147 réponses à ce sujet

[PPR223]

Lithuasil wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
The Warden couldn't "leg it" with a blight to stop. And I don't get why everyone complains about Fereldan's palate.You at least had some different scenery there. The Free Marches seems way browner too me considering you have only a few small maps to explore whereas Ferelden had several. A night/day toggle does not a bigger map make.

Joining the grey wardens during a blight is the second stupidest thing you can do in thedas, right after submitting to the qun. However the warden manages to top that, by taking on a retardedly suicidal quest, for virtually no reason at all. With all my ties in these lands sewered, I have absolutely no incentive other then to save my own hide, and let the grey wardens from other countries deal with it (after all, getting literally forced to join at knife point, what obligation do I have towards the order?) Hawke has reasons to stay in Kirkwall - the warden had none to stay in ferelden, and countless to leg it.

But of course, the gameworld could have been bigger, though I much preffered giving us a large picture of kirkwall, to giving us small patches of several parts of the world.

How is it retarded to risk your life to save anothers? If only two people could defeat a threat that will lead to the deaths of thousands of people, would you not expect them to stay? If they didn't, they would just be selfish, caitiff traitors. I don't think anyone could look at them in a decent light. Origins certainly has a believable amount of reason for them to stay.

Dragon Age 2 is a great game, and it does have faults, but no game doesn't. Origins has alot of faults, which made parts of the game near unplayable, Deep Roads and the Fade make up quite a big portion of the main campaign, those parts were horrible.

[Gadarr]

Lithuasil wrote...
The hawkes arrive at the only place where they still have relatives, and the remote chance of finding shelter as refugees, having used their very last coin to get here. The hawkes have neither incentive nor opportunity to leave. And in that case, not letting me visit anything outside a days walking distance, is still railroading, but railroading I'm ok with - because there's a comprehensible reason for it.

To be fair, the only reason for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall is pretty much Leandra who desperately wants to return to her city of birth. When you reach Kirkwall, a guard points out that you could try your luck in one of the towns farther from the coast that might not be overcrowded with refugees as of yet, and you can propose to do exactly this - it's just turned down by your mother without you having a choice.

Also, being a slave in all but name for a whole year to either a bunch of murderers or smugglers isn't necessarily very appealing. Or any incentive to stay.

Modifié par Gadarr, 25 mars 2011 - 11:15 .

[Lithuasil]

Gadarr wrote...

To be fair, the only reason for Hawke to stay in Kirkwall is pretty much Leandra who desperately wants to return to her city of birth. When you reach Kirkwall, a guard points out that you could try your luck in one of the towns farther from the coast that might not be overcrowded with refugees as of yet, and you can propose to do exactly this - it's just turned down by your mother without you having a choice.

So if a guard in a Rwanda refugee camp tells you to "try your luck somewhere else" you take that for face value, and assume it's a good plan? Especially when all the farmland in the free marches is on the other side of the mountains?

PPR223 wrote...

How is it retarded to risk your life to save anothers? If only two people could defeat a threat that will lead to the deaths of thousands of people, would you not expect them to stay? If they didn't, they would just be selfish, caitiff traitors. I don't think anyone could look at them in a decent light. Origins certainly has a believable amount of reason for them to stay.

Because they were going to tell everyone in whereever they went "hey, we're renegade wardens, but we legged it"? We can argue all day whether heroism is retarded or not - the bottom line remains: You cannot roleplay heroes. You can roleplay persons, even persons that at times, like hawke, perform heroic feats - but a hero will always be an empty vessel, a narrative element to drive the plot and supply the player with faint accomplishment.

Modifié par Lithuasil, 25 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[Sazzle]

Night Prowler76 wrote...

I don't know how the people praising this game can function in normal society, I guess you really can get alot accomplished with very few brain cells.

With comments like 9 for story depth, DA2 was fantastic etc, the franchise might as well be dead, they are pandering to the lower IQ crowd, and even most of them aren't buying the game now either.

It's like there is an army of Mikey Laidlaws on these forums saying ZOMG!!!!!! I did something awesome with 1 button, this game is so epic, did you see that!!!!!

