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[nubbers666]

Khayness wrote...

Best Served Cold.

'nuff said. I had to kill loads of reasonable templars and mages as a mage supporter.

ya even out spoken against the knight captin  and amount of mages i saved or rescuded i am still considered an ally of hers and they still kidnapp some 1 close to me

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Eterna5 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


But the choice in the end does not bother me at all, but everything is done so that Hawke does nothing, has not decided, does not influate... One purpose may be the same, but radically different in the course.

The choice between the Templars and the Magi, is the only real choice.

Seriously a rpg story, it's just based on the difference in pronunciation of a sentence ?

There are choices in the DA2, they don't affect the plot that much

Where are the choices in DA2 ?

 In act Three during the quest "On the Loose" you must find an Orlesian Circle Mage named Emil,
 Upon finding him you have 3 choices, help him escape, send him back to the circle or have him killed by Templers.  

 There is choice. Now shut yer trap.

And does this choice actually do anything? Where's the major impact of making that choice? None? Didn't think so.

[Eterna]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


But the choice in the end does not bother me at all, but everything is done so that Hawke does nothing, has not decided, does not influate... One purpose may be the same, but radically different in the course.

The choice between the Templars and the Magi, is the only real choice.

Seriously a rpg story, it's just based on the difference in pronunciation of a sentence ?

There are choices in the DA2, they don't affect the plot that much

Where are the choices in DA2 ?

 In act Three during the quest "On the Loose" you must find an Orlesian Circle Mage named Emil,
 Upon finding him you have 3 choices, help him escape, send him back to the circle or have him killed by Templers.  

 There is choice. Now shut yer trap.

And does this choice actually do anything? Where's the major impact of making that choice? None? Didn't think so.

 OP wanted choice, there's choice. It doesn't have to be important.

Modifié par Eterna5, 25 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Eterna5 wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


But the choice in the end does not bother me at all, but everything is done so that Hawke does nothing, has not decided, does not influate... One purpose may be the same, but radically different in the course.

The choice between the Templars and the Magi, is the only real choice.

Seriously a rpg story, it's just based on the difference in pronunciation of a sentence ?

There are choices in the DA2, they don't affect the plot that much

Where are the choices in DA2 ?

 In act Three during the quest "On the Loose" you must find an Orlesian Circle Mage named Emil,
 Upon finding him you have 3 choices, help him escape, send him back to the circle or have him killed by Templers.  

 There is choice. Now shut yer trap.

And does this choice actually do anything? Where's the major impact of making that choice? None? Didn't think so.

 OP wanted choice, there's choice. It doesn;t have to be important.

Their point clearly wasn't that choice was non-existent but more of the illusion of choice. Most of the choices you get no matter what you do pretty much everything turns out the same. Especially with the choices that seem like big important choices to the game like moments that really matter, but no matter what you do it turns out the same. So it's not the lack of choice, but more the illusion of choice. That it gives you choices but most of them won't change anything.

[Miashi]

I honestly think that people feel like they had less choice because the way choices were presented was not as appealing as it should've been.

By that I mean, when you look at a game that "feels" more choices were given to a player like Mass Effect 2, well when you look at it really carefully, the base structure was linear, with "flavor" choices that were very well integrated to the game.

Let's take for example the loyalty missions. Loyalty missions in ME2 had a renegade and a paragon counterpart. Finishing the loyalty mission, regardless which side of the coin you decided to go, didn't really matter in the end: if you finished the mission, you had your companion loyalty and that was it.

The thing is, the missions were fun, good and felt engaging. I believe that the core problem was that most of the quests or subquests weren't polished enough to feel engaging in DA:2. There were some quests in Dragon Age 2 that felt unfinished, or needed more bling to be appealing.

When you look at Dragon Age 2 from a dungeon master's perspective, you get that kind of feeling that you're being led by a dungeon master that's not very experienced. I mean - a good dungeonmaster will lead their players into his/her storyline while keeping them under the impression that they are running the show (yes, the illusion of choice). I believe that contrary to the better Bioware games, the illusion of choice was not concealed well enough in DA:2.

Modifié par Miashi, 25 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

When you look at Dragon Age 2 from a dungeon master's perspective, you get that kind of feeling that you're being led by a dungeon master that's not very experienced.

Allow me to disagree - DMing a great drama in which the party is merely involved, but engaged on an emotional level, takes a hundred times more skill from the DM then doing the classic "heroes save world from dragon, then cake" dungeoncrawl. (And feels a hundred times more rewarding for all involved.)

[Foolsfolly]

Let's take for example the loyalty missions. Loyalty missions in ME2 had a renegade and a paragon counterpart. Finishing the loyalty mission, regardless which side of the coin you decided to go, didn't really matter in the end: if you finished the mission, you had your companion loyalty and that was it.

