221 réponses à ce sujet

[Tekman9]

this guy is a moron. wtf does he think a computer game is doing? Every program essentially works on numbers.

And his comment on cRPGS. Um it didnt really have anything to do with computing power as it had to do with there was already a completely fully fledged game universe based on all sorts of numbers. Youre paying for the dnd license, why wouldnt you use the dnd system lol.... It was a DND computer game. Masseffect 2 doesnt have numbers in it? Ok buddy.

[Taura-Tierno]

Whether or not you like the story in DA2 (and consider it story) depends much on if you like your stories to be epic (save the world from being destroyed) or more personal. DA2 had a personal story, that I found much more engaging that DA:O. DA:O was good ... but the plot was very generic. Big bad monster. Gather allies. Kill monster. An archetype, true, but it the story wasn't original in any way. The world was, though, which made it an amazing game. The DA2 story felt much more personal to me. It is "story", whether you like it or not.

[DrZagreus]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DA2 won't be heralded as the greatest game of it's time.

To be honest neither will Dragon Age: Origins. I love DA: O, but doesn't matter how people try to sugarcoat it DA: O was a flawed game. From the mute protagonist to the dodgy combat system. And to call it the spiritual successor or BG was laughable at times.

Mrwakka wrote...

No character customization, on rails story with little to no variation, flashy attacks, poor loot mechanics, party members don't change in appearance when you upgrade their gear. You want to talk about aged beasts, Dragon Age is regressing back to a style of gameplay that has been utterly destroyed by western rpgs in sales and calling it moving the genre forward.

When you upgrade your members costume it isn't upgrading the appearances just the stats, again DA: O wasn't groundbreaking and nor was it pushing the genre forward.

Dragon Age 2 isn't better than Dragon Age Origins. But it wasn't a bad game either. I think a lot of people are looking at Dragon Age: Origins with rose tinted glasses and conveniently forgetting the flaws that inhabited DA: O.

Modifié par DrZagreus, 24 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

I understand where the article is coming from, but I need "the numbers" to help understand the systems in certain games.  Playing DAII without the floating damage number/damage type/ability name made it harder to grasp.  That's one thing I'll give the game props for: the player has the ability to hide the system during combat or to see all the details.

[Galad22]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Whether or not you like the story in DA2 (and consider it story) depends much on if you like your stories to be epic (save the world from being destroyed) or more personal. DA2 had a personal story, that I found much more engaging that DA:O. DA:O was good ... but the plot was very generic. Big bad monster. Gather allies. Kill monster. An archetype, true, but it the story wasn't original in any way. The world was, though, which made it an amazing game. The DA2 story felt much more personal to me. It is "story", whether you like it or not.

Yes but it is not very good story. Stories can be made that doesn't involve saving the world. And best game with that sort of story is Planescape:Torment. DA2 story was simply very shallow compared to that.

[Khayness]

It's a personal story up until Act 3.

Then it turns into a Forrest Gump story, you are just a guy who was there. The game merciressly railroads you in the end of Act 3.

No excuses about not being generic save the world stuff for nostalgiafreaks will explain that.

Edit: As a known mage supporter, I should't engage in tedious repetitive battles with the people I'm fighting for, because their reasons were handwaved in by plot induced stupidity.

And the endgame choice boils down to a few different lines, you still have to push the button to make everyone awesome just for the kicks.

This is rushed development, it has nothing to do with these so called jaded glasses oldschool folks.

Modifié par Khayness, 24 mars 2011 - 05:47 .

[Dan UK]

First thing I did on this game after I killed my first enemy was find out how I turn the floating damage numbers on!

I didnt need to have bothered though, with the Star rating system and lack of party gearing options Im pretty sure my gran could have played it start to finish with no problems. Oh and also the little icons on the dialogue wheel. Personaly found them pretty patronising.

[DrGulag]

Number crunching and reading is boring.

"Mash one button while awesome things happen on the screen" is the way of the future. That's how it works in our society these days.

Just keep on spoonfeeding. No wonder the Japanese and Chinese youngsters have such good PISA results compared to us these days lol.

Modifié par DrGulag, 24 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Mooh Bear]

DrZagreus wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

DA2 won't be heralded as the greatest game of it's time.

To be honest neither will Dragon Age: Origins. I love DA: O, but doesn't matter how people try to sugarcoat it DA: O was a flawed game. From the mute protagonist to the dodgy combat system. And to call it the spiritual successor or BG was laughable at times.

