189 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

Many people agree with you Sylvianus, even if not all bother to post. I enjoyed DA2 as a whole, but in this particular aspect i was very disappointed (more than the reuse of places). I felt tricked to see possible options that my character could take, that in the end would not matter at all. This was not so in origins nor in many of the recent bioware games (ME and ME2 included). Even if in origins the consequences of your choices were not all present in the game (but in the epilogue), still you felt like your character was making a difference in the world, shaping ferelden while he/she was gathering forces to stop the blight. That, plus the origins, made sure that DAO had a great deal of replayability. DA2 suffers from both a lack of origins (an ok price if the rest makes up for it) and a lack of meaningful choices, i was most disappointed to see how little my character had an effect in shaping any events: anders, the idol, bartrand, isabela etc. all of them had more influence in the history than hawke. I don´t know why bioware changed the approach they had in origins, it was almost perfect, giving you choices that were mostly superficial yes, but still you feel attached to them (like i like anora better than alistair, or i want golems in my army), in DA2 there is nothing to feel attached to, other than the companions which i have to admit are quite good. The game does not fail in every aspect, but in this one, it seriously missed my expectations.

[Sylvianus]

Thank you Mikel. ^ ^

It's nice to see someone who loved the game like me, is also able of expressing its disappointment at a vital part of rpg which is lacking. We must save this precious element of rpg. Otherwise it's bloody, it's over.

We must save Bioware. We must save DA3, we must save Ryan's soldier. Oops sorry, I digress.

Seriously the ability to replay is severely affected. Only the combat system with the different classes allows me to start a game again.

I started again more than a dozen times M1, M2 and DAO.

If I count all parts unfinished, I have about fifty different. How many times I replay DA2 ? Surely no more than three times thanks only to fight. There isn't almost not difference in story. Our decisions no matter really, affect almost nothing, we just follow.

I never had to complain in this area, and yet here, I feel really cheated.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 01:39 .

[Lithuasil]

Speaking as someone who played through DA2 four times (in a row) - how did you manage to sit through the fades and the godawful chore that is orzammar/deep roads more then once? And where exactly was the replayability in origins, because I must've missed it :|

[Sylvianus]

And where exactly was the replayability in origins,

It is very simple. Explore all possible decisions, explore all different ways, and especially to embody a different role.

Whenever I was sure I did everything in dao, I learned that there were new opportunities. Always surprised, I love being surprised.I never thought you could get with wolves, call a circle of mages when I chose blood magic, negotiate with the devil of desire. Each milestone has several alternate endings, not a single directive.

Save the circle or not, or choose between Harrowmont and Belhen, or to make  the ritual sacrifice or not. Allistair exile, choose who is king, kill Logain or not.

3 races, 6 Origin. It already encourages replay. Is not it wonderful for the imagination than to play once an elf, a dwarf after, then a human? For me it was. Dao, offers enormous opportunities to play roles. To create stories.

I played an elf anti-human, an . A warden anti-mage, blood mage that killed everything that was put in his path and its mission, sadistic and perverse. (all the bad choices) A female city elfe warden completely naive and utterly charming. There is so much possibility.

Why I replay ? Because there are choices, consequences, our decisions affect our world, where at least there is a possibility of individuality.

I can not understand those who say that in bioware games, there was never any real choice.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Lithuasil]

So there's six origins, each about half an hour. I did that.
And then there's doing the exact same levels each time, and in the end choosing either the Saint or the villain pokemon, for the final fight in denerim. There's no roleplaying in the entire game (given that I am mentally simply not capable to roleplay anyone retarded enough to join the grey wardens), and the only thing of slight replay value can easily be emulated by saving before the final cutscene ensues. Because it's not like anything else changes.

[Sylvianus]

I began to doubt myself, but that's for sure. you don't play DA for roleplay.

The game amuses you, that's all. It would be an action game, it would be exactly the same for you. If it amuses you, good for you. But you don't make the difference between an adventure game and a rpg where you do multiple choice. The game would be linear and without any decision, you don't care. You don't ask to have your choices, your hero,  you can get satisfied with a single line.