I understand what you're saying but that's not completely accurate. You can complete a few Loyalty quests and still not earn the character's loyalty. Tali's one of them, so was Thane and I believe there was someone else but since there's no reason to not have Loyalty I've forgotten just who.

Samara?

I know what you're saying, I just felt the need to clarify.

And you really can't argue that quests were finished. There's that entire quest in Act 3 on the Wounded Coast that you can't do anything about. The whole quest is broken and cannot start, and despite that there wasn't even a patch on day one to suggest that BioWare even knew the quest was broken after they went gold. That screams that the game wasn't tested enough and the multitude of glitches just underscore that point.

Glitches, bugs, reused levels...it all takes away from the fresh and vibrant feeling that ME2 missions (and especially the Loyalty quests which were great). Which ties into your illusion of choice argument.

[Miashi]

We'll have to disagree indeed because I there aren't many quests that got me emotionally engaged. The voice acting had a lot to do with it for me.

Which one is the most convincing?
This:
or
This:

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

We'll have to disagree indeed because I there aren't many quests that got me emotionally engaged. The voice acting had a lot to do with it for me.

Which one is the most convincing?
This:
or
This:

You my friend, are being intellectually dishonest, comparing a scene from minute five of the tutorial mission to a scene that takes roughly six to seven hours to reach. 
But to answer your question with a somewhat fair example - 
The death of one sibling early on, especially since it's addressed later on, *does* carry more emotionality, than say Tamlens death in the Dailish origin.
Just as the talk you have with bethany when she dies in the deep roads has about a hundred times the emotional impact of the connor/isolde scene. Those people - I don't know them, didn't get to know them, and will have forgotten about them about two missions from now. Bethany, I just spent six hours chatting with her, fighting by her side. In that moment, it feels like someone close to me is dying, as opposed to "some npc has family drama".

[Miashi]

What I'm trying to convey here is that we're talking about a family death. Someone's children, someone's brother just died. Yet there's no tear, no loud crying, nothing. Hawke's family is plagued with death and horrors, yet everyone is like "oh yeah it sucks that carver/bethany dies".

A scene with a NPC I don't care about grabbed me emotionally more than a scene where a sibling died. It doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying here.

Edit: I get that they're in a situation where they can't stay around for long, but yet, this trend continue in the game later on with the other family members. There's no way the whole Hawke's family is a bunch of cold-hearted people that can't shed a tear when someone dies.

Modifié par Miashi, 25 mars 2011 - 11:25 .

[Arrtis]

Darth Obvious wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Our choices shape Hawke, rather then shaping Kirkwall.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've read yet today.

More like we get different dialogue.But everything plays out almost exactly the same.
Considering this is all being told by a person.
Chances are all the small details are wrong.
I bet Bioware just wants to avoid a huge mess of things to import.

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

What I'm trying to convey here is that we're talking about a family death. Someone's children, someone's brother just died. Yet there's no tear, no loud crying, nothing. Hawke's family is plagued with death and horrors, yet everyone is like "oh yeah it sucks that carver/bethany dies".

A scene with a NPC I don't care about grabbed emotionally more than a scene where a sibling died. It doesn't make sense. That's what I'm saying here.

I don't know if you've ever been in a real combat scenario. What I can say, is that I've been in rather well simulated ones, and had trouble not soiling my undergarments, even knowing full well everything was a game. When Facing down an ogre, any half sane person would be too pumped on adrenaline to have any emotions beyond "still alive, still alive, still alive".

Also - you're still not being honest - at the point of the game that you nag on, it has had no chance to establish the characters (just as say the couslands dying is real tragic but no one cares, and your brother survives the blight in a shack in the forest).

Modifié par Lithuasil, 25 mars 2011 - 11:25 .

[NedPepper]

scyphozoa wrote...

Not being able to kill Sister Patrice made me cringe and made me realize how much I appreciate sandbox games like Fallout New Vegas.

I dont put up with bull**** lip from NPCs. Bioware should make a sandbox so when NPCs give me **** I can just kill them on the spot. Works great in Fallout NV, nothing I love more than wiping out entire factions. And there is no greater consequence than changing the political and social landscape of a game by removing factions and npc leaders, and specifically, quests and story arcs exclusive to that faction. Now that is a consequence.

Please Bioware, go make a no-romance sandbox rpg.

Why would they make that game?  Just to copy Bethesda's formula?  What makes Bioware great is that they have their own formula, and, for the most part, it works.  It doesn't mean every game is the same, but there's a "feel" to Fallout and Oblivion and a "feel" to ME and Dragon Age.  Even though the genres are totally different.

