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Prove that there isn't choice in DA2


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#126
Corto81

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Back on topic, the choices in DA2 are truly limited and while it bothered me only slightly on the first playthrough, it really did annoy me in 2nd/3rd playthrough.

Your choices seem to boil down to whether you'll be taking route A or route B to a pre-scripted scenario.

And I wish people would stop with the nonsensical defense of the lack of choice by comparing it to DA:O and saying choices are limited there too.

Yes, they were limited in DAO, but for a cRPG it was damn near amazing.
You could wipe out the elves, let Redliff rot, choose who would be king, support different dwarven throne aspirants, and (maybe most important for me), choose who you group with.
You didn't like Zevran? Kill him. Leave him. Leliana? Ignore her. etc.

You had the choice to not RP a person who'd spend time with people who you hated.
You could ditch the companions and roll with the ones you like.

In DA2, no matter how much you hate Anders, Merill, Sebastion or Fenris, you're stuck with them.
FOR 10 YEARS.
No matter what you do, they'll show up at the end.

That's just bad design. Weak.

Modifié par Corto81, 25 mars 2011 - 12:32 .


#127
Tripedius

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It's kind of ridiculous yes. You think you have a choice, yet it all comes down to killing everyone (99% of the time). Best served cold is the best example. I'm a mage and I'm all for the 'mage liberation front'. I helped numerous mages, including 'la resistance' in act 2 yet I'm forced to kill lots of templars and mages I side with. I actually started act 3 over again cause I thought I did something wrong. This couldn't be right, if those guys just listened to me for a second, but no, there is no choice only death.

#128
Lithuasil

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Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|

#129
yangthecat

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scyphozoa wrote...

Not being able to kill Sister Patrice made me cringe and made me realize how much I appreciate sandbox games like Fallout New Vegas.

I dont put up with bull**** lip from NPCs. Bioware should make a sandbox so when NPCs give me **** I can just kill them on the spot. Works great in Fallout NV, nothing I love more than wiping out entire factions. And there is no greater consequence than changing the political and social landscape of a game by removing factions and npc leaders, and specifically, quests and story arcs exclusive to that faction. Now that is a consequence.

Please Bioware, go make a no-romance sandbox rpg.


Right, like when you take Boone into Caeser's camp and kill everyone including Caeser himself, that totally stops Caeser's army from attacking Hoover Dam in the end...oh, wait, Caeser's army still attacks without Caeser.
Fallout NV is as much about the illusion of choice and consequences as any other rpg. You can change a few details, but you can't change the outcome.

Personally, I liked that DA2 presented you with smaller, more personal choices that mattered more on an emotional level. DA:O gave you a lot of choices that mattered more to other people and were supposed to have an effect on the world at large, but the Warden had little connection or emotional involvement.

It drove me crazy that in every playthrough, I had to do the Urn of Sacred Ashes. Most of my wardens didn't believe for a second that some miracle ashes were going to cure Eamon and given the choice, would not have bothered with that and instead pressured Teagan to step into his brother's role and commit some troops. But I had no choice but to go search for the urn. And the choice I did get once I got there, to side with some cultist loonies or just do what I came to do had no emotional impact on my warden.
And, except for some epilogue slide, the choice I made had little impact on the world.

With DA2 the choices are smaller and more personal, but for me they all had some meaning. Every time I had to choose a side, the decision was made based on my Hawke's personal feelings, and its impact was on his/her character more than on the world at large.

I do agree though that Best Served Cold really bothered me for forcing me to kill a lot of people I was trying to help.

#130
Corto81

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Lithuasil wrote...

Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|


"Proven wrong?"

I realize you're perhaps the most avid DA2 defender on the forums, but I don't think anyone can not see the obvious flaws this game has unless deliberately ignoring it.

#131
Tripedius

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Lithuasil wrote...

Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|


Since your post is directly under mine, I can't help but think you're refering to me. How am I wrong? Is there another option I haven't found yet? 

#132
Lithuasil

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Corto81 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|


"Proven wrong?"

I realize you're perhaps the most avid DA2 defender on the forums, but I don't think anyone can not see the obvious flaws this game has unless deliberately ignoring it.


