomplish a goal. (In EQ you lose XP on death).

I've not had much experience with PvE MMOs tbh (Holy acronyms!)

I'm not sure what is going on with this game tbh. It's effectively linear - quests only open up after certain triggers are fired, so Bioware has the right framework to design challenging encounters without level scaling coming into effect. At the moment, it's just the same old enemies, with more HP and DPS.

Again, you are spot on - most of the actual gameplay bits of this title are simply padding to make the story last longer. I'm halfway through my second playthrough. I've turned the combat down to casual so I can effectively skip from cutscene to cutscene and am now enjoying it a lot more.

Exactly the same issue as MGS4.

[El Codge]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

In my opinion, Scaling is usually the best way to go because it allows player choice (that elusive thing people love complaining they don't have) in what order they do things. Without it they'd be forcing the player along a certain path in all aspects to ensure an even challenge.

Otherwise the player either gets too frustrated by the difficulty they accidently stumbled into, or they find something too late for it to be a challenge at all. I noticed this problem in spades while playing 'Drakensang: The River of Time' the other day.

The problem with giving players too much choice initially (in a non-sandbox game) is that they don't have a huge amount to work towards. I'm quite happy to be blocked from an area by a double-hard-bastard until i've built up the skills and stats to defeat it.

Level scaling removes the whole point in levelling in the context of stats. You may as well remove those completely and just have the ability tree to provide the character variety.

Modifié par El Codge, 24 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Grand_Commander13]

arcelonious wrote...

In the end, Dragon Age II is still just a video game, and enemy level-scaling is a gameplay mechanic used to provide consistency with challenge.  For example, I enjoy playing the game on Nightmare, and in turn, I like how the difficulty typically remains consistent throughout the entire game.  Conversely, if my level and armor made the Nightmare difficulty a walk in the park, it would defeat the whole purpose of the mode.

New Vegas's difficulty management kicks Dragon Age 2's in the teeth.

Hawke starts out as a nobody—getting jumped by thugs should only happen to him in the first act.  By act two he's powerful enough that assassins and mercenaries might attack him, while the thugs don't want to mess with someone who got rich by cleaving his way through darkspawn.  By act three the mages and Templars have their full attention on the situation and have their best warriors out there (but would still be supported by the weaker guys you may have fought in act two).

And that's just with the storyline already in place.

[El Codge]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

New Vegas's difficulty management kicks Dragon Age 2's in the teeth.

Hawke starts out as a nobody—getting jumped by thugs should only happen to him in the first act.  By act two he's powerful enough that assassins and mercenaries might attack him, while the thugs don't want to mess with someone who got rich by cleaving his way through darkspawn.  By act three the mages and Templars have their full attention on the situation and have their best warriors out there (but would still be supported by the weaker guys you may have fought in act two).

And that's just with the storyline already in place.

Spot on.

All it would take is a reskin and a name change of the enemy. Like their re-use of the dungeons, they could have at least made an effort to hide the reuse.

Lazy, lazy design.

[DungeonLord]

I'm certain that even in a single city location like Kirkwall a way could have been found to avoid enemy scaling. Saying scaling is the only solution to a confined environment is short sighted and lacks creative vision. Hire me Bioware, and I'll help you ditch the pathetic scaling

[Grand_Commander13]

They can't hire you, because they have to hire me first! I already told them the five-minute solution to their problem, so they know they can trust me to come up with a more elegant solution.

[Gel214th]

I prefer enemies leveling with me in a game, as I value not being tied to a quest path, or limited in where I go. I would also accept swapping enemies with stronger versions as the character levels up. However I understand this would exponentially increase the number of monsters, graphic assets, size of the game, and the QA problems with various monsters with different abilities.

Understanding all this, I have no problem with bandits being more difficult as my player levels up. It's completely understandable that just as I improve, they improve as well. Just as in reality...as the police get Body Armor, the thugs get teflon coated bullets. Same thugs...but they certainly hit harder.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Chruptak wrote...

Remember that auto-scaling enemies are the producers answer to players screaming for more freedom in roaming the game world. So, in a sense we asked for this.

Freedom to roam isn't worth as much if the world corrects for it and protects us from our own folly.

Yes, we may well get scaling because we're also given freedom, but it's simply false to suggest that one requires the other.

And even if you do want to protect the players from running into challenges that are guaranteed to kill them, there are other ways around that.  The game could let the characters run away.  Or the game could offer a much shallower power curve.

Encounter scaling is mandatory under exactly no circumstances.

[Savantz]

I think that the scaling system they use works well in this game. As you level up you gain more tools for the situation. I just got into act3 and the thug gangs in the street are a joke (on hard). So even with scaling the 'trash mobs' still seem like 'trash mobs'. You just can't play completely stupid in a fight. Even with scaling there is a sense of progression and of having an easier time fighting mobs that gave me a harder time before.

[philippe willaume]

Hello
Yes the enemies are scaling up with the level as well In DA II the way you spend char point will affect that feel you have compared to your opponent as stats have a direct influence on damage

Now, since it a level based game and you can choose the order in which you visit area. So it is not really an easy way to do so, it is the only way. Other wise you de facto impose are order of visit to the different area.