Da2 would be as linear as CoD, you'd be happy.

From there, there's nothing left to say, I am afraid.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 12:12 .

[Gamer Ftw]

Khayness wrote...

Best Served Cold.

'nuff said. I had to kill loads of reasonable templars and mages as a mage supporter.

Omg I hated that It ruined my whole rp thing.

[Lithuasil]

Sylvianus wrote...

I began to doubt myself, but that's for sure. you don't play DA for roleplay.

The game amuses you, that's all. It would be an action game, it would be exactly the same for you. If it amuses you, good for you. But you don't make the difference between an adventure game and a rpg where you do multiple choice. The game would be linear and without any decision, you don't care. You don't ask to have your choices, your hero,  you can get satisfied with a single line.

Da2 would be as linear as CoD, you'd be happy.

From there, there's nothing left to say, I am afraid.

From the moment where not one, but several monumentally stupid decisions are forced on me (like origins did), makes any honest roleplaying of a character that isn't suicidal, crazy, retarded or a combination thereof impossible. Both games were completely linear. The difference is, DA2 was smart about it. Rather then railroading me as the player (i.e simply not allowing me to make the decisions a sane person would make) they railroad Hawke as a character, by putting her in a situation where the choices I'm presented with are the only reasonable ones. That's why I can roleplay in DA2, where I cannot, in origins.

May I ask what your mothertongue is, by the way?

[Sylvianus]

You don't take the problem properly. This is not about stupid decisions or not, superhero or not. Reasonable or not. It is a question of allowing different interpretations of history according to what the player wants to play his character, it's still the fundamental purpose of a rpg. Why allow the various dialogues ? Just to make a different sentence ?

There is no real decisions in DA2, that's what you don't understand. Whatever you decide, viciously it will make you understand that your decision is ignored, is the same conclusion. example with sir Varnell and qunaris.

it is absolutely worthless to believe play a role, since there is only one line in the conduct and progress of the adventure.

And you have to tell me what game for you is not linear, because I do not follow you at all.

May I ask what your mothertongue is, by the way ?

French.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 12:44 .

[Lithuasil]

Ah - while I speak a few words, I fear I won't be able to make this conversation any more comfortable switching :|

That being said - it's not a lack of choice you mourn. It's a lack of impact. What it boils down to, is whether roleplaying to you is being the savior of the land, who single handedly succeeds in fixing every problem (you seem to like this, others do, I've never understood it), or if you prefer to play a relatively ordinary person, that get's entangled in extraordinary events and tries to make it through unscathed. You know, like it happens in boring old real life. That's the roleplaying I prefer, the one where you play relateable human beings, with emotions and weaknesses and all that. And that's what DA2 gave me.

[Sylvianus]

No impact, almost all the time, so no choice. That why i said that. it's an illusion, the weel is useless. This is not about whether realistic or not, there are plenty of realistic decisions they could afford.They didn't.

You prefer to translate it like you said, I'll quote what I think.

everything has been done to prevent Hawke to decide anything, to follow a strict linearity, just it decided to pretend to give a choice, which is actually ignored. That's it a matter of gameplay, not because supposedly nothing happens the way we want in life.

But I think we agree that DA2 is a game very linear. We like it or not.

For me, it's a bad rpg, with a low potential for replayability, but it's still a good game, even if it is the worst. But if DA3 also follows the same linear path in this field, I will keep my money for an action game or adventure.

I think that major changes would have been much more accepted if they hadn't been accompanied by the great regression in some areas very important which have contributed to so much disappointment.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 01:01 .

[Volourn]

Lack of Impact: the whole Isebella questline has lots of impact. The choices you make with the kidnapped mage turned intodreasmscape impacts in 3rd act. Your chocies with Merill's quests can potentially lead to wiping out the Dalish. Your chocies can lead to avoiding encounters which can lead to further quests (or close threads off). Your choices can reuinte a father and daughter or tear them apart for ever. Your chocies can lead to rdemption of sinners, or damnation of the innocent.

