189 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Lithuasil wrote...
And where does your authority come from, to dismiss a point as invalid, that you have missed entirely? :|

She got the point, you're just wrong. Point dismissed. 

[GabranthSG]

Lithuasil wrote...
While the whole Denerim political affair was by far the finest hour of Origins, it also pretty much illustrates why such a thing happened only once in all of Origins, and never in DA2.
Speaking simply from a designers perspective, making such stuff, as awesome as it might be, simply is no viable option. Think about it, four or five cutscenes, at least twenty minutes of individual dialogue and a whole level (which they recycled for the final btw) - all for naught, if the player simply happens to not suck at the combat system. Crafting a game that offers several such choices, would basically mean creating two or three games, with the player only experiencing one per playthrough. In other words, either a campaign half as long, or twice as much time needed for developement. Bioware are only people - sure DA2 could have taken another three month of polish allright, but allowing for several such choices, where even Origins only had that one, isn't viable, no matter how long the game's in developement.

That's just not true. That's definitely not the ONLY scenario in the whole of DA:O that could play out in different ways with different dialogue, and stuff. They definitely did "four or five cutscenes, at least twenty minutes of individual dialogue" for many other quests throughout the game in fact. Helping redcliffe or leaving, that's one. Siding with Bhelen or Harrowmont gave you different quests, that's two.

And it's not about being able to defeat Ser Cauthrian or not, you're missing the point. The point is that the option of surrendering exists for people who do not want to fight. Some people actually want replay that prison break scenario with different companions, you know? And that's how it can be used as an example of how options in DA:O have a greater impact than DA2.

[Deztyn]

Dylandl,

You realize you're arguing this with someone who admitted in another thread he only completed Origins once?

Lithuasil wrote...

I managed to force myself to complete Origins once and gave up the second run somewhere between the fade and the deep roads.
I managed to play through DA2 four times. In a row. I spent more time on DA2, then I could *force* (always a good sign) myself to spend on origins.

Modifié par Deztyn, 27 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

ShrinkingFish wrote...

"There are men who struggle against destiny, and yet achieve only an early grave. There are men who flee destiny, only to have it swallow them whole. And there are men who embrace destiny, and do not show their fear. These are the ones that change the world forever."

Boom. You just got meta-d! You cannot fight your destiny... choice is an illusion...

Muwahahaha!

That pretty much sums it up I guess.

[ghostriderz32]

Narrative, an orderly continuous account of events. The story is being told by Varric, who is asked what happened. Who was Hawke, where did he/she come form and how did he/she raise to the Champion of Kirkwall. What and why motives this character is needed to understand this character and story. In the end we are left with not knowing where Hawke is and alone. The narrative has established who and why he/she is, so now the story can go in any direction or choices. DA3.

[Wittand25]

Sylvianus wrote...
No my friend. ^^ It's possible in dao, yes after somes fight, but it's possible to resolve peacefully.
Zathrian sacrifices himself and forgets his idea of revenge. Versipelle disappears with him, thanking him, at peace with him. Peaceful outcome that I confess I did not think possible. I thought it was like you have to choose a field. My girlfriend succeed to find this path.

Zathrien attacks you if you try to have a peacefull solution. After the fight he gives up and ends the curse but since you have to fight him first so that solution is not peaceful.

And decisions taken in Act 1, except for the companions, do not count.

How you deal with Grace or Karen decides who gives you what quests in later acts. Your decision at the end of the magistrates son also effect future quests and future encounters with certain NPCs as does several other quests. Doing the companion´s quests has a huge influence on their lives.

[Aurelet]

Deztyn wrote...

I actually think Shepherding Wolves presents a good example of how to force a player along a preset path while still allowing some degree of choice. Not in the beginning where you accept the quest even when trying to refuse it. That was one of the worst examples. But how the quest ends once you meet up with the other Qunari is fantastic. Playing it as a noble mage loving rogue the first time through, Ketojan self-immolates in the end, and it was dramatic, and tragic. Playing it my second time through as a character who was willing to let the other Qunari take him he still chooses his own death, and you still fight the other Quanari, and it is also done to great dramatic effect.

But this isn't a case of your choices not mattering. In both scenarios it's about the Qun and what Saarebas wants.

