189 réponses à ce sujet

[Darth Obvious]

Sylvianus wrote...

You're wrong to mourn the lack of something that no game has ever achieved ever, atleast not in the way people imagine it. Even Morrowind was no PnP simulator catering for every possible choice, and by the make, bethesda tried.
The thing I have to bring up again and again in these topics is this - you expect something you never had - Previous games, like Origins, didn't have it either. They just *told* you, that your decision would totally matter, and everything would change the second you're out of the zone.
DA2 on the other hand went the opposite, much preferable road of not pretending, but rather giving you reasons*why* your choices didn't matter in the end. (With the exception of "best served cold" admittedly.

I hope you're kidding ?  Dragon Age Origins is the game where I have never seen so many different choices. Countless opportunities that I never suspected in my first game, and I could see when I saw others talking of their choice.

example :. The demon of desire. You can kill her, but ALSO even negotiate or even make love with her.

The son of Isolde, you can slaughter it, you can use the blood magic with Jowan, or Morrigan to save him, you can appeal to the circle of mages. Yet, the same end there too. Redcliffe is calm, with notable differences, such as sacrifice, a murder or is for the better. all is a live even Isolde.

Dalatians, we have the same end, we managed to have their support for the warden.

But the process is completely different depending on individual decisions. You can choose the wolves, you can choose the elves. And even choosing the elves, you can kill Zathrian, or make him admit he was wrong. And he sacrifices himself.

There are plenty of examples like that. Where were you ? When did you bother to play really dao ?
Dao is a game with real choices, the ability to replay a different part is simply magnificent.

There is nothing like that in DA2.

This.

[The dead fish]

But the choice in the end does not bother me at all, but everything is done so that Hawke does nothing, has not decided, does not influate... One purpose may be the same, but radically different in the course.

The choice between the Templars and the Magi, is the only real choice.

Seriously a rpg story, it's just based on the difference in pronunciation of a sentence ?

There are choices in the DA2, they don't affect the plot that much

Where are the choices in DA2 ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 02:44 .

[AlexXIV]

Arppis wrote...
What you expected when the theme of the game was "family and loss"? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

Well if they announced it as such, probably nothing. I wouldn't have bought it either. But the theme was 'Hawke, the Champion of Kirkwall, the rise to power of the most important person of Thedas. The hero with a family.'
That's according to the advertising.

[Aurica]

Sylvianus wrote...

You're wrong to mourn the lack of something that no game has ever achieved ever, atleast not in the way people imagine it. Even Morrowind was no PnP simulator catering for every possible choice, and by the make, bethesda tried.
The thing I have to bring up again and again in these topics is this - you expect something you never had - Previous games, like Origins, didn't have it either. They just *told* you, that your decision would totally matter, and everything would change the second you're out of the zone.
DA2 on the other hand went the opposite, much preferable road of not pretending, but rather giving you reasons*why* your choices didn't matter in the end. (With the exception of "best served cold" admittedly.

I hope you're kidding ?  Dragon Age Origins is the game where I have never seen so many different choices. Countless opportunities that I never suspected in my first game, and I could see when I saw others talking of their choice.

example :. The demon of desire. You can kill her, but ALSO even negotiate or even make love with her.

The son of Isolde, you can slaughter it, you can use the blood magic with Jowan, or Morrigan to save him, you can appeal to the circle of mages. Yet, the same end there too. Redcliffe is calm, with notable differences, such as sacrifice, a murder or is for the better. all is a live even Isolde.

Dalatians, we have the same end, we managed to have their support for the warden.

But the process is completely different depending on individual decisions. You can choose the wolves, you can choose the elves. And even choosing the elves, you can kill Zathrian, or make him admit he was wrong. And he sacrifices himself.

There are plenty of examples like that. Where were you ? When did you bother to play really dao ?
Dao is a game with real choices, the ability to replay a different part is simply magnificent.

There is nothing like that in DA2.

Thank you Sylvanius.  That was exactly how I felt too.  Even though the outcome seems to be largely similar, you still win at the end.  There were different paths to it and had slightly different outcomes. 

