269 réponses à ce sujet

[aliasbatman]

When a forum poster decided to criticize the developer for
neglecting the core role-playing game market - straight male gamers -
when developing romance prospects for Dragon Age II, BioWare writer
David Gaider's response was swift and elegant.
BioWare forum poster Bastal obviously feels strongly that the
supporting characters in Dragon Age II were more geared towards women
and homosexuals than they were straight males. In a forum post titled
"Bioware Neglected Their Main Demographic: The Straight Male Gamer",
Bastal spoke his peace.

When I say BioWare neglected The Straight Male Gamer, I don't mean
that they ignored male gamers. The romance options, Isabella and
Merrill, were clearly designed for the straight male gamers in mind.
Unfortunately, those choices are what one would call "exotic" choices.
They appeal to a subset of male gamers and while its true you can't make
a romance option everyone will love, with Isabella and Merrill it seems
like they weren't even going for an option most males will like. And
the fact is, they could have. They had the resources to add another
romance option, but instead chose to implement a gay romance with
Anders.

Even from that brief excerpt you can see the main issue with the
post. Bastal speaks for straight male gamers as a whole. Being a
straight male gamer myself, I Isabella and Merrill were the two romantic
encounters I experienced during my play through of Dragon Age II, and I
was far from disappointed. Of course I am one and not most, but I
wouldn't dream of speaking for most straight male gamers, especially
when it comes to matters of romance.
But Bastal felt it was his place to post this topic not once, but
several times, the forum equivalent of jumping up and down and shouting,
"Hey, look at me!"
BioWare lead writer David Gaider looked, and found the topic wanting. First he addressed the multiple postings.

To the OP: doing the same act repeatedly and expecting different
results is the definition of insanity. What you hope to achieve by
posting the same thread over and over again I can't honestly say.

He followed that statement up by calling out some of the other
posters for calling the original poster a troll, discounting his
opinion. Bastal case was eloquently presented, after all, even if it was
scattered about a bit liberally.
And then Gaider got into the meat of the issue.

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer".
They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither
straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good
numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar
sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal
evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant...
and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to
play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone
with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that
stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the
majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than
anyone else.

The problem lies, as Gaider further explains, if the perception that the majority must be catered to.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with
hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as
"political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege
always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that
they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything
wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all
about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to
not getting what they want.

And suddenly I feel bad for being a straight male gamer. This wasn't
Gaider's intent, of course, but after reading the words of someone
claiming to speak for my demographic turned about in such a fashion, I
can't help but feel a little bit dirty.
While I deal with straight white male guilt, I leave you with Gaider's sharp and poignant parting words.

And the person who says that the only way to please them is to
restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it
least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

Via : http://kotaku.com/#!...xuality-balance

No comments

[FellowerOfOdin]

Make a homosex option at character creation, every problem is solved.

Seriously though, David Gaider has no clue. He says that romances are for everyone - and that's not true. It's simple as that. If you are a straight man, you do not have any straight romances in the ENTIRE game as everyone is bisexual. 

So basically, David says that the romances are for everyone...but for straight people.

Eloquent, eh? 

Modifié par FellowerOfOdin, 24 mars 2011 - 05:05 .

[City6]

Given all the problems with DA2, the way they have juggled the romances - so they they offer content for everyone without undermining the characters - is one of the best things in the game.

He's perfectly right about the root cause being privilege. In the other threads complaining about all the characters being open to all players depending on the Hawke you create, even the more reasonable people boiled down to one thing: "I'd have enjoyed it more if the gayness was kept to one gay character I could ignore".

They're essentially saying it's fine in DA:O - that the only same-sex romance is ok when it's also a straight option and there are also entirely straight options, but not ok when the only straight options are also same-sex options. In essence, there's no problem when gay gamers have to have that, but it's an outrage when straight gamers do (or people roleplaying straight/gay). That's the backbone of heterosexist privilege.

[Haexpane]

This is the problem w/ DA2 and ME2, everyone argues over the B-Movie grade story and characters.

It's the GAMPEPLAY and RPG elements (removal of such things) that is the core issue people have.