I have the stupid gold for the Deep Roads Expedition.  There are no quests for Sheperding wolves in my journal (Just one of Varrics rumors)

I can't go on the expedition EVEN though it's the only Main Plot Quest in my journal because "I haven't wrapped up all my business"  There is absolutely NO choice in this game.  You are forced to complete the side quests.


At least I made it through one playthrough.

[lafiite]

Like Many. I had been struggling with what seemed like a false sense of choice in this game... especially in the end game, when siding with either party meant you still had to fight them both. Until I read this quote in this forum:

blahq34653 wrote...

I think that's what they meant by "existence is the only choice".

Just kidding... it was probably an accidental coincidence. These writers aren't clever enough to disguise messages into their dialogue.

You know, the more i thought about this, the better an explaination it seems...

First of all, I ABSOLUTELY credit the writers with being MORE than clever enough to give us a peak at the plot in the early dialogue. After all, Bioware has some of the best writers in the business, and I'd stack their stories up against ANYONE'S. No expceptions.

Secondly, the more I think about that first conversation with Flemeth, the more I feel that I understand the story arc. Kirkwall was doomed from the begining (as was the Chantry, as evidenced by Varric and the Seekers early dialogue). i.e. - Hawke: "I guess we have no choice" Flemeth: "We Never Do.' My point is that, the early dialogue, and in fact every device being used to tell the story (the Varric/Seeker flashbacks) serves to reinforce the fact that we can't change the eventual outcome (at least on a few very crucial points: The Chantry is in Turmoil, Kirkwall is in Chaos, and the Champion is missing). Does this mean Hawke has no choice? Absolutely not. Like in life, all we have are our choices, despite the outcome. Again, I go back to the deliberate use of the Varric/Seeker flashback device - the TRUE STORY is not what eventually happened, but HOW it happened... what choices were made by Hawke and his companions.

Rather than driving the eventual outcome, Hawke's choices shape Hawke himself (or herself) and in a very tangible sense, they shape the way the citizens of Kirkwall and companions respond to Hawke. After all, isn't that what we want in an RPG?. Beyond all the Stats and the Armor and the Equipment,  don't we really want the ability to shape our own Hero's character in the way we see fit: the Noble Defender; the Lovable Rascal; the Dark Villain? In this sense, I feel DAII has done it better than anyone. On a minute to minute basis, across all NPCs, and throughout the Story, this game has more opportunities to make meaningful choices that impact the relationships between Hawke and his companions, his allies, and his even his enemies than any other game I have ever played. You only need to look at the volume of discussion in these forums about what in the game (or even in an imported save game) triggers a particular conversation, or sidequest or outcome. The options are myriad and varied... much more so than any other game I can think of (unless it's another game created by Bioware).

Lastly, I like to mention that I feel the only reason we hold Bioware to such a high standard, is because the incredibly high quality of it's games so far. Before ME2 how many games even considered decisions in previous games having an impact on the story? Before Dragon Age, how many games even pretended to have multiple endings based on your decisions in the story. If I understand the story as I think I do now,I feel the decision to write multiple, believable paths to the same unfortunate ending, is just as brave, and difficult, and groudbreaking as anything else Bioware has done. All that being said, no game is perfect... this opne certainly has it's flaws in both design and implementation. But upon refection, I feel much more respect for the shape and character of this game. And I am much more excited about my next playthough!

[Miashi]

Lastly, I like to mention that I feel the only reason we hold Bioware to such a high standard, is because the incredibly high quality of it's games so far. Before ME2 how many games even considered decisions in previous games having an impact on the story? Before Dragon Age, how many games even pretended to have multiple endings based on your decisions in the story. If I understand the story as I think I do now,I feel the decision to write multiple, believable paths to the same unfortunate ending, is just as brave, and difficult, and groudbreaking as anything else Bioware has done. All that being said, no game is perfect... this opne certainly has it's flaws in both design and implementation. But upon refection, I feel much more respect for the shape and character of this game. And I am much more excited about my next playthough!

You won't be that excited anymore on your second playthrough when you realize you get the same quests, sometimes the same response even if you pick a different dialogue option in the wheel. That's what happened to me.

And about "Before Dragon Age, how many games even pretended to have multiple endings based on your decisions in the story", let me ask you this, did you play any Bioware game before Dragon Ages? Because most of them have a different epilogue according to which path you decide to take (good or evil). This path is forged through the whole game, by the decisions you make.