I'm just someone with enough brain to see  past the obvious really. I see the flaws this game has. I hated "best served cold" as much as the next person. I realize how much untapped potential there is. Hell, the very first post I made in this forum was criticizing exactly that.
But, as both a consumer and creator of such materials, I can also see that DA2 is such a massive step in the right direction, as far as storytelling in games goes, and that it's so vastly superior to it's predecessor, that I'm simply not willing to let it go undefended before the waves of unadulterated hate washing through these forums, when the reason for ninety percent of them is blindness by either nostalgia, or the inabillity to look past the most obvious.

#133
ZaroktheImmortal

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Lithuasil wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|


"Proven wrong?"

I realize you're perhaps the most avid DA2 defender on the forums, but I don't think anyone can not see the obvious flaws this game has unless deliberately ignoring it.


I'm just someone with enough brain to see  past the obvious really. I see the flaws this game has. I hated "best served cold" as much as the next person. I realize how much untapped potential there is. Hell, the very first post I made in this forum was criticizing exactly that.
But, as both a consumer and creator of such materials, I can also see that DA2 is such a massive step in the right direction, as far as storytelling in games goes, and that it's so vastly superior to it's predecessor, that I'm simply not willing to let it go undefended before the waves of unadulterated hate washing through these forums, when the reason for ninety percent of them is blindness by either nostalgia, or the inabillity to look past the most obvious.


Actually by the sound of your rants and insulting anyone who says a word against Dragon Age 2 it seems like you think it's perfect, like it's the best thing since sliced bread. But other people on here may point out the flaws, but that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy it. Personally I didn't like it as much as Origins, but I still had fun with it . Some people might not like it at all. They're entitled to their opinion. So what you're doing isn't defending the game but trying to claim that no one is entitled to an opinion isn't purely praise and worship for the game. But clearly no one gives a rats arse. "go undefended before the waves of unadulterated" Seriously do you even read what you type? People are allowed to have opinions, get over it. As surprising as it may be, not everyone is going to agree with you.

#134
Lithuasil

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ZaroktheImmortal wrote...
Actually by the sound of your rants and insulting anyone who says a word against Dragon Age 2 it seems like you think it's perfect, like it's the best thing since sliced bread. But other people on here may point out the flaws, but that doesn't mean we didn't enjoy it. Personally I didn't like it as much as Origins, but I still had fun with it . Some people might not like it at all. They're entitled to their opinion. So what you're doing isn't defending the game but trying to claim that no one is entitled to an opinion isn't purely praise and worship for the game. But clearly no one gives a rats arse. "go undefended before the waves of unadulterated" Seriously do you even read what you type? People are allowed to have opinions, get over it. As surprising as it may be, not everyone is going to agree with you.


I don't know if you followed the various debates over the last two weeks - it's annoyingly hard to not get defensive and shield even the parts you didn't personally like, with all the undeserved flak this game gets.
That being said, I at least try to keep it civil, rather then outright trolling. I simply didn't get the memo where relativism became a viable stance in life I presume :)

#135
Gadarr

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ZaroktheImmortal wrote...
People are allowed to have opinions, get over it.


The originally quoted poster listed a number of things stating that he didn't have any choice, when indeed there have been numerous posts in this very thread pointing to the exact opposite, even specifically adressing his 'companion problem'. So... obviously he didn't read the thread and just posted some exaggerated rant. Which of course is an opinion, but not a reasonable one. Because it's flat out wrong.

You know, if people would stick to the facts when criticising (or praising for that matter) stuff, things would be so much better. At least, when they're claiming validity for their criticism. Otherwise, they should be honest and admit that they're just venting steam and ranting along because the game and their expectations didn't match.

Which is valid in and of itself, because, after all, games try to appeal to us on an emotional level. If they fail, it's always worth investigating possible reasons. In this case however, it's definitely not because there aren't any choices. There are plenty. The next step would thus be to look into the reasons why some people had the feeling of being railroaded too much.

Modifié par Gadarr, 25 mars 2011 - 01:40 .


#136
Tripedius

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Lithuasil wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...