[AlexXIV]

My problem is not only that the player does have very limited choices. My problem is that Hawke's streamlined choices are not even his/her. Hawke could do nothing about the qunari uprise and same with the final fight. Hawke was drawn into it at best, but never made any important decisions, not even streamlined ones.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[Gadarr]

AlexXIV wrote...
Hawke's father died in the blight, the Hawkes lost their home in Lothering. One sibling dies. Another sibling may or may not die. The mother dies. Yes, in the mean time somewhere Hawke gains fame and wealth, but it is all lost in the end since Hawke disappears, in the best case with one sibling and the LI. The rest 'who would go through hell with Hawke' leave him/her. And the house in Kirkwall is probably also lost. And Hawke being a legend is probably mostly because of Varric's tales because Hawke him/herself doesn't do one thing that really changes much. Anders is out of Hawke's control, and the qunari uprise could probably also have been stopped by Meredith and her templars. Hawke is, if anything, becoming legendary because he/she has been there and Varric's tale weaving skill.

Obviously, at least his fame is not 'lost' by the end of the game, otherwise the seekers wouldn't desperately go looking for him. Yes, his time in Kirkwall wasn't all sugar sweet (pretty boring otherwise, no?), but the fact still remains that depending on your choices, Hawkes story may or may not end on a brighter note than the general state of the world would imply. That his companions leave him doesn't mean that he couldn't call on them, if need be. That he 'disappeared' doesn't necessarily mean that he's lost everything he accomplished throughout the game. We have no way of knowing, as of yet.

Also, depending on what your Hawke did, his fame may or may not be due to Varrics tales. If your Hawke was a paladin-like type of person who went out of his way to help people instead of being the paid hand of whoever had the coin to spare, and if your Hawke for example did end the Qunari threat pretty much single-handedly, then it stands to reason that his fame is well deserved. If you tried to reach a compromise between templars and Circle but failed, it's quite a different Hawke than the one who does everything he can to break mages free of the Circle when given the opportunity. And so on. Again - it depends on you as the player. Because you do choose what your Hawke's really like. Maybe he indeed doesn't deserve to be called Champion and it's just Varrics stories making him such. But this would have been your decision.

[The dead fish]

Thank you Sylvanius. That was exactly how I felt too.

I personally think that many people had to feel it.^^
Even those who loved dA2. Seriously, it's not hate the game than admit that there is a problem. Do we want the same for the next episode ?

They could have at least one alternative choice. No, not even. Always talk then fight under authoritarian, prescriptive plot line, required by production.

As my girlfriend said, it's not our hero, is an actor who plays in a film, and where it is barely relevant. He is carried by the current and he is useless if it is to beat the Arishak.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[Miashi]

Sylvianus wrote...

Please, tell me where are the choices. ^^

Really? First obvious choice is which sibling you spare at the begging - a forced choice, but still one. I could go on forever, but as I said before, the choices are as meaningful as you wish them to be.

Maybe the story didn't captivate you enough for you to feel like your choices hurt you in your values. I became attached to Bethany, and it was a difficult decision to let her go with the Grey Wardens.

I was not a big fan of the game myself, but it's preposterous to say that there were no choice in the game at all.

DA:O had its array of choices, DA:2 has its array of choice.

Modifié par Miashi, 24 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[Mykel54]

Act II, you attack the keep that is taken by the qunari, what do you do?
1) Take meredith plan, and charge forward
2) Take Orsino plan, and create a distraction to save possible hostages
A pointless decision, because the viscount still dies and the situation is the same.

[Miashi]

Pretty sure I can come up with similar examples in Mass Effect 2.

[skippy1776]

The only choice you have in this game is different dialogue choices... as depressing as that sounds. I am now playing the game being completely evil (opposed to good) and I am shocked at how much the npc will still say the same thing regardless of your choice of dialogue. It is truly depressing.

[Gadarr]

Sylvianus wrote...
They could have at least one alternative choice. No, not even. Always talk then fight under authoritarian, prescriptive plot line, required by production.
 