Choices and consequences are everywhere in DA2.

But, yeah, everyone whines about the fact that the 'end bosses' never change and while I agree it be cooler if your chocies can lead to avoiding at least one of those fights it seems hypocritical to whine about that yet praise DA1 for its C&C when NO MATTER WHAT you choose you will ALWAYS fight and kill the archdemon. NO MATTER WHAT!! You will ALWAYS murder the hive mother, you will ALWAYS save the arl, you will ALWAYS name the new dwarven king, you will ALWAYS be forced into the wardens.

L0L L0L L0L L0LliP0P

The whole DA1 > DA2 contigent is HILARIOUS when it comes to the whole C&C thing. HA!

[Sylvianus]

where are the individual consequences ? Many consequences weren't born of a difference of choice in the wheel, but just one decision of Hawke.

There are decisions in relation to the companions, yes... is still happy. We talk about a bioware game anyway.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 25 mars 2011 - 01:09 .

[sgreco1970]

Lithuasil wrote...

Did we really need a third post about this on the front page? Your point doesn't get more valid because you post it more often, y'know?

nor does yours

[Lithuasil]

sgreco1970 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Did we really need a third post about this on the front page? Your point doesn't get more valid because you post it more often, y'know?

nor does yours

Considering validity is a binary thing, and I'm right in the first place, my opinion technically can't get anymore valid :|

[Chuvvy]

Khayness wrote...

Best Served Cold.

'nuff said. I had to kill loads of reasonable templars and mages as a mage supporter.

THIS! WHAT THE **** BIOWARE? WHY CAN'T I TELL PEOPLE NOT TO KILL ME BECAUSE WE SUPPORT THE SAME ****ING CAUSE!? AND THAT I ALSO VERY WILLING TO HELP THEM! EVEN AFTER YOU EXPLAIN TO THEM THAT YOU WANT TO HELP THEY TRY TO KILL YOU! Also I'd argue Grace was unreasonable.

[Astara_]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well after DA:O It's no big surprise people 'miss' all the choices we had there.

But if you compare for example ME2 to DA2. You didn't have much more choices in ME. Basically only the companion related quests.

This is a VERY good point ... and one I've thought about and commented on -- and the big difference.

This is a FANTASY ADVENTURE , and it is to be **enjoyable**.

What do I mean.

1) This is too much like real-life history -- discrimination by christians against magic users -- the inquisition, the death of any accused of practicing magic.  It's the worst of the worst.  

I play to get *AWAY* from this fracked up world... I don't need a worse version of it delivered down my throat.

I think most people LIKE MAGIC and magic users -- or they wouldn't be into fantasy...they *like dragons and the idea of intelligent dragons is fun -- it's only in Christian Mythology that dragons are evil creatures that need to be slain.

Demons?  A *pure* Christian created creature.   "Blood magic, "bad"..  HAHAHAHA....

Go play "Divinity-II-the Dragon Knight Saga.   There, you start out as a dragon knight hunter, only to realize the dragons were framed and are the wise beasts that created our world.  One magic spell is to tap into health to incrase mana.  It's not evil -- its what we do in this world all the time -- how many people stay up all night to study (increasing their mental test mana) or over extend their 'stamina' by dipping into their health reserves.   Do it some and it's no big deal -- but if you over do it, you can fall into exhaustion.   But some evil to be feared?!?  Give me a break!

The word Demon came from the same root as daemon, deus, Zeus, Dijinn -- they were beings of 'light'.

Under Christianity, all of the gods of other religions and all of the words for mystical beings became synomyms for evil.   Evil was a Christian creation as was hell (the Jews didn't have it). 

Even in this game, the portrayals of the "First ones" are completely at odds with their origins and totally in line with a Christian perspective.