Mrwakka wrote...

No character customization, on rails story with little to no variation, flashy attacks, poor loot mechanics, party members don't change in appearance when you upgrade their gear. You want to talk about aged beasts, Dragon Age is regressing back to a style of gameplay that has been utterly destroyed by western rpgs in sales and calling it moving the genre forward.

When you upgrade your members costume it isn't upgrading the appearances just the stats, again DA: O wasn't groundbreaking and nor was it pushing the genre forward.

Dragon Age 2 isn't better than Dragon Age Origins. But it wasn't a bad game either. I think a lot of people are looking at Dragon Age: Origins with rose tinted glasses and conveniently forgetting the flaws that inhabited DA: O.

I think you're missing the significance of DA: O. DA: O was a promise for gamers that loved BG and the Infinity engine games. DA: O was far from perfect, but its success meant more, better games were to come. Instead, Bioware decided to throw away most of the elements BG fans liked to produce DA2. And to add insult to injury, the game ended up half-done and buggy.

[Remois]

I don't consider DA2 as an rpg... An action adventure game maybe (yep the same as tomb raider)...
Even fallout 3/NV have more rpg elements...
If baldur's gate or ps:t is too much for you go and see fallout 2.
RPG are all about freedom to explore, uncover side story and even (though it's generally stupid) empty a town of its inhabitants... Your choices have effect the world and not some kind of I'm good or I'm bad.

You will never have the freedom of pen and paper, I know that...
What would you say if all fps became rail shooting games? I feel a bit like that

Modifié par Remois, 24 mars 2011 - 05:46 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

I am continually mystified that people keep trying to use the "story' of DA2 as a positive note. The entire narrative structure is inconsistent, repetitive, and one -dimensional. Bioware's choice to work on a framed narrative was an interesting one, and I did in fact enjoy much of the dialog and stylized cut scenes during that part, but unfortunately the frame seems to have become a running joke, with every inconsistency blamed on Varric's recollection or exaggeration. In addition, while I am generally against the single, pre-chosen voiced protagonist, I was willing to give DA2 a shot (I have played both ME's but they are like junk food, and I was hoping that the DA series might stay up to the standards of fine dining, but I suppose more people eat at McDonald's than at a 5 star restaurant), but unfortunately I felt that most of my characters development was going on during these cut scenes, where I had no input.

The NPCs reaction to the Hawke seem, at least to me, to have no basis in any sort of rational structure. You save them, they love you, they give you money, they try to kill you. Also, Hawke's psychic ability to locate the owners of random junk that he finds is amazing to say the least, why doesn't my PC just stop all this dangerous adventure and hire himself out as a finder and returner of lost items? My companions stories range from mildly compelling to banal, my interaction with them barely advances the plot at all. While DAO most of my companions annoyed me from time to time, except for Varric and Aveline, I literally wanted to set each and every one of them on fire.

EDIT - Also, how can this be a personal story? I don't get to live most of my life as the PC, I have no connection to the people around me, and while my social standing ostensibly changes, nothing in PC's life is substantionalably altered over the course of 7 years.

My actions in each act or inexplicable at best, and utterly insane at the worst. My actual trip to the Deep Roads needlessly occurs, only to introduce an completely absurd plot-twist that would make M. Night ashamed. I was not actually sure what I was doing in Act 2 at first or why I would do it instead of retiring out to the country in same estate, except the country side is endlessly repetitive and replete with Quanari and Human bandits who just seem to hang-out. Again, a problem is presented that I would only be tangentially interested in and I am given an over-complicated set of tools to resolve it.

The major conflict at the end of the game is, I think, the worst part of it. Bioware in the past is usually more sensitive in their treatment of complex social issues, and I expected something better out of a Canadian based company. And instead we get hyperbolic one-dimesional card-board cut-outs of people. Extremism is embraced and rational thought is thrown out the window, and we are presented with a city that should have torn itself apart long-before we ever arrived because every, single, person in the city is either insanely evil, insanely zealous, or insanely stupid.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 24 mars 2011 - 05:55 .

[Galad22]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Extremism is embraced and rational thought is thrown out the window, and we are presented with a city that should have torn itself apart long-before we ever arrived because every, single, person in the city is either insanely evil, insanely zealous, or insanely stupid.

This is what I thought. It's... odd.