[BlameBot]

It's not what they did, it's how they did it. Not everyone in Kirkwall is bisexual. Why would the majority of your party members be?!

[the_one_54321]

The root problem is that they didn't spend enough time developing the game.

"Fair options for everyone" means a range of characters of different sexualities. It doesn't mean "everyone is bi." That's a short cut.

[BlameBot]

Like a number of other things in the game, it feels like a damned cop out.

[City6]

BlameBot wrote...

It's not what they did, it's how they did it. Not everyone in Kirkwall is bisexual. Why would the majority of your party members be?!

If you read the codex entries for the history in DA:O, it seems that an awful lot of people in this world *are* bisexual.

[Nozybidaj]

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer".
They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither
straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good
numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar
sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal
evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant...
and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to
play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone
with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that
stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the
majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than
anyone else.

I think that was extremly well said.  I find I don't often agree with Mr. Gaider on some topics, I myself wouldn't even see some of this content (none at all in DA2 actually), but I completely agree with him here. /thumbsup

[BlameBot]

City6 wrote...

BlameBot wrote...

It's not what they did, it's how they did it. Not everyone in Kirkwall is bisexual. Why would the majority of your party members be?!

If you read the codex entries for the history in DA:O, it seems that an awful lot of people in this world *are* bisexual.

I did read the codex entries, and I never got that feeling. Could you cite examples?

[FellowerOfOdin]

City6 wrote...

Given all the problems with DA2, the way they have juggled the romances - so they they offer content for everyone without undermining the characters - is one of the best things in the game.

He's perfectly right about the root cause being privilege. In the other threads complaining about all the characters being open to all players depending on the Hawke you create, even the more reasonable people boiled down to one thing: "I'd have enjoyed it more if the gayness was kept to one gay character I could ignore".

That's not the case. In DA:O, Zevhran was the only gay character and his sexuality fit to his overall character. In DA:RtP, Bioware designed the characters (which did not take a lot of time) and then made everyone bisexual, a cheap advance to all homosexual players out there. It's chea, insulting and immoral to only use one's sexuality to cater to more people.

(and yes, having the option to just ignore some people or even kill Zevhran was AWESOME)

[the_one_54321]

Also this is argument is a fallacy:

Because [A] was neglected before, it is justifiable to neglect [B] in the future.

That is not justified or fair, it is retaliatory. What would be fair is to create a range of options for everyone. Or else don't even try and include all the options if you think they can't all be done. Do only the ones you think can be done properly. And no, that doesn't mean just straight female LIs.

[BlameBot]

Nozybidaj wrote...

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer".
They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither
straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good
numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar
sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal
evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant...
and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to
play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone
with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that
stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the
majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than
anyone else.

I think that was extremly well said.  I find I don't often agree with Mr. Gaider on some topics, I myself wouldn't even see some of this content (none at all in DA2 actually), but I completely agree with him here. /thumbsup

It was well-said, and if he was defending Origins or Mass Effect (1 or 2), I'd stand right by his side and defend it with him. It's not what was done, it's how they implimented it. Metagaming or not, it was poorly done. Could you see Alistair shacking up with your male Warden?

[City6]

BlameBot wrote...

City6 wrote...

BlameBot wrote...

It's not what they did, it's how they did it. Not everyone in Kirkwall is bisexual. Why would the majority of your party members be?!

If you read the codex entries for the history in DA:O, it seems that an awful lot of people in this world *are* bisexual.

I did read the codex entries, and I never got that feeling. Could you cite examples?

There's a long chunk of one of the 2000 post romance threads on the DA:O boards that goes into it. Of the people explicitly romantically connected to other people in the histories, it breaks down as something like 40% are not traditionally "straight".

Dragon Age is apparently not unlike Caprica. A lot of people apparently bend both ways.

[City6]

BlameBot wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

The romances in the game are not for "the straight male gamer".
They're for everyone. We have a lot of fans, many of whom are neither
straight nor male, and they deserve no less attention. We have good
numbers, after all, on the number of people who actually used similar
sorts of content in DAO and thus don't need to resort to anecdotal
evidence to support our idea that their numbers are not insignificant...
and that's ignoring the idea that they don't have just as much right to
play the kind of game they wish as anyone else. The "rights" of anyone
with regards to a game are murky at best, but anyone who takes that
stance must apply it equally to both the minority as well as the
majority. The majority has no inherent "right" to get more options than
anyone else.