Example 1: KOTOR light and dark side endings
Example 2: Jade Empire Sacrifice, Good and Bad endings
Example 3: Neverwinter Nights (Hordes of the Underdark) epilogues (which precedes the DA:O character epilogues)
Example 4: Mass Effect 1 and 2: Paragon / Renegade endings
Example 5: Throne of Bhaal 4 different endings.

and I might forget some.

[KAAurious]

There is choice. It's rare. But it is there. It tends to be at the end of each act:
Act 1: What to do with your sibling.
Act 2: Arishok dealings.
Act 3: Which side to take. (This is a bit of a shame though.)

Other choices tend to influence minor dialogue and whatnot, yet the repercussions aren't entirely felt.

To be honest, it wasn't entirely ineffective. I did like seeing the results of my actions, where as in DA:O we were mostly left to speculate. (In regards to the treaty resolutions) Perhaps they opted to limit choice as to limit the number of possible variables for DA3. That'd be my guess anyway.

[Miashi]

That's what I'm hoping. Hopefully DA3 will be grand. I hope it's going to be at least a few years till we start hearing about it, otherwise it'll be a disaster just like DA2. 18 months was too short. I'm not going to pre-order without asking question if they spend as little time in DA3 than DA2.

Modifié par Miashi, 28 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[KAAurious]

Miashi wrote...

That's what I'm hoping. Hopefully DA3 will be grand. I hope it's going to be at least a few years till we start hearing about it, otherwise it'll be a disaster just like DA2. 18 months was too short. I'm not going to pre-order without asking question if they spend as little time in DA3 than DA2.

Tragically, ME3 hasn't had much time in development and is supposed to be due out by the end of the year.

As for DA3? My personal hope is that DA2 was a Bioware sophomore experiment, I mean there is (in my opinion) a lot of good in the game. But it felt like for every step they took forward they took one back.

[Miashi]

Aye, they said Q4 2011 and that worries me. Mass Effect's always been more of an action game than a RPG though. Looking forward to tomorrow for Arrival.

[xCirdanx]

Gadarr wrote...
That's the whole idea of the framed narrative, which implies - who would have guessed - a frame. We get to draw the painting.

And the idea isn´t bad, and i understand what you mean, but i don´t think it works in DA2. Not even a bit.

You don´t get to draw the painting, you are making a few and meaningless lines with a pencil.

You can´t save your mother, you can´t save your second sibling in the beginning. You are Hawke, your backstory is given, you will become the champion, no matter what and nothing you do will change the outcome, not even which side you choose in the end.

These little things like Feynriel have no impact, they don´t change your path in a meaningful way, the don´t affect your status, your team mates etc. They are worthless, and thats sad.

Even when i went totally pro templer, Merill the blood mage would stay and fight with me despite being 100% rival and i still had to fight Meredith. No matter how anti-mage i went i still got the "oh i´m sorry this has to happen, mages are our brother/sisters.." speech from my Hawke.

For me that´s a problem, i´m not RPíng Hawke, i´m playing Biowares Hawke. That´s how it felt in two playthroughs and i was trying to be as different as i could.

[KorPhaeron]

Sylvianus wrote...

Prove that there is no choice in DA2. It's an illusion, it's a lie.

Magician qunari chased, you can not kill him even if you want to play an anti-qun, hero is obliged to escort him. Sister Patrice we can't choose to be with her or kill her at the end and yet she tries to kill us.

Qunari hunters, we are forced to fight them, even if we decide to give them  the mage qunari, wathever dialogue.

Ser Varnell has abducted qunari, if I object to its extreme, I fight him, ok that's normal. But if I say I want to see qunari dead too, I want to see them expelled from Kirkwall, it tells me that there are outside influences at first to eliminate ( that is me. then I want to be his side.) What is this madness ? He is stupid or what ? Finally Hawk whatever its side, leaves qunari be butchered and must fight Ser Varnell...

It's alway like that. The same purpose, the same conclusion. There is only one plot line from beginning to end;

And the best for last, there is just a single purpose. The same for everyone.

ah this is why i love game forums

The OP made a nice logical post the anyone with a medium of logic and an avarage IQ who played DAO and DA2 would understand.

And then the masses of idiots decend, who instead of thinking ligically about it and agreeing like any normal person would do, start disagreeing with everything and comparing it to games that have nothing to do with Dragon Age, then going to the definition of choice and other abstract stupidities

I just wanted to thank all the idiots in this tread for an entertaining read