In other words, if I want to play a game like Fallout New Vegas...I'll play Fallout: New Vegas.

[Miashi]

Ugh you're missing my whole point here.
I'm saying that the voice acting in DA:O conveyed the sentiments in a better way than the voice acting in DA:2 did.

I know and I agree that a parent's, a sibling death has a bigger emotional toll, it SHOULD. But the voice acting doesn't charge any emotion in DA:2 and that completely kills the mood. I'm being honest. Are you sure you play this game with sound on?

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

Ugh you're missing my whole point here.
I'm saying that the voice acting in DA:O conveyed the sentiments in a better way than the voice acting in DA:2 did.

I know and I agree that a parent's, a sibling death has a bigger emotional toll, it SHOULD. But the voice acting doesn't charge any emotion in DA:2 and that completely kills the mood. I'm being honest. Are you sure you play this game with sound on?

Have you played the game past the tutorial? Hell, by the time you get to the final dialogue with Leandra as she dies, not only my hawke, but *I* was near tears.

[Arrtis]

Il admit the leandra dying was a shock.
I totally expected her to survive when I first started the quest.

[NedPepper]

Lithuasil wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Ugh you're missing my whole point here.
I'm saying that the voice acting in DA:O conveyed the sentiments in a better way than the voice acting in DA:2 did.

I know and I agree that a parent's, a sibling death has a bigger emotional toll, it SHOULD. But the voice acting doesn't charge any emotion in DA:2 and that completely kills the mood. I'm being honest. Are you sure you play this game with sound on?

Have you played the game past the tutorial? Hell, by the time you get to the final dialogue with Leandra as she dies, not only my hawke, but *I* was near tears.

Same here.  I don't think I've ever been as immersed into a game as that moment.  The only other moment I can think of is ME 2, and I'm not trying to sound like a Bioware fanboy.  But when Tali finds her father....the reason you feel it is because you have spent, literally, hours and hours with these characters.

[Miashi]

"Did you find her"
"I'm sorry uncle, she's gone."

Just this part makes me angry every time I hear it. I would read it in a book and yes, I'd definitely cry. It is a sad moment. But the way it was acted in the game is terrible. No long silence. He just says "I'm sorry uncle, she's gone." and there is no emotional tone in his/her voice. No sadness, nothing. No whimpering. No sigh. How can Hawke be so heartless?

This is what I'm trying to say. The voice acting was not engaging. There was no emotion carried. That's why it didn't feel as sad as it should've been.

Modifié par Miashi, 25 mars 2011 - 11:52 .

[Lithuasil]

When a game has me at the brink of tears, that doesn't mean it could be more engaging - but saying it would be less engaging then Origins, when the only emotional impact that game had on me was "Oh please, not the ****ing deep roads again"... that's pretty ridiculous you know?

[Miashi]

You're just avoiding my point. I'm *agreeing* with you that the family's death is tragic and it's sad, I hated it too. But I'm saying that through the voice acting this could've been even better.

Ultimately I'm saying that DA:O had better quality in its voice acting and made some meaningless moments better because the actors were believable.

Modifié par Miashi, 25 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...

You're just avoiding my point. I'm *agreeing* with you that the family's death is tragic and it's sad, I hated it too. But I'm saying that through the voice acting this could've been even better.

I never doubted that point. Everything could have been done better. It just so happens, hardly anyone did, so far. And definitely not the predecessor. So "could be better" is a point that can be held against *any product ever made ever*.

[Lithuasil]

Miashi wrote...
Ultimately I'm saying that DA:O had better quality in its voice acting and made some meaningless moments better because the actors were believable.

That on the other hand, we'll have do definitely disagree on.

[GabranthSG]

Leandra dying is an example of how powerless Hawke seems to be in many situations in the game. In DA:O, if you wished to save Connor without anyone dying, you could approach the Circle for help if you had saved them already. That's an example of how your actions have consequence in the game. In the Dalish Elves quest, if you wanted to be evil, you could attack the clan with the werewolves and wipe them out. You could make Alistair king, kill him or have him remain at your side with each affecting the outcome of the game in different ways. You can't do all those in this game.

Anders blows up the Chantry no matter what you do. The Qunari war and the mage/templar conflict happens no matter what you do. Your family dies/leaves no matter what you do. You fight both Meredith and Orsino no matter what you do. To say that DA2 is on the level of DA:O when it comes to range of options and outcome is just not true.

[CRISIS1717]

Of course there is choice, you can have any flavour as long as it's Vanilla.

[Lithuasil]

I really don't have the nerve to explain this yet again, so I'll just say you're wrong, mmmhkay?