Can we please, as a general rule of thumb, establish to actually read the thread, instead of *again* posting an opinion that has been proven wrong several times in the very thread you're posting in? :|


"Proven wrong?"

I realize you're perhaps the most avid DA2 defender on the forums, but I don't think anyone can not see the obvious flaws this game has unless deliberately ignoring it.


I'm just someone with enough brain to see  past the obvious really. I see the flaws this game has. I hated "best served cold" as much as the next person. I realize how much untapped potential there is. Hell, the very first post I made in this forum was criticizing exactly that.
But, as both a consumer and creator of such materials, I can also see that DA2 is such a massive step in the right direction, as far as storytelling in games goes, and that it's so vastly superior to it's predecessor, that I'm simply not willing to let it go undefended before the waves of unadulterated hate washing through these forums, when the reason for ninety percent of them is blindness by either nostalgia, or the inabillity to look past the most obvious.


That is quite a weak argument. It's not vastly superior because it has not been implemented well enough. I see it's potential, but it failed to reach that. Some other thing that I noticed, creator of.... so you work for BW? Even if it had it's potential filled than the claim that it's vastly superior is false. It depends on taste and saying that something is vastly superior based on taste is quite silly. Beer is vastly superior than wine, cause I like wine better. If you like fast combat DA2 is the game for you, if you like tactical combat however...... So all I can see now is the holes in your reasoning, claiming that not liking this game is about nostalgia or looking past the obvious. DA2 is highly unfinished. If the spent another year on it, maybe we could have a discussion about it, but leave all taste out of it (style, combat) and you can still see it is a crap game, cause it isnt finished.

#137
tanuki

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There are choices in DA2. Maybe not so big-looking as in DAO but still plenty. People complain because when its consequences are not written in the epilogue on the text panels they think there is no choice.Image IPB

#138
Lithuasil

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Tripedius wrote...
That is quite a weak argument. It's not vastly superior because it has not been implemented well enough. I see it's potential, but it failed to reach that. Some other thing that I noticed, creator of.... so you work for BW? Even if it had it's potential filled than the claim that it's vastly superior is false. It depends on taste and saying that something is vastly superior based on taste is quite silly. Beer is vastly superior than wine, cause I like wine better. If you like fast combat DA2 is the game for you, if you like tactical combat however...... So all I can see now is the holes in your reasoning, claiming that not liking this game is about nostalgia or looking past the obvious. DA2 is highly unfinished. If the spent another year on it, maybe we could have a discussion about it, but leave all taste out of it (style, combat) and you can still see it is a crap game, cause it isnt finished.


I don't work for bioware - I do however write fiction on a level professional enough to pay for pizza, and to appreciate something by it's artistic merits alone, beyond personal taste.

It's funny how you mention the combat (that being the biggest point of critique I have voiced time and time again, but nvm). Liking a slow, tactical combat better, or preferring a fast paced, reflex based combat, that's a merit of taste, and I never once argued against it.
Pointing out however, what kind of combat helps the immersion along, providing examples where it worked, and pointing out what kind of combat disconnects gameplay and gameworld (without even judging, if immersion is a good or a bad thing in a singleplayer rpg) is not a question of taste, but one of intellectual debate.

#139
Tripedius

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Lithuasil wrote...

I don't work for bioware - I do however write fiction on a level professional enough to pay for pizza, and to appreciate something by it's artistic merits alone, beyond personal taste.

It's funny how you mention the combat (that being the biggest point of critique I have voiced time and time again, but nvm). Liking a slow, tactical combat better, or preferring a fast paced, reflex based combat, that's a merit of taste, and I never once argued against it.
Pointing out however, what kind of combat helps the immersion along, providing examples where it worked, and pointing out what kind of combat disconnects gameplay and gameworld (without even judging, if immersion is a good or a bad thing in a singleplayer rpg) is not a question of taste, but one of intellectual debate.


Actually I think your wrong. Even the kind of combat that helps connect or disconnect from a gameworld is for a large part taste as it is connected to how you experience something. There is no right or wrong. Hence the debate, as otherwise you could just state the facts. But in the end it all boils down to taste. For me the perfect example is CiV (5). I don't dislike the game, I don't dislike the changes, I enjoyed playing it but after a little while I just didn't play it anymore as oppossed to CIV (4), where I disliked the diplomacy for instance, but I kept on playing a lot longer. (if this makes sense, I find it hard sometimes to get across what I mean in a foreign (English) language).