But there ARE choices to make, that DO matter how things play out. Just not concerning the set 'frame' of the story, and honestly, that wouldn't make much sense at all. Imagine you'd be able to go for a compromise in the end, the whole story would collapse. There'd be no revolt, no chaos, no war, no dire need to find Hawke, therefore the story as it is would never have been told in such a way.

Although at times, it was a bit too obvious, yes. I already mentioned Sister Petrice, which undoubtedly could have been resolved in a more elegant way (after all, she's hardly the only one conspiring against the Qunari), and there are other cases where it felt a bit too forced. But still... that you did not get to fundamentally change the ending is the whole point of the story. It's why it's being told in the first place.

[Clonedzero]

this is a bioware game. its all about the illusion of choice.
DA:O and the ME games are just like that as well.

in DA:O you had to be a grey warden, you had to lose ostagar, you had to recruit morrigan, you had to cure eamon, you had to go into the deep roads, you had to ect.

just cus theres an imaginary choice at the end of some of the quests in DA:O doesnt mean they're significant choices, some of them weren't even logical. like orzimmar, why would an outsider get to pick the next ruler of the dwarves when they didnt even want outsiders to see their political mess, let alone decide it. plus harrowmont vs. bhelen makes absolutely NO difference aside from a pointless epilogue slide at the end.

choices thats only real effect is a tiny epilogue slide at the end, dont really count imo.
also, aside from alistair whining at you, how you deal with connor doesn't matter what so ever. eamon helps you regardless, so what does that choice do? nothing.

i think people are just freaking out that theres no epilogue slides showing the results of your choices and that hawke is actually involved in the story this time so they feel like they should be able to change the story. you couldnt change the story in DA:O, or mass effect either, the main difference is the story would play out exactly the same, if say you were playing as a different person all together.

but i think the main issue with people saying the game has no choices is because theres no epilogue slides confirming their choices at the end.

[Clonedzero]

Mykel54 wrote...

Act II, you attack the keep that is taken by the qunari, what do you do?
1) Take meredith plan, and charge forward
2) Take Orsino plan, and create a distraction to save possible hostages
A pointless decision, because the viscount still dies and the situation is the same.

Redcliffe, you either kill connor or use his mother for blodo magic ritual or unrealistically run all the way to the circle to save everyone for a happy ending, what do you do?

oh right. doesnt matter. eamon still happily helps you either way, only after you're FORCED to go find magical ashes of andraste that everyone doubts actually exists.

[The dead fish]

Act II, you attack the keep that is taken by the qunari, what do you do?
1) Take meredith plan, and charge forward
2) Take Orsino plan, and create a distraction to save possible hostages
A pointless decision, because the viscount still dies and the situation is the same.

Exactly the same thing, there are no dead, consequences. What's the point of proposing two solutions if nothing is changing in? I thought that with the plan of Meredith, there would be civilian deaths.

The only choice you have in this game is different dialogue choices... as depressing as that sounds. I am now playing the game being completely evil (opposed to good) and I am shocked at how much the npc will still say the same thing regardless of your choice of dialogue. It is truly depressing.

I advise everyone to play nice, then a villain, the truth will make you stand out.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 03:17 .

[Miashi]

skippy1776 wrote...

The only choice you have in this game is different dialogue choices... as depressing as that sounds. I am now playing the game being completely evil (opposed to good) and I am shocked at how much the npc will still say the same thing regardless of your choice of dialogue. It is truly depressing.

To this I will agree however.
An example of a dialogue choice that angered me is when you question the prostitude about the missing templar.
She enthralls you and forces you to put a dagger on your neck.

If you bring a mage with you, you can have them intervene and stop her. If the mage stops her, then you can decide to spare her; let her go, get her arrested, or kill her.

If you don't have a mage with you, you have 2 options (I'm not exactly sure of the wording, but it's something like):

Option 1: I will not do this!
Option 2: I will kill you!

Naturally, picking option 2 will make Hawke say something in the line of "I won't do this...!" and then he plunges his dagger into the prostitute's heart. What I was hoping is that option 1 would allow you simply counter her seduction and interrogate her, but option 1 has the very same speech and Hawke also kills the prostitute.

That was dissapointing.

There are still "choices", as I said previsously though, you just "decide" to ignore they are important in your character's development.