Anyway nice post.

[addu2urmanapool]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

I am continually mystified that people keep trying to use the "story' of DA2 as a positive note. The entire narrative structure is inconsistent, repetitive, and one -dimensional. Bioware's choice to work on a framed narrative was an interesting one, and I did in fact enjoy much of the dialog and stylized cut scenes during that part, but unfortunately the frame seems to have become a running joke, with every inconsistency blamed on Varric's recollection or exaggeration. In addition, while I am generally against the single, pre-chosen voiced protagonist, I was willing to give DA2 a shot (I have played both ME's but they are like junk food, and I was hoping that the DA series might stay up to the standards of fine dining, but I suppose more people eat at McDonald's than at a 5 star restaurant), but unfortunately I felt that most of my characters development was going on during these cut scenes, where I had no input.

The NPCs reaction to the Hawke seem, at least to me, to have no basis in any sort of rational structure. You save them, they love you, they give you money, they try to kill you. Also, Hawke's psychic ability to locate the owners of random junk that he finds is amazing to say the least, why doesn't my PC just stop all this dangerous adventure and hire himself out as a finder and returner of lost items? My companions stories range from mildly compelling to banal, my interaction with them barely advances the plot at all. While DAO most of my companions annoyed me from time to time, except for Varric and Aveline, I literally wanted to set each and every one of them on fire.

EDIT - Also, how can this be a personal story? I don't get to live most of my life as the PC, I have no connection to the people around me, and while my social standing ostensibly changes, nothing in PC's life is substantionalably altered over the course of 7 years.

My actions in each act or inexplicable at best, and utterly insane at the worst. My actual trip to the Deep Roads needlessly occurs, only to introduce an completely absurd plot-twist that would make M. Night ashamed. I was not actually sure what I was doing in Act 2 at first or why I would do it instead of retiring out to the country in same estate, except the country side is endlessly repetitive and replete with Quanari and Human bandits who just seem to hang-out. Again, a problem is presented that I would only be tangentially interested in and I am given an over-complicated set of tools to resolve it.

The major conflict at the end of the game is, I think, the worst part of it. Bioware in the past is usually more sensitive in their treatment of complex social issues, and I expected something better out of a Canadian based company. And instead we get hyperbolic one-dimesional card-board cut-outs of people. Extremism is embraced and rational thought is thrown out the window, and we are presented with a city that should have torn itself apart long-before we ever arrived because every, single, person in the city is either insanely evil, insanely zealous, or insanely stupid.

Very well said. Why does Bioware only respond to the easy criticism, and never respond to well-thought out, insightful posts like this one?

[Merced652]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

I am continually mystified that people keep trying to use the "story' of DA2 as a positive note. The entire narrative structure is inconsistent, repetitive, and one -dimensional. Bioware's choice to work on a framed narrative was an interesting one, and I did in fact enjoy much of the dialog and stylized cut scenes during that part, but unfortunately the frame seems to have become a running joke, with every inconsistency blamed on Varric's recollection or exaggeration. In addition, while I am generally against the single, pre-chosen voiced protagonist, I was willing to give DA2 a shot (I have played both ME's but they are like junk food, and I was hoping that the DA series might stay up to the standards of fine dining, but I suppose more people eat at McDonald's than at a 5 star restaurant), but unfortunately I felt that most of my characters development was going on during these cut scenes, where I had no input.

The NPCs reaction to the Hawke seem, at least to me, to have no basis in any sort of rational structure. You save them, they love you, they give you money, they try to kill you. Also, Hawke's psychic ability to locate the owners of random junk that he finds is amazing to say the least, why doesn't my PC just stop all this dangerous adventure and hire himself out as a finder and returner of lost items? My companions stories range from mildly compelling to banal, my interaction with them barely advances the plot at all. While DAO most of my companions annoyed me from time to time, except for Varric and Aveline, I literally wanted to set each and every one of them on fire.

EDIT - Also, how can this be a personal story? I don't get to live most of my life as the PC, I have no connection to the people around me, and while my social standing ostensibly changes, nothing in PC's life is substantionalably altered over the course of 7 years.

My actions in each act or inexplicable at best, and utterly insane at the worst. My actual trip to the Deep Roads needlessly occurs, only to introduce an completely absurd plot-twist that would make M. Night ashamed. I was not actually sure what I was doing in Act 2 at first or why I would do it instead of retiring out to the country in same estate, except the country side is endlessly repetitive and replete with Quanari and Human bandits who just seem to hang-out. Again, a problem is presented that I would only be tangentially interested in and I am given an over-complicated set of tools to resolve it.