They want what we have, and we want what they have -- (grass is always greener)....  Anyone with a half a brain could see there's great opportunity for both sides to win and benefit without all the trauma and harm.

The actions of the demons that are played out in this game make no sense.

Thye want to live out through humans -- yet every single time they posess one they go on a killing spree and make their presense known like a flashing beacon.


If they really wanted to live in 'this world', they'd work with the human they dealth with so they wouldn't be 'known' -- both would work to help each other with the 'first ones' learning humanity from humans, and the human learning 'whatever' -- or just playing host ("I am legion...and oh what fun we have! :-))...   But the demons aren't 'dumb -- they step over the bounds of what is permitted in human culture, their host (and maybe they) are going to be hunted down and exterminated, so their whole portrayal is right up their with the all the 'mages' in act-III that attack Hawke -- completely stupid and inane.

What was up with Orsino's big flip?   All he did was attack his friends.   He didn't go after Meradith -- which would have made sense.   He attacks us!... 

And as for choices?  If you want to fight the ***one*** arch-boss in the game, that's meradith.  So it seems like you have to side against her if you want that option (for which you are rewarded by being locked in your house alone -- even without your love-companion!).


If you want to make a idfference, stop writing here and write on game sites and place where you purchase the game -- write thorough reviews as to why this game sucks so much compared to alternatives like DA-I,DA-I.5, Mass Effect, DivinityII, Oblivion....etc.


Work on making sure the sales stop, as that's the only way you'll get the dev's attention -- all the whining here, it's blowing off steam -- literally.

IT's a steam-release valve to keep it from blowing up elsewhere.

I really don't think anything we write here makes a whit of diffference -- since they know -- that if we write here -- we already paid out for the game.

So why should they listen to us?   We'll like just buy the follow-on to find out how this ends -- because this was so bad, we just have to hope that it will be made good -- though even there, they should give half-off coupons to anyone who purchased this game @ full price thinking it was a full game and not just a half a story.

As for the ME comparisons -- there, we fought bad guys -- in this one, we are the bad guys, or at best, standing with the underdogs and being punished for it every step of the way -- from Anders betrayal, mom's death, death of first sibling, removal of 2nd sibling.... removal of tons of game options...and graphics that are a step down from DAI/DA-1.5...

I complained about lack of choice in ME-- but here it is worse because the choices are all bad and worse that make no difference, at least there, you had a chance to fight for good or not so good and have it make no difference -- it left you feeling better whereas this game left me in tears at the end -- it left me so empty...

it was horrible!

[Gabey5]

all rpgs are linear to some degree, you cannot change major events

[TillyBomas]

Gabey5 wrote...

all rpgs are linear to some degree, you cannot change major events

True.  My Favorite RPG for the PC has to be Arcanum.  Now, its a top down view, but the choices in the game seem to have an impact, and its actually possible to 'lose' the game.  Now, it has a linier story, a driving plot, and key events you can not miss.  Even if you know precisly where the Elves of Quintarra are, you will be unable to get access to it until some other events happen.  There is plent yof side quests you can do. 

Now, I think one of the problems people are having IS the epiloge.  I mean, true... DAO I kill Connor, and the mother, and I get helped and rewarded.  I save everyone, same ending.  No REAL consiquence until the Epiloge.  THATS where I learn just what my choices have done to the world.

The whole "this is a stepping stone to DA3".  I hate this.  I understand the need for story, and the need for resale potental, but to make a game SOLE purpose for a jump start on another?  BS.  Also, I did not enjoy DAA very much, and I played through it twice. 

However, Computer Games are just that.  Pen and Paper, is really the only 'true' open ended RPG.  Even if a company spent years and a fortune making a huge 10 disc double sided RPG game where almost every choice you make has a long and short term consiquense, it would STILL be limited based on the programming.  Now, not to say, I think that MORE could be added, but I think some peoples expectations were that because your in one city, and its focused on one man, that the one man's choices would truly shape the world around you.