Even Mass Effect has dialogs where Shepard says the same thing no matter what you pick in the roulette. I mean, ok, you didn't like the game. But it can't just be because of the "choices" the game had to offer.

Modifié par Miashi, 24 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[The dead fish]

Really? First obvious choice is which sibling you spare at the begging - a forced choice, but still one. I could go on forever, but as I said before, the choices are as meaningful as you wish them to be.

Maybe the story didn't captivate you enough for you to feel like your choices hurt you in your values. I became attached to Bethany, and it was a difficult decision to let her go with the Grey Wardens.

I was not a big fan of the game myself, but it's preposterous to say that there were no choice in the game at all.

DA:O had its array of choices, DA:2 has its array of choice.

I am not against a predetermined main frame, I'd just want letting me how I should proceed to be in progress. And this how I should be, necessarily involves some different decisions, necessarily involves the consequences. According to different choices of the players.

That's why Dao, Mass Effect etc. I have never said anything.

For side quests, I thought that with Fenryl, whether in Dalatians or in the circle, I wish he did not receive the same letter, the same mission, is found in the same situation .

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[sevalaricgirl]

In origins you had choices, 1) keep loghain or kill him; 2) morrigan ritual or Ultimate sacrifice; 3) annul the circle or save it; etc. In DA2 the only real choice is who to romance. Everything else is set in stone.

[MyKingdomCold]

one choice I can think of is if you take Anders and your sibling into the deep roads. You can turn Carver/Bethany into a Grey Warden or kill him/her.

Another choice would be to whether you decided to take Bethany/Carver with you into the deep roads or not. It doesn't change much but it still is a choice.

In the quest "Magistrate's Orders", you can kill his son or have him arrested. If you have the son arrested, the magistrate covers it up and the son ends up killing more elves.

[RiotLaFontaine]

I find that compared to DA:O and the ME series, the illusion of choice in DA2 is visible on the surface. Each dialogue choice leads to a single-sentence response from an NPC dedicated to that choice, but then segues into a canned, universal (often neutral-voice or scene) response.

Even the decisions you DO make have no true lasting impact or branching paths most of the time. For instance, when it comes to Hawke's mother, no matter what you do, the outcome is clearly set. There's no alternate path to catching the killer, no real mystery to be solved that could alter events. You're just "there" to go through the motions.

What's worse is that Hawke plays no role in any of the major events of the game other than killing the Arishok. He does nothing in the Deep Roads (Bartrand plays the only key role) and even at the end of the game, no matter what choice you make, the outcome is identical: Hawke stands as a symbol for the mages EVEN IF YOU SIDE WITH THE TEMPLARS. This clearly contradicts interviews with devs as well as marketing - Hawke is a nobody. Sure, it breaks down the false legend of the Champion, but when it's stated he's the most important figure in Kirkwall, there needs to be some nugget of truth. As we learn, it's Anders who is the pivotal figure, the one who incites change by making a decision.

Modifié par RiotLaFontaine, 24 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[The dead fish]

In origins you had choices, 1) keep loghain or kill him; 2) morrigan
ritual or Ultimate sacrifice; 3) annul the circle or save it; etc

Thank you, it's very important what you said. Loghain this evil man in the main plot, can be join you against archidemon.

A choice I never thought possible. To Betray Allistair and save a potential new warden or make  justice ? It's not a real choice this?
Morrigan and the ritual it's the same. All those who say there is no choice in dao and mass effect as far as da2 are contradicted by the facts.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 24 mars 2011 - 03:37 .

[Gadarr]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

In origins you had choices, 1) keep loghain or kill him; 2) morrigan ritual or Ultimate sacrifice; 3) annul the circle or save it; etc. In DA2 the only real choice is who to romance. Everything else is set in stone.

Arishok: "No."

- Deciding the fate of Feynriel. To the Circle, to the Dalish, made tranquil?
- Allowing Grace to flee or send them back to the Circle, butcher those templars or not?
- Kill the blood mage in the Rose or send her back to the Circle
- Allow Varric to have that piece of the idol or not, allowing Bartrand to live or not
- Hand over Isabella to the Arishok if you previously gained her friendship (which is a choice in and of itself)
- Hand over Fenris to Danarius
- Slaughter the Dalish camp or don't
- Kill the magistrates son or return him into custody
....
.....