#140
Lithuasil

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What's your mothertongue if I may ask?

As for the point I made - screenshots speak more then words :)

Image IPB
Vs
Image IPB

#141
Tripedius

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Dutch. And for the screenshots, I'm guessing you think the first one is best, but I'm biased towards the second one, proving my point ;)

#142
Mykel54

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Lithuasil, i think you are missing a point, we are not saying that DA2 does not have any emotional attachment (the mother quest or the bethany death is an example of such), but that Hawke is just an actor in a pre-defined setting, there is very little input from the player.

The game was announced as the player having weigth into hawke´s story, making decisions that you would see the consequences in the 10 years. For starters there are very few decisions that you are allowed to make, those that you are limit themselves to small sidequests. They are the equivalent of helping brother burkel or dagna in orzammar, or making the dalish boy and girl come together.

DA2 is filled with that kind of choices, and lack any "shape the world" decisions, with very few exceptions (some decent were killing anders or giving fenris to danarius). I don´t understand how people don´t see this as a concern, i thought the main motivation of people who played this kind of games were making their own story. How would you feel if in origins Morrigan had a god-baby no matter what? and what about if Alistair always killed Loghain? and if the architect always survived your encounter no matter what you do? That is what DA2 has done, put some choices in the dialogue but then make them all play the same.

Modifié par Mykel54, 25 mars 2011 - 03:33 .


#143
Astara_

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Gabey5 wrote...

all rpgs are linear to some degree, you cannot change major events


FALSE FALSE FALSE



Try TES IV: Oblivion (GOTY edition)



Almost completely non-linear.



You can do any of nearly 100 or more quests in parallel, or linear or skip.



Examples

1), You can be mage, fighter, thief, assassin,
paladin, or NONE of the above, or all of the above in nearly any order
(some would be harder than others -- especially mixing the paladin line
w/thief or assassin).



Probably about 70-90 'side quests' of varying length. 



And
2 main quests -- which can be done in either order, or not at all (i.e.
they are optional -- you can just scores of little side ruins, dungeons
or similar (skipping any or trying to find them all.  There's
***tons*** of land to explore -- no "paths" that you can't stray off of
-- just a "world boundary", which is HUGE.   If you get up high enough,
you can (depending on weather, which varies) see almost almost across
the entire 'world' -- but very high and very clear day.  



You don't like the classes?  Design your own.



About 10-15 different races all with different abilities. 



Ability
to create your own custom spells with mixes of effects from various
'schools' of magic (imagine 1 spell that throws lightning, fire and cold
all in 1 spell, or whatever).....



I could go on and on ... but
the point is that -- THAT is choice.   100's of hours of gameplay not
10-15, and huge amounts of replayability.



It had cutting edge graphics for its day (~2006), and I just turned a
group of friends on to it, and about 4 of them (2 working age guys,
& 2 teens (male&female)).   One of the guys has played it for
about 6 weeks now and still hasn't finished 1 quest -- he's all about
exploring (I keep harassing him, as I liked doing the quests -- but I
did them all mixed up in multiple ways through multiple playbacks) . 
They are all addicted to it with their PC & XBOX (it comes in both
versions, but the PC graphics are far superior) being used almost 24/7
by reservation!  



I haven't played it for for some time, having exhausted every site and
path through the game, though not every class, and not every set of
options -- like 'potions', you can design your own with ingredients you
find -- I never got into that (I preferred magic).    You can buy and
houses and equip them w/furniture (multiple in multiple towns if you
have the $$).   You can play 'vampire' on top of everything else (i.e.
you can get it separately and it has its own pluses & minuses). 



There's still a thriving and active user community as it was an "open"
game with great easy of creating addon's -- things like items or new
dungeons -- one created a winery that you could stock with all the
fixings (after clearing it out of monsters that had taken it over). 
The detail and scenery additions are uncountable (there are literally
10's of 1000 of user developed extensions/mods and addons.   One mod
site (http://betteroblivion.com) has a list of extensions with them
sorted alphabetically by page.   Just on the "C" page, there are 978
mods!   ...ok  the completionist in me just had to find out how
downloads were listed on the a-z pages:  17,696!  On that 1 extension
site, alone, they claim over 10G of mods -- and that's just 1 mod
listing site.