I think that was extremly well said.  I find I don't often agree with Mr. Gaider on some topics, I myself wouldn't even see some of this content (none at all in DA2 actually), but I completely agree with him here. /thumbsup

It was well-said, and if he was defending Origins or Mass Effect (1 or 2), I'd stand right by his side and defend it with him. It's not what was done, it's how they implimented it. Metagaming or not, it was poorly done. Could you see Alistair shacking up with your male Warden?

Yes! If you play the conversations right, a male warden and Alistair can develop  a very edge-of-something bromance, that's extremely well written.

I felt my male warden had a more romantic relationship going on with Alistair than the sexy one he had going on with Morrigan.

[Nozybidaj]

BlameBot wrote...
It was well-said, and if he was defending Origins or Mass Effect (1 or 2), I'd stand right by his side and defend it with him. It's not what was done, it's how they implimented it. Metagaming or not, it was poorly done. Could you see Alistair shacking up with your male Warden?

Me? No.  But I am sure there are a lot of folks out there that could.  I'd bet dollars to donuts you can find a mod for it on Nexus.

In both ME games and DA:O there were options folks wanted that weren't available.  Whether that is not the case in DA2 because of design intent or because of time and resource constraints is probably rather irrelevant.  I'm sure the folks that use those options are much happier because of it.  I don't see how their enjoyment of the game impacts mine in anyway (assuming of course I had purchased DA2).

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 24 mars 2011 - 05:20 .

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...
Yes! If you play the conversations right, a male warden and Alistair can develop  a very edge-of-something bromance, that's extremely well written.

I felt my male warden had a more romantic relationship going on with Alistair than the sexy one he had going on with Morrigan.

Then you were searching for it and found it because you wanted to. I played Alistair to almost 100% favor with my male Warden(s). It never felt like there was any kind of sexual tension. He was just an excelent friend.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 mars 2011 - 05:22 .

[BlameBot]

What about the annoyment involved in realizing Male or Female really is just an aesthetic choice in this game?

Modifié par BlameBot, 24 mars 2011 - 05:21 .

[cofcof]

bioware is racist towards dwarfs, i want some hot gay dwarf sex, also gay darkspawn romance

and flemeth romance for those who love elderly people + some other old guy gay romance

maybe also 5 year old child romance for muslims

everbody must be happy according to david gayder

[MrWakka]

I don't disagree with the idea of bi, gay or straight characters, but I feel like it was all poorly implemented in the game.

[City6]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

City6 wrote...

Given all the problems with DA2, the way they have juggled the romances - so they they offer content for everyone without undermining the characters - is one of the best things in the game.

He's perfectly right about the root cause being privilege. In the other threads complaining about all the characters being open to all players depending on the Hawke you create, even the more reasonable people boiled down to one thing: "I'd have enjoyed it more if the gayness was kept to one gay character I could ignore".

That's not the case. In DA:O, Zevhran was the only gay character and his sexuality fit to his overall character. In DA:RtP, Bioware designed the characters (which did not take a lot of time) and then made everyone bisexual, a cheap advance to all homosexual players out there. It's chea, insulting and immoral to only use one's sexuality to cater to more people.

(and yes, having the option to just ignore some people or even kill Zevhran was AWESOME)

The 4 characters in DA2 make perfect sense as open to all players. Moreso that Zevan , who was depicted as a "hump-anything-****".

Nobody loose here. Players playing traight have the same number of options. Players playing gay have had their options doubled. The only people complaining are complaining that other people have more choice, not that they have less.

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Yes! If you play the conversations right, a male warden and Alistair can develop  a very edge-of-something bromance, that's extremely well written.

I felt my male warden had a more romantic relationship going on with Alistair than the sexy one he had going on with Morrigan.

Then you were searching for it and found it because you wanted to. I played Alistair to almost 100% favor with my male Warden(s). It never felt like there was any kind of sexual tension. He was just an excelent