The major conflict at the end of the game is, I think, the worst part of it. Bioware in the past is usually more sensitive in their treatment of complex social issues, and I expected something better out of a Canadian based company. And instead we get hyperbolic one-dimesional card-board cut-outs of people. Extremism is embraced and rational thought is thrown out the window, and we are presented with a city that should have torn itself apart long-before we ever arrived because every, single, person in the city is either insanely evil, insanely zealous, or insanely stupid.

+rep

Good post. 

[Chromie]

I never watched Aliens.

[Khayness]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Bioware's choice to work on a framed narrative was an interesting one, and I did in fact enjoy much of the dialog and stylized cut scenes during that part, but unfortunately the frame seems to have become a running joke, with every inconsistency blamed on Varric's recollection or exaggeration.

Well, the Framed Narrative goes right on the list of DA2's wasted potentials.

A few more quests like Varric's family mansion one could have added a lot to the experience.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

That pretty much says it all.  DA2 (like ME2) was more focused more on the story side of an RPG than previous DAO/BG/NWN games.  Those games had great story, but loot and gear mechanics chewed away at the tasty part, inflating play times while players went through boring crap to get to the story.

For some of us, that "boring crap" is the content we actually enjoy.  It's not just loot and gear, but there's exploration and dialogue, and DA2 deprives us of much of that.

The trend of "more story, less numbers" is one that must continue.  There's just no reason to play Excel as a video game anymore.

Again, unless we like that sort of thing.

[Aermas]

I find inventories exciting & combat boring, we all have opinions, your's is wrong

[Aermas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

That pretty much says it all.  DA2 (like ME2) was more focused more on the story side of an RPG than previous DAO/BG/NWN games.  Those games had great story, but loot and gear mechanics chewed away at the tasty part, inflating play times while players went through boring crap to get to the story.

For some of us, that "boring crap" is the content we actually enjoy.  It's not just loot and gear, but there's exploration and dialogue, and DA2 deprives us of much of that.

The trend of "more story, less numbers" is one that must continue.  There's just no reason to play Excel as a video game anymore.

Again, unless we like that sort of thing.

Exactly what Sylvius said, we like it, so leave it alone.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I actually was so annoyed by that article that I had to register with Kotaku to comment on it. Here's what I said:

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Except the numbers are always necessary.

To be a roleplaying game, great swaths of the game need to be stat-driven. Certainly the combat needs to be stat-driven. If the player's physical skills are relevant to gameplay outcomes, then the player can't reasonably be said to be playing a character. Instead, he's acting through an avatar, and that's not roleplaying.

You could put all those numbers under the hood, but if they still matter I suspect that would just annoy players. Note how much people didn't like Mass Effect's stat-driven aiming.

[Mage One]

I largely agree. When I heard the inventory was being removed in ME2, I was very, very happy. I think the present system could use some tweaking, sure, but the fact of the matter was I was tired of sorting through all the junk gear and trying to decide whether five points of damage reduction or 50 points of shield would maximize my defences more efficiently. It was became a mini-game I was forced to play inbetween missions that I had little interest in. What I wanted to do was get on to the next planet, not the next planet I would spend half an hour combing for another medallion, but the next planet with some story, and all that other stuff ultimately was just getting in the way.

This is why I'm opposed to the notion of DA2 being less of an RPG. An RPG to me is in the story, the non-trivial quests, and the choices. (Except in JRPGs. There are no real choices there.) Sticking with my earlier example, inventory management and armor equipping has a place, sure, but it certainly is not central to the experience. Still, I don't think DAII found the right balance. In fact, I think it missed it by quite a bit. I don't see the point of glutting our inventory with junk items that have no description, use or graphic, for example. If that's the plan, I argue they should just give us the money instead. The junk section is still useful for dumping all the items you don't want and selling them all off at once, but the inclusion of "junk" I feel is going for flavor in the wrong ways.

Anyway, thank you for the article. He didn't make the best case for it, but I don't hear enough people addressing the fact that the mechanics required by limited technology have become an intrinsic part of the genre's flavor now that they're technologically obsolete. The recognition of this is one of the reasons I'm as interested in Bioware's new games as I am, because I, like them, imagine there must be a better way. I'm not sure precisely what it is yet. I don't think anyone is, but they're looking for it, and I'm grateful for the fact.