In looking at it, I just found a 'dragon-mount' mod -- that allows you
to add a 'dragon' (wasn't a monster that I remember in the original
game), that you can use as a 'mount' (to ride, or rather, 'fly'
on!)....   FWIW, I didn't like the horses *that* much, too hard too
steer and had to get off of them to fight.  Yeah, too lazy to figure
out how to write my own mod to fix it.



There are partial and full nudity mods, custom armor & costume
design.  One mod I loved when I first found this game was a mod to
change the background music into music from the LOTR sound track(s) (I
have them all, loved them, and having them as background music was
awesome... made an epic game even more so).   Do I need to go on?



That was my *first* exposure to an RPG.   Everything since then has pretty much been downhill in most ways.  



Another that has some cool options- 'Divinity-II: Dragon Knight saga',
where you can get the ability to actually become a dragon and fly
(though I wished for a better flight control system, it was still
pretty awesome), and the graphics, especially in the 2nd half (Flames
of Vengeance
) are awesome! (though I *won't* say any better than those
in Dragon-Age-I.5 (DA:A) (i.e. "6 vs. half-dozen" [not as a rating, but
as a comparison]).  It too has ability to form your own idea of a class
and doesn't artificially limit you based on some arbitrary and
unrealistic rules that separate people into strictly delineated
classes.



I.e. not to harp on a point but the idea that someone born with magic
can't learn how to pick a lock or wield a weapon (or dual wield), with
*good* expertise, is **bogus**. 



Sure, you may trade off some pinnacle of ability in magic if you don't
focus all your abilities in one area, but that gets back to the issue
of this thread:  **choice**.



One thing lacking in both Oblivion and Divinity -- 'relationships'
(Oblivion has 'sex' addons, but those aren't relationships).   I'd have
to say that ME&DA do better in that area, though to compare on that
scale, look at 'Dating Sims' from Japan (not specifically the all
'Hentai'/X rated ones that occasionally get xlated into english), but
(I can't read Japanese), judging from the huge number of anime series
that are based on dating sims and the large number of those that aren't
'X' rated, there's quite a variety of relationship-based stories (most
with horrible graphics, a few, that've I've seen, in 600 x 800
windows!).  There emphasis really is the *story*, not the cool graphics
(which, admittedly is a strong motivator for me...), though **so** is
story.   I could wish for some more development **choices**
(options/dialogue/scenes) in that area, as well.   But again, there's
that 'choice' word...

#144
RubiconI7

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Our choices shape Hawke, rather then shaping Kirkwall.


A voice of reason.

#145
Camenae

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Hmm, I guess I don't really understand why DA2 had less "choice" than DAO, other than not having an epilogue that gives nods to what you did. On a quest-by-quest basis I thought the level of choice was pretty much the same.

DAO had choices like, you can choose to kill the werewolves or the Dalish elves or resolve the curse, you can side with the mages or the templars, you can recruit Wynne or kill her.

I used to think wow DAO has a lot more choices than DA2! But then I paused and tried to think of reasons for that opinion, and then it quickly fell apart because DA2 had choices on a similar scale as DAO. You can send Feynriel to the circle or not. You can give Merrill the arulin'holm or you can keep it from her causing her to give up blood magic. You can protect Isabela or give her up to the Qunari. Etc.

Hoping for somebody else to find convincing reasons to bolster my original opinion.

#146
ChrisBGoose341

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Well TES: Oblivion is non-linear (to a point) and a very huge place to explore, but there isn't much choice. Conversations are mostly for information, and the only real choice is just appearance and choosing sides and whether to do quests or not. But the part I didn't like about the game is that you play this person who is saving the world (!), but you are not important to anyone... the king who does nothing is more important than your character.
Overall for DA2 I think they tried to incorporate time and seeing your consequences, but i agree that the choices weren't very big. Which may be because the choice arcs the story which would mean more work and more development time. Mind you I like DA2

#147
MelfinaofOutlawStar

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Mykel54 wrote...