It's simply not true that there aren't any choices. They're just not on a scale as grand as in Origins, for the most part. And many don't have an imediate impact that we know of. But then again, the only real 'impact' in terms of gameplay most 'big' choices in Origins had concerned what troops you could summon during the last 30 minutes of the game, so... meh. Also, I guess in Origins, there were more choices that actually felt 'right'. There was a 'good' way to resolve the Connor situation, the werewolf situation and so on. Not so much in DA2...

[Lithuasil]

Sylvianus wrote...

In origins you had choices, 1) keep loghain or kill him; 2) morrigan
ritual or Ultimate sacrifice; 3) annul the circle or save it; etc

Thank you, it's very important what you said. Loghain this evil man in the main plot, can be join you against archidemon.

A choice I never thought possible. To Betray Allistair and save a potential new warden or make  justice ? It's not a real choice this?
Morrigan and the ritual it's the same. All those who say there is no choice in dao and mass effect as far as da2 are contradicted by the facts.

Read what I said (over and over and over again, because no one wants to listen). Origins *claimed* your choices had big impact, where aside from your companions, you don't actually see any effect. You still have that effect on your companions, but DA2 provides you with "in-world" reasons to why you're being railroaded.
I have to help fight the Qunari, because I'm an apostate, and the knight commander just exposed me, and blackmailed me to help. I have to leave the circle and join the grey wardens, because the writers said so.
That's all the difference there is.

[AllThatJazz]

It's always an illusion in CRPG, just done more or less convincingly. I agree that there are more 'But Thou Must' points in DA2 - Bio obviously had a very specific 'world state' they wanted by the time the game ended, and that results in less major choices for the player; but there are smaller, more personal choices aplenty, both DA2 exclusive, and consequences of Origins choices. Which I guess is what the guy meant when he said that the choices are more about shaping Hawke's character than shaping Kirkwall/the world.


 In DA2


You can end up killing certain companions or not (Anders, Fenris)
Assuming Isabela returns to you after running away, you can keep her around or give her to the Arishok, thereby resolving the Qunari questline peacefully.
You can kill the Dalish clan or not
You can let the Paedophile in Act one live or not, and you see how that plays out in Act 2 (I think, I'm only just replaying that bit now)
Your sister/brother can die of the taint/become a Templar or Circle Mage/become a Grey Warden. So be able to join in the final battle or not.
You can choose how the Feynris quest ends

Origins consequences

Nathaniel quest if he survived Awakening and the Architect was spared
Dalish/former werewolf quest
Zevran appearance (okay, this is bugged, but hopefully will be fixed soon)

I don't think that's all of them, but I need to go and start dinner ...

Edit: 'd by Gadarr x

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 24 mars 2011 - 03:51 .

[azarhal]

Miashi wrote...

skippy1776 wrote...

The only choice you have in this game is different dialogue choices... as depressing as that sounds. I am now playing the game being completely evil (opposed to good) and I am shocked at how much the npc will still say the same thing regardless of your choice of dialogue. It is truly depressing.

To this I will agree however.
An example of a dialogue choice that angered me is when you question the prostitude about the missing templar.
She enthralls you and forces you to put a dagger on your neck.

If you bring a mage with you, you can have them intervene and stop her. If the mage stops her, then you can decide to spare her; let her go, get her arrested, or kill her.

If you don't have a mage with you, you have 2 options (I'm not exactly sure of the wording, but it's something like):

Option 1: I will not do this!
Option 2: I will kill you!

Naturally, picking option 2 will make Hawke say something in the line of "I won't do this...!" and then he plunges his dagger into the prostitute's heart. What I was hoping is that option 1 would allow you simply counter her seduction and interrogate her, but option 1 has the very same speech and Hawke also kills the prostitute.

That was dissapointing.

Are you sure you didn't pick the wrong dialog choices, because I didn't kill her in my 1st playthrough and I picked the first one and there was no mage companions in my group. Although, I was playing a mage...