I don't think it does pander to a lower IQ crowd in content.  In its attempts to politicise and create catharsis I think it did well, and it certainly removed the dichotomous decision feel of the first one.  You're never going to get the indie, kooky feel of the early games that a company makes when they become successful: it simply doesn't sell enough to meet targets!  The shame in that aside, I do think DA2 did well to at least push the boundaries as much as possible for a mass marketed game - it could be taken on many levels and enjoyed at whatever pitch an individual chose.  It's no Dostoevsky, but if you're looking for that then I suggest moving outside the gaming industry...

[Gadarr]

Lithuasil wrote...
So if a guard in a Rwanda refugee camp tells you to "try your luck somewhere else" you take that for face value, and assume it's a good plan? Especially when all the farmland in the free marches is on the other side of the mountains?

Well, it's at least something to consider, when your alternative is to work for some dubious people for a whole year. I can imagine quite a few things more comfortable than to work for a Rwandan death squad.
Not that a hike to the next town is exactly appealing, but still... At least it does stand to reason that non-coastal towns aren't as overcrowded.

Modifié par Gadarr, 25 mars 2011 - 11:27 .

[Sazzle]

royceclemens wrote...

It's the damnedest thing, the most singular thing I've come across in all my years of perusing various media.

You got your folks who'll defend DA2 to the rafters and then you got your folks who'll cling to DAO by the very atoms on the tips of their fingernails, but me? I can't do it.

DAO and DA2 are completely interlocking. They're puzzle pieces. Each succeeds wildly where the other fails horribly. Never quite seen anything like it.

You know, you're totally right.  As much praise as I gave in my original post (I was on a post completion high!) there were parts of the game when I thought, hey, I wish this was more like origins, but then replaying origins now, there are bits when I miss aspects of DA2...  maybe the third will combine the good bits of both - let's hope so

Modifié par Sazzle, 25 mars 2011 - 11:36 .

[Lithuasil]

Gadarr wrote...

Lithuasil wrote...
So if a guard in a Rwanda refugee camp tells you to "try your luck somewhere else" you take that for face value, and assume it's a good plan? Especially when all the farmland in the free marches is on the other side of the mountains?

Well, it's at least something to consider, when your alternative is to work for some dubious people for a whole year. I can imagine quite a few things more comfortable than to work for a Rwandan death squad.
Not that a hike to the next town is exactly appealing, but still...

Point being - even if they had the coin to travel to the next town - why would they go to a place where their situation is exactly the same, minus having contacts, shelter and family in the city (which they all have in kirkwall - that's the reason they don't end up in darktown)

[turian councilor Knockout]

Ok, DA 2 is a good game but not nothing more, first it is much less tactical even on hard you can do well in most fights except bosses if you only control your own character, repetive environments, you find junk ( why is this even in the game ?) and Anders what have happened to him ( his character have gone through some radical changes and not for the better).
There's much more to be said but i will not debate more here anyway.

Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 25 mars 2011 - 11:41 .

[Gadarr]

Lithuasil wrote...
Point being - even if they had the coin to travel to the next town - why would they go to a place where their situation is exactly the same, minus having contacts, shelter and family in the city (which they all have in kirkwall - that's the reason they don't end up in darktown)

Indeed. I was merely pointing out that there are valid alternatives other than 'selling your soul', so to speak. Alternatives which are being brought up even if you can't act on them, due to game limitations. Which is pretty much the same situation your Warden finds herself in.

I do agree with you on the broader picture though, in that DA2 does a better job in providing you reasons why things are the way they are. But Hawke lending his sword/dagger/staff to a bunch of criminals isn't exactly compelling, when there are, in fact, alternative routes to pursue.

[Arrtis]

DA2 isnt about choices.
Its about hawke.

[Lithuasil]

Especially since those alternatives worked so well for all the other ferelden refugees

Sure, it's linear. Any game is linear, hell even morrowind railroaded you a bit. I'd just much rather have the developers give me a reason *why* I can't, then trying to conceal the fact *that* I can't - because that never works.

