221 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Merced652 wrote...

So you want to ride on rails without any chance that you might miss something neat. Well, for starters that obliterates any replayability a game might have. Which me2 and da2 did quite successfully, i have zero desire to ever play them again. So they got that part down cold at this point.

ohhh wait i fell for it, damn it. lol bg - dinosaur rawr it dumbz.

You just noticed the clear difference betwen what we like in RPGs.  To me, replayability is for other story choices and only other story choices.  For you, finding new easter eggs under the same bushes is what replayability is about.   A game that offers you all the cool and shiny stuff in every playthrough is so detestable you won't every play the game again.

It will come down to how many consumers are like me... and how many are like you.

[DariusKalera]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Check this out on Kotaku.

That pretty much says it all.  DA2 (like ME2) was more focused more on the story side of an RPG than previous DAO/BG/NWN games.  Those games had great story, but loot and gear mechanics chewed away at the tasty part, inflating play times while players went through boring crap to get to the story.

DA2 did skimp a bit on the exploration, there's no way around that, and yeah Kirkwall could have felt more bustling and alive.  But in service of the story, it did a great job.

The trend of "more story, less numbers" is one that must continue.  There's just no reason to play Excel as a video game anymore.

So would you prefer a game where you start off with "x" equipment and keep that equipment through out the game with it leveling up as you do?

[MrWakka]

If BG is a dinosaur, what does that make DA2?

It in many ways falls back on traditional JRPG methods.

No character customization, on rails story with little to no variation, flashy attacks, poor loot mechanics, party members don't change in appearance when you upgrade their gear. You want to talk about aged beasts, Dragon Age is regressing back to a style of gameplay that has been utterly destroyed by western rpgs in sales and calling it moving the genre forward.

[Galad22]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

We just happen to be in the small group of people that even know what PS:T is an abreviation for.  Few people these days talk about how great PS:T was.  And that's a sample from the people who even know what PS:T stands for.

DA2 won't be heralded as the greatest game of it's time.  It will be looked at as a game the was slightly ahead of its time. 

I haven't seen or met anyone who likes rpgs who doesn't know Planescape:Torment.

Last time rock paper shotgun talked about Torment was 5-6 months ago, so it is still very well known and loved.

[Merced652]

Mooh Bear wrote...

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

Agreed completely. 

We've seen rinpoche's attitude from many on these boards well before da2 released. Always presented with this question and nothing ever comes of it. There was actually a really good thread on genre convergence that succinctly explained how this was more likely to result in genre death than by any other means. Laidlaw's recent comments only serve to enforce the reasoning that convergence is what he should be worried about if he wants to even reference genre death. 

Modifié par Merced652, 24 mars 2011 - 05:09 .

[TJSolo]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

I don't see the removal of metagaming as beneficial to games in general.

I'm not sure you even know what you mean there.

The article was talking about the removal of combat numbers from RPGs - "Seeing your character represented as a giant stack of numbers - hit
points, damage points, mana points, etc - and then seeing his or her
actions represented by those numbers being moved around gave life to the
game.
Cold, abstract life, perhaps, but life nonetheless."

Those numbers would not be considered common knowledge for the character to have. Those are stats that aid the player in deciding how to play.

I don't even think you know what the article means seeing as that peice is talking about solely about combat and mentions nothing about how any RPG story benefits from less combat numbers.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Mooh Bear wrote...

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

I do see your point!   However, I like character customization.  Which talent?  Which spell?  Not "do I wear gloves +3% giggle resistance with +1 to fire bats? or the Boots of Awesome Dexterity?"   I wish they had used ME2's armor choices for DA2... that would have ruled.  For me it's the big choices I'm interested in making... then plowing back into the story.

[Merced652]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Mooh Bear wrote...

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

I do see your point!   However, I like character customization.  Which talent?  Which spell?  Not "do I wear gloves +3% giggle resistance with +1 to fire bats? or the Boots of Awesome Dexterity?"   I wish they had used ME2's armor choices for DA2... that would have ruled.  For me it's the big choices I'm interested in making... then plowing back into the story.

Can you outline any big choices you made in DA2 so we have some frame of reference. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

DariusKalera wrote...

So would you prefer a game where you start off with "x" equipment and keep that equipment through out the game with it leveling up as you do?

Kinda-sorta, but not really.  I'd like to be able to modify it like in ME2.  Like you buy or find "shards" from the bosses and creatures you kill and slap the onto your armor and weapons.

[Mooh Bear]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Mooh Bear wrote...

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

I do see your point!   However, I like character customization.  Which talent?  Which spell?  Not "do I wear gloves +3% giggle resistance with +1 to fire bats? or the Boots of Awesome Dexterity?"   I wish they had used ME2's armor choices for DA2... that would have ruled.  For me it's the big choices I'm interested in making... then plowing back into the story.

ME2 armor? Really? It was almost pointless. You could praise the streamlined leveling if you're into making "big choices", but the armor?

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Galad22 wrote...

I haven't seen or met anyone who likes rpgs who doesn't know Planescape:Torment.

Last time rock paper shotgun talked about Torment was 5-6 months ago, so it is still very well known and loved.

One site does not cover most people.

[TheJist]

Please get out of this forum seriously we do not need DA3 to be a third person action game with "choices".

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

TJSolo wrote...


I don't even think you know what the article means seeing as that peice is talking about solely about combat and mentions nothing about how any RPG story benefits from less combat numbers.

Metagaming is using info from outside the game in the game.   :P:P  The dinosaur numbers were very much numbers from inside the game.

[Khayness]

Mooh Bear wrote...