Lithuasil, i think you are missing a point, we are not saying that DA2 does not have any emotional attachment (the mother quest or the bethany death is an example of such), but that Hawke is just an actor in a pre-defined setting, there is very little input from the player.

The game was announced as the player having weigth into hawke´s story, making decisions that you would see the consequences in the 10 years. For starters there are very few decisions that you are allowed to make, those that you are limit themselves to small sidequests. They are the equivalent of helping brother burkel or dagna in orzammar, or making the dalish boy and girl come together.

DA2 is filled with that kind of choices, and lack any "shape the world" decisions, with very few exceptions (some decent were killing anders or giving fenris to danarius). I don´t understand how people don´t see this as a concern, i thought the main motivation of people who played this kind of games were making their own story. How would you feel if in origins Morrigan had a god-baby no matter what? and what about if Alistair always killed Loghain? and if the architect always survived your encounter no matter what you do? That is what DA2 has done, put some choices in the dialogue but then make them all play the same.


Despite the fact the Fable series became increasingly rubbish as it continued one thing I cannot fault them on is how they portrayed the passage of time within the world they created. You actually got to see your decisions have an effect on how people percieved you as well as your surroundings. In DA2 I felt little of that. Even once you recieve the title of Champion it seems to have little effect on how people view Hawke. Your status seems to hold no special perks. You're still in the same home, surrounded by the same city, with the same friends and everyone treats you as if you're an idiot when you're the only sane one of the bunch.

#148
ZaroktheImmortal

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ChrisBGoose341 wrote...

Well TES: Oblivion is non-linear (to a point) and a very huge place to explore, but there isn't much choice.


Yeah, true enough. It was more freedom explore and travel as you wish. Though you did also have mostly freedom to kill random people, though it really didn't do anything rather than that person not being there. So in some sense it was freedom and non-linear in a sense. But it wasn't so much about choice and effect.

#149
GhostRed

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Sylvianus wrote...

Prove that there is no choice in DA2. It's an illusion, it's a lie.

Magician qunari chased, you can not kill him even if you want to play an anti-qun, hero is obliged to escort him. Sister Patrice we can't choose to be with her or kill her at the end and yet she tries to kill us.

Qunari hunters, we are forced to fight them, even if we decide to give them  the mage qunari, wathever dialogue.

Ser Varnell has abducted qunari, if I object to its extreme, I fight him, ok that's normal. But if I say I want to see qunari dead too, I want to see them expelled from Kirkwall, it tells me that there are outside influences at first to eliminate ( that is me. then I want to be his side.) What is this madness ? He is stupid or what ? Finally Hawk whatever its side, leaves qunari be butchered and must fight Ser Varnell...

It's alway like that. The same purpose, the same conclusion. There is only one plot line from beginning to end;

And the best for last, there is just a single purpose. The same for everyone.


I think you mean "proof" that there isn't choice, which there is, and the outcomes aren't always the same.

You forget there are 3 different story are options at the character creation including the option to load a finished DAO game, which creates its own unique story arc.  So is the main plot the same, yeah for sure.  But how you get there and how that affects the next DA is different for everyone, or at least has the potential to be.

#150
Deztyn

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RubiconI7 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Our choices shape Hawke, rather then shaping Kirkwall.


A voice of reason.


Well, I want to shape my second mage Hawke as a woman of uncompromising morals who genuinely believes that the Circle is a good option for mages who lacked the advantage of having an Apostate daddy and recognizes the threat that bad or untrained mages present to the world. Who also hates blood magic because she believes that it is innately evil just as most people in the game do. Okay, really I just want to play a pro-templar mage because it makes Anders head explode. Still.

Then of course there's Merrill.

Who I told I did not want to talk to after the game forces me to drop her off at the alienage.

And never spoke to after. And ignored completely on the character selection screen.

The game of course is still treating Merrill as if she is one of my companions in cutscenes and dialogue.

I'd call that a failure to make a convincing illusion of choice.

Modifié par Deztyn, 26 mars 2011 - 06:22 .