[Evolution33]

Gamlen was your family and he was a seedy character that had seedy contacts. Hawke needed money to get his aging mother into the city. You can say you are willing to do it another way but your sibling shoots you down and says, "Think about mother." I guess they could have had a no I refuse option and maybe let you try and go to another city and then kill your party on the way to show it really was too dangerous, or move the on the loose quest to this point in the game and hunt down apostates for Merideth to earn your way into the city, but likely people would then have a problem with that. I remember when Orgins came out people complained that they had to be a Grey Warden or couldn't muder Duncan on the spot for killing Jory. A game cannot be made with literally infinite choice. Life doesn't have infinite choice. If I went to a new city and met my uncle and needed money and his only contacts were the maifia and smugglers it is likely I have to end up working for one of those groups.

[Gadarr]

Evolution33 wrote...

Gamlen was your family and he was a seedy character that had seedy contacts. Hawke needed money to get his aging mother into the city. You can say you are willing to do it another way but your sibling shoots you down and says, "Think about mother." I guess they could have had a no I refuse option and maybe let you try and go to another city and then kill your party on the way to show it really was too dangerous, or move the on the loose quest to this point in the game and hunt down apostates for Merideth to earn your way into the city, but likely people would then have a problem with that. I remember when Orgins came out people complained that they had to be a Grey Warden or couldn't muder Duncan on the spot for killing Jory. A game cannot be made with literally infinite choice. Life doesn't have infinite choice. If I went to a new city and met my uncle and needed money and his only contacts were the maifia and smugglers it is likely I have to end up working for one of those groups.

Right, and I don't have a problem with that, although at times I would have wished for a little bit more subtlety than just the game-mechanical equivalent of the Arishoks "No.". For example... for some reason Aveline manages to get a job at the city guard. Why wouldn't that be an alternative to Hawke? Because, you know, just in case your Hawke is not supposed to be either a murderer or a smuggler due to his personal morals, he's... screwed.

So, uhm... basically that was my point. DA:O railroaded you, DA2 railroads you, overall DA2 does a better job in masking it most of the time, as in, it makes sense the way it is. But not always... the entry to Kirkwall being one of the pretty blunt exceptions.

[Lithuasil]

Gadarr wrote...


Right, and I don't have a problem with that, although at times I would have wished for a little bit more subtlety than just the game-mechanical equivalent of the Arishoks "No.". For example... for some reason Aveline manages to get a job at the city guard. Why wouldn't that be an alternative to Hawke? Because, you know, just in case your Hawke is not supposed to be either a murderer or a smuggler due to his personal morals, he's... screwed.

So, uhm... basically that was my point. DA:O railroaded you, DA2 railroads you, overall DA2 does a better job in masking it most of the time, as in, it makes sense the way it is. But not always... the entry to Kirkwall being one of the pretty blunt exceptions.

Aveline was an officer in the ferelden army. Hawke is either a nobody with an apostate sister, or an apostate herself, in any case desperately trying to avoid official attention. 

[GeorgeZip]

I thought it drew from The Witcher. Hawk is a capable hand who various forces find useful in solving problems because Hawke is not tied to any organization. It's not as epic a tale as DAO but how much epicness could happen in such a short time. They need to leave room for Flemmeth and Morrigan because whatever they are up to is gonna be big.

[ginzaen]

glad to see a few post a bit more positive- all the negativity surrounding the game was starting to make me feel a bit sick. Only bit of the game i'd really want different story wise - would be at least a chance to of saved your mother otherwise liked it alot.

Modifié par ginzaen, 25 mars 2011 - 01:20 .

[Reidbynature]

I don't know if this is a joke thread or not. The OP sounds as though they're making the argument than DA2's deficiencies are what makes it great. I really have to question the mental state of anyone who argues DA2 is a masterpiece in any shape or form. It's not a bad game by any means, but it's flaws threaten to drag it down at every turn. I'm not an Origins fanboy by any means as I was hoping that so much got improved in DA2 and the trailers and hype leading up to DA2 actually had me convinced, but playing DA2 just makes me realise what Origins did right all the more.

[ginzaen]

Reidbynature wrote...

I don't know if this is a joke thread or not. The OP sounds as though they're making the argument than DA2's deficiencies are what makes it great. I really have to question the mental state of anyone who argues DA2 is a masterpiece in any shape or form. It's not a bad game by any means, but it's flaws threaten to drag it down at every turn. I'm not an Origins fanboy by any means as I was hoping that so much got improved in DA2 and the trailers and hype leading up to DA2 actually had me convinced, but playing DA2 just makes me realise what Origins did right all the more.