I agree, this really isn't the case.  The Best Served Cold argument is the most drastic.  The last battle where Orso turns into a demon is another.  I agree, that the Demons in DAO seemed a bit more intellegent, but then, they were not EVERYWHERE.  However i Do believe that Kirkwall is closer to the Imperium, where mages rule.. so this might be more acceptable. 

[Pileyourbodies]

Maybe they're being realistic? Just because you make a choice and make a persuasive arguement doesn't mean you'll presaude people. Look at what those NPCs class is, they're fanatics, zealots. You cannot persuade zealots(Like mage supporters!) no matter what you say they don't listen to reason they just want their cause brought forward.

Patrice...well yeah ok thats a bit silly considering hawke should have been able to atleast say no to her.

[TillyBomas]

Well, having an apostate Sister I was a semi Mage supporter. I was fine with free mages, but as soon as they practiced Blood Magic, they were slain (Well, except Merril, because you can't kill her.)

Hell, DA 1 I hated the Chantry, and had to Kill Lianna and Wyn due to the desicration of Andraste's ashs. However, I did keep the Circle intact. Humans and City Elves are not good at keeping to magical traditions not like the Dalish.

But, anyhow... This game, I am going to be a big Anti-mage Rogue. I will slay and kill mages where ever they be. However sadly, this will have no effect on anything, as the game will still boil down, and I will STILL need to do quests for Orso... ect.

[Kartikeya]

The main complaint I'm seeing is less 'there were no choices!' and more 'I can't control what other characters choose to do'. A major theme of this game appears to be that Hawke, this larger than life legendary figure, was, in fact, an actual person caught up in events larger than him/her.

...I got that from the pre-release hype, so, hey.

You folks asking for a sandbox a la New Vegas? Hey, I love sandbox games, but Bioware has never made a sandbox game like that. They have never had a game where you could suddenly kill anyone you felt like. You were not able to kill Irenicus in the beginning of BG2. You were never able to off Malak even if you were kicking his ass on the Leviathan. You can't murder the whole Jedi council and join Malak either. You can't kill Loghain in his Ostagar tent, you can't tell Duncan to bugger off, you can't force Alistair out of your party (at least until the plot says you can), you can't save Aribeth's whiny hubby from an unfair execution and prevent her turning, you can't save both teammates on Virmire, you can't join Saren, you can't tell the Illusive Man what to go do with his cigarettes, and Harbinger is always going to be ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

People are complaining about lack of power rather than choice. And yes. You aren't an all powerful god and you can't drive the plot off the rails in DA2 or force NPCs to do what you want. Sorry?

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Sylvianus wrote...


No impact, almost all the time, so no choice. That why i said that. it's an illusion, the weel is useless. This is not about whether realistic or not, there are plenty of realistic decisions they could afford.They didn't.

This. If a choice has no impact then there's little point in been given the choice except to give us the illusion of choice. Dragon Age 2 is a game that makes you think you have more choice and impact on the game than you really do. But if you play through the game more than once with different choices you soon realise that your choices didn't really have the far-reaching changes that you thought they did. I remember Bioware saying you'll see the effects and changes of your choices over the years, but that's not really true. Very little of what you do changes anything.

Modifié par ZaroktheImmortal, 25 mars 2011 - 06:09 .

[Zenstrive]

you need money, you escort a harmless qunari. money. bam!

[Eterna]

Sylvianus wrote...


But the choice in the end does not bother me at all, but everything is done so that Hawke does nothing, has not decided, does not influate... One purpose may be the same, but radically different in the course.

The choice between the Templars and the Magi, is the only real choice.

Seriously a rpg story, it's just based on the difference in pronunciation of a sentence ?

There are choices in the DA2, they don't affect the plot that much

Where are the choices in DA2 ?

 In act Three during the quest "On the Loose" you must find an Orlesian Circle Mage named Emil,
 Upon finding him you have 3 choices, help him escape, send him back to the circle or have him killed by Templers.  

 There is choice. Now shut yer trap.