There is was around that but then; it is a different type of game where skills are more important than char and where weapon damage is constant as well as vulnerability.
That makes the game more lethal and more tactical than action oriented and the role of magic and potion more delicate to balance.

Phil

[Grand_Commander13]

Of course if Hawke only doubled in power between level one and twenty then you wouldn't need level scaling to balance encounters at the start of an act and the end of an act, but then you wouldn't feel the immense progression of your character by seeing his DPS go up by a factor of twenty while the exact same enemies go down maybe 50% faster.

[Sylvius the Mad]

philippe willaume wrote...

Now, since it a level based game and you can choose the order in which you visit area. So it is not really an easy way to do so, it is the only way. Other wise you de facto impose are order of visit to the different area.

This simply isn't true, and I've explained exactly how a game could allow freedom without level scaling.

BG allowed free exploration, and its scaling was minimal (if there was any at all).  And it did it because the power curve throughout the game was much shallower than we see in games like DAO.

[yarc nathanoj]

Enemy scaling ruins games.

Minor thugs should be easy for a champion and ogres should slaughter a level 1.

I will never buy another game that has enemy scaling again - its in so 10 year olds/idiots can buy the game and play it without thinking.

As long as challenges are reasonably marked as to roughly what level you need then if you choose to take something on you cant win tough luck.

Dragon Age 2 now goes away for me until a mod removing scaling appears.

F**king idiot developers - all that effort for a game thats main aim seems to be that anyone can play it without thinking. Neighbours for the PC.

[bill4747bill]

don't forget that in a game where 'human' enemies are common, it will always be lame when you have 'level 5 guards' and level '25 heroes'

with monsters it works better, but it is always illogical when guards get stronger to match heroes, but if you dont, the alternative is to have one man kill 500 and that's lame as well.

Modifié par bill4747bill, 27 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[Gel214th]

bill4747bill wrote...

don't forget that in a game where 'human' enemies are common, it will always be lame when you have 'level 5 guards' and level '25 heroes'

with monsters it works better, but it is always illogical when guards get stronger to match heroes, but if you dont, the alternative is to have one man kill 500 and that's lame as well.

With humans why is it Lame?

I used the example of the police force getting body armor (increasing in level) and the thugs buying teflon coated bullets (increasing in level as well). It happens in our real life, why would that not be accepted in-game?

I think it's a lot of ado about nothing really

[bill4747bill]

Gel214th wrote...

bill4747bill wrote...

don't forget that in a game where 'human' enemies are common, it will always be lame when you have 'level 5 guards' and level '25 heroes'

with monsters it works better, but it is always illogical when guards get stronger to match heroes, but if you dont, the alternative is to have one man kill 500 and that's lame as well.

With humans why is it Lame?

I used the example of the police force getting body armor (increasing in level) and the thugs buying teflon coated bullets (increasing in level as well). It happens in our real life, why would that not be accepted in-game?

I think it's a lot of ado about nothing really
. 

your example is not what i am refering to    Your example is two level '10' people fighting.
a better example is when the police and thugs both have the same armor and guns, but one cop is able to slaughter 500 thugs.  scaling games generally do this

Modifié par bill4747bill, 27 mars 2011 - 01:33 .

[yarc nathanoj]

Its really simple - dont make the level progression so huge.

even a hero should not be able to slaughter 100 enemies.

Its simple balancing - anyone whos run a RPG campaign will know how to do this.

If the player wants to run round as an elite slaughtering goblins or simple thugs let them - but they get little xp or rewards and soon get bored.

If the player as a starting character chooses to fight a dragon - let them die.

In each act a rough level applies anyway so having several concurrent quests where level can vary by 3-5 would work.

Alternative is current where an act three street thug would rule the world in act 1 - and Dragons who can be killed by weaklings in act1. Its simply absurb.

Good games have a reasonable internal logic and part of immersion is a consistent world with its own believable fantasy.

[elimccl]

Yes. The enemies should have changed. As it is, after becoming an insanely powerful mage and the champion of the city, you're still fighting gangs of hoodlums, some of which apparently are as powerful as dragons.

[Wintermist]

I'm an old-school gamer so I prefer the old way to do RPG's with no scaling. We used to get games that punished us if we ventured into an area we couldn't yet handle. If we was that stupid, well game over to us.

If they have to do scaling atleast have different opponents designed for us. Early on, rogues attack us, but later on those rogues have tougher fighters with them, wearing heavier armour and whatnot.

I remember in Oblivion I wasn't rewarded for getting stronger (until I found a mod to fix it) and it's the same problem here.

Basically what they have done is taken away from the player, responsabilities, thinking we can not by ourselves handle various difficulties in different areas. Killing off players because they ventured into the wrong area is apparantly a thing of the past.

Modifié par Wintermist, 27 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[nopho]

DungeonLord wrote...
 Or try Nehrim, the total conversion for Oblivion. No enemy scaling. Instead they rely on good design.

holy moly THANK YOU i am really in need of a good rpg and played vanilla oblivion/DA:O way too often.



p.s. enemy scaleing..i loved how it was in DA:O where close to the end all darkspawn would be like level 10 or so, that one really gave me the feeling of being the freaking powerful mage warden.