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

Well, I blame the game industry for that.

It seems to me, that the lines between genres are really blurry, like they want everything shaped from the same mold, thinking it will unite the customer bases and earns them the same cash for less work. They keep the most liked features, slap them together, and instead developing 10 games for different crowds, they just make 1, rubbing their hands together.

[Galad22]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I do see your point!   However, I like character customization.  Which talent?  Which spell?  Not "do I wear gloves +3% giggle resistance with +1 to fire bats? or the Boots of Awesome Dexterity?"   I wish they had used ME2's armor choices for DA2... that would have ruled.  For me it's the big choices I'm interested in making... then plowing back into the story.

But this is almost only problem in DA2.

I take Baldur's gate here again even though you don't like it.

Every piece of magical equipment is at some point useful to you in that game, you change them for better further you get in the game and stuff. Progression.

In DA2 you still get useless attack + 15 rings further you get in the game even at level 20. Everything is magical but most are just useless and everything looks exactly the same. Yet you keep saying that those other games were worse offenders than DA2 here?

Now before anyone think I don't like equipment and loot. I do, I just think that you should get progressively better equipment further you get in the game. Like in every other game expect DA2.

Modifié par Galad22, 24 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[TheJist]

Autolycus wrote...

But what choices were there Thejist lol...

DA2 was not even that...it was just an action game. Most of the choices are trivial....most of your choices are not actually choices...as you still do something anyway depsite saying I'm not doing it....

And none of them make one iota of difference to the end of the game.....maybe Rinny played a different DA2 to the rest of us?

That is what the quotations were for. DA 2 stil had some more complex gameplay but this person wants that all that taken away and to turn it into darksiders with "choices".

[DrGulag]

The problem is, if you're not interested in character customization, not interested in tactical combat, not interested in exploration and you like more action-oriented games and nice stories, why in the hell did even you play a RPG like DA: O? Seems to me Assassin's Creed or God of War are more what you're looking for. And I don't mean in a derogatory way, I like those games. I just don't want Kratos or Dante in my Dragon Age...

Spot on.

Why even play a game like Dragon Age if you think "choose the colour of your armor" kind of customization is enough. 

Bioware's reputation has attracted (and wants to attract) gamers that dont really like traditional RPG's. That's the main issue and DA2 is the result.

But that's cool. There will always be a market for players like us and other developers will find their way.

Modifié par DrGulag, 24 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Mooh Bear]

Autolycus wrote...

But what choices were there Thejist lol...

DA2 was not even that...it was just an action game. Most of the choices are trivial....most of your choices are not actually choices...as you still do something anyway depsite saying I'm not doing it....

And none of them make one iota of difference to the end of the game.....maybe Rinny played a different DA2 to the rest of us?

DA2 is not an action game, on PC at least. You select a target and wait. Diablo 2 is an action game. The fights are fast and brutal. You need to think and move quickly. In DA2, you pause, give orders and un-pause. The only difficulty comes from launching the right spells/ablilities in the right order to trigger cross-class combo. Except on Nightmare, but I won't torture myself with that.

[TJSolo]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

TJSolo wrote...


I don't even think you know what the article means seeing as that peice is talking about solely about combat and mentions nothing about how any RPG story benefits from less combat numbers.

Metagaming is using info from outside the game in the game.   :P:P  The dinosaur numbers were very much numbers from inside the game.

Does Hawke or any other RPG character see the damange numbers floating above enemies heads? What about resistances?

Hell things like the HUD, Dialogue wheel/Text tree, and hotbars are all examples of metagaming mechanics.

Modifié par TJSolo, 24 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[Merced652]

Intent icons are metagayming heaven.

[DariusKalera]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DariusKalera wrote...

So would you prefer a game where you start off with "x" equipment and keep that equipment through out the game with it leveling up as you do?

Kinda-sorta, but not really.  I'd like to be able to modify it like in ME2.  Like you buy or find "shards" from the bosses and creatures you kill and slap the onto your armor and weapons.

Eventually though, you will still end up doing the same thing that you prefess to abhor.  The mixing and matching "shards" to get the best out of your toon.  What's the difference between a shard that you put into a ring to give you +1 to all attributes and just a ring that does the same thing?

It was the same in ME2.  What would you rather have, more ammo or a faster rate of fire, more armor or more life?  You had options for all and which one you pick depended on your playstyle.

DA2 did go way overboard with the loot table, I have never seen so much useless crap in all my years of gaming.  There's only so many +2 mane/stamina rings that I can stand.

[Korusus]

Great story doesn't excuse poor gameplay. Video games can be a medium for storytelling, a great interactive medium at that, but they are at the end of the day still video games. Otherwise why even bother having anything but the dialogues and cutscenes? Indeed, why not a "skip combat button"?

As far as numbers in RPGs go, the point of that kind of system early on was to represent things like chance, randomness, and generally mimic reality. BioWare has perverted the purpose of the RPG to what is now -- essentially an interactive, cinematic movie wherein choice is limited to what fits the writers preconceived linear storyline. There is no room for chance or randomness in that world, there are only carefully planned moments of false "choice", no different than older non-RPGs that presented multiple paths to different endings. Most modern RPG systems limit themselves to numbers in combat now anyway which is what makes them near indistinguishable from other genres. If you want a true numbers RPG you have to go oldschool, in some cases even more oldschool than the Infinity Engine games. Table-top in some cases.

[HyperLimited]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
There's just no reason to play Excel as a video game anymore.

lol, sadly true. 

Modifié par HyperLimited, 24 mars 2011 - 05:27 .