I don't know either- But she is entitled to her own opinion? you don't like it she loves it?

[Lianaar]

Gadarr wrote...
Right, and I don't have a problem with that, although at times I would have wished for a little bit more subtlety than just the game-mechanical equivalent of the Arishoks "No.". For example... for some reason Aveline manages to get a job at the city guard. Why wouldn't that be an alternative to Hawke?

If Aveline didn't have Hawke to drag her into the whole mess, what story would she have? Lead the guard, handle smugglers, slavers, have a few parties, marry a nice guy, have kids, **** at Isabel, grow old, go to pension. See your grandkids rise to rank Captain.

There could have been fun elements in the plot that way, but it would have been way more limited. With position comes certain duty set and behavioral standard set. After all if you don't act like a Captain, you'll no longer be a captain.  There are certain things, you can do as Hawke, that you can not do as a Captain. Eg you can not really play fetch and catch for Orsino or Meredith, since you have a duty to uphold the independence from those organisations for the Guard, or eg you can not be involved in plots that require outside of the office events (like getting Shaemus back, since the viscont specifically requests not to get officials involved).

Also, my life is pretty nice, I enjoy it and I wouldn't give up anything from it (well, maybe a few things), but I hardly think any of you would enjoy playing a game about -my- life I guess this is why you are Champion and not Captain.

[Gadarr]

@ Lianaar & Lithuasil

You're right, of course, my example wasn't exactly the best.

What I was trying to say is, that even though the game does mention an alternative to Kirkwall, you can't follow up on it. In my eyes, it would have been better to either make it clear that a continued trip to some other town would simply be impossible due to not having any more coin, mother being too weak or whatever, or to offer some alternative that wouldn't make Hawke 'sell his soul'.

As it is, you sell yourself to a bunch of criminals because Leandra wants to go home. No other reason is offered, your money reserves not mentioned. And your uncle isn't exactly the most trustworthy kind of person, which is pretty clear from the get-go. Plus, you don't even know him. Not as a player and, more importantly, not as Hawke. It's a bit... meh.

[Lithuasil]

What bothered me a lot more about this part, is that Gamlen basically told two factions I'm an apostate, but I can only join one, giving the other plenty of opportunity to blackmail me :|

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Then there's Hawke's background that depends upon the class you chose. Rogue? That kid was running around Lothering and surrounding area stealing stuff. Not a very nice kid.She may have had prinicples but she stole stuff from other people, and the richest target in town? The Chantry. So running with a bunch of cutthroats or brigands isn't much of a stretch, and it's only a year.

As an apostate mage, that puts her at odds with The Chantry and especially the Templars.

As a warrior with an apostate sister? Well once again she's going to look out for her sister.

And doesn't everyone end up doing stuff they didn't want to do in life? I know I did. Alister in DA:O didn't want to be king. The Cousland child probably didn't want to be a Gray Warden just test his/her mettle.

[Sazzle]

Reidbynature wrote...

I don't know if this is a joke thread or not. The OP sounds as though they're making the argument than DA2's deficiencies are what makes it great. I really have to question the mental state of anyone who argues DA2 is a masterpiece in any shape or form. It's not a bad game by any means, but it's flaws threaten to drag it down at every turn. I'm not an Origins fanboy by any means as I was hoping that so much got improved in DA2 and the trailers and hype leading up to DA2 actually had me convinced, but playing DA2 just makes me realise what Origins did right all the more.

Haha, it's not a joke thread, I just enjoyed the game.  Perhaps I wasn't eloquent enough in my original post, I was just trying to express my enjoyment of the subtleness of DA2.  Whilst some see its understated nature as a weakness, I see it as a strength (though I realise I am in the minority here!).  As I have said, perhaps masterpiece is too strong a word, however it needn't mean perfection.  In my opinion, something great is far removed from something perfect; it combines enjoyability with creativity.  This game took a punt and for many it failed, but if it just carved the same path as its predecessor it wouldn't be anything more than an (albeit enjoyable) immitation.  Whether you agree it was a success or not is a moot point - at least they were trying something a bit different.  Everything needs its fans and its critics to progress: it's feedback which is the most important thing.  Good or bad it can only lead to interesting debate and ultimate improvement.  That's all I was trying to stimulate here