[TJSolo]

There is nothing obsolete about inventory. Technology-wise they are still just list or arrays...whatevs.

Modifié par TJSolo, 24 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Mage One wrote...

An RPG to me is in the story, the non-trivial quests, and the choices.

I'm inclined to agree with what you say here, but I disagree with your definitions.

First, whether a quest is trivial is, I think, an in-character decision, so that falls in the "choices" category.  Similarly, the story is something that is created by my character's actions, so again that falls in the "choices" category.  And, inventory management is a sequence of choices, and if you're making those choices in-character then you're roleplaying.

That's what I want from an RPG.  Roleplaying.  That's all I want.  But roleplaying is choices, and those choices need to take place within a coherent setting in order to allow us to maintain a coherent character design while making those choices.

Most obviously, the choices made in dialogue are the fundamental roleplaying content in an RPG, and these new games BioWare's designing with the paraphrase system are working against the player by hiding the choices from us (and my voicing the PC, they're forcing specific line deliveries on us, thus depriving us of another choice).

The choices are what matter, but all of these new features are taking choices away from us.

[Chaos_1001]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Check this out on Kotaku.

That pretty much says it all.  DA2 (like ME2) was more focused more on the story side of an RPG than previous DAO/BG/NWN games.  Those games had great story, but loot and gear mechanics chewed away at the tasty part, inflating play times while players went through boring crap to get to the story.

DA2 did skimp a bit on the exploration, there's no way around that, and yeah Kirkwall could have felt more bustling and alive.  But in service of the story, it did a great job.

The trend of "more story, less numbers" is one that must continue.  There's just no reason to play Excel as a video game anymore.

With the exception of Origins, I completly agree on your point. This must have shiny pixels ( armor / weapons) is in fact a World of Warcraft "programmed" mentality. This game in itself was never about loot although the game mechanics ( could have been improved ) were actually very good. Overall DA 2 delivered what it was intended to deliver. ( here comes the flames from the haters ) 

[Mooh Bear]

Mage One wrote...

I largely agree. When I heard the inventory was being removed in ME2, I was very, very happy. I think the present system could use some tweaking, sure, but the fact of the matter was I was tired of sorting through all the junk gear and trying to decide whether five points of damage reduction or 50 points of shield would maximize my defences more efficiently. It was became a mini-game I was forced to play inbetween missions that I had little interest in. What I wanted to do was get on to the next planet, not the next planet I would spend half an hour combing for another medallion, but the next planet with some story, and all that other stuff ultimately was just getting in the way.

This is why I'm opposed to the notion of DA2 being less of an RPG. An RPG to me is in the story, the non-trivial quests, and the choices. (Except in JRPGs. There are no real choices there.) Sticking with my earlier example, inventory management and armor equipping has a place, sure, but it certainly is not central to the experience. Still, I don't think DAII found the right balance. In fact, I think it missed it by quite a bit. I don't see the point of glutting our inventory with junk items that have no description, use or graphic, for example. If that's the plan, I argue they should just give us the money instead. The junk section is still useful for dumping all the items you don't want and selling them all off at once, but the inclusion of "junk" I feel is going for flavor in the wrong ways.

Anyway, thank you for the article. He didn't make the best case for it, but I don't hear enough people addressing the fact that the mechanics required by limited technology have become an intrinsic part of the genre's flavor now that they're technologically obsolete. The recognition of this is one of the reasons I'm as interested in Bioware's new games as I am, because I, like them, imagine there must be a better way. I'm not sure precisely what it is yet. I don't think anyone is, but they're looking for it, and I'm grateful for the fact.

What you're describing is an action-adventure game, not a RPG as most gamers understand it. There's nothing wrong with action-adventure games. ME2 is a true hybrid, blurring the line between TPS, adventure and RPG. It's a good game and I enjoyed it. But it doesn't mean every frickin' RPG has to turn into a ME clone. DA: O was far from that and that's what a lot of fans enjoyed about it. I think there's enough room for several type of games to co-exist. I think tactical party-driven RPGs have their place and I would buy them, if they existed. DA: O showed there's a market for them. It did not sell over 3.5 millions copies on a misunderstanding, did it?

Modifié par Mooh Bear, 24 mars 2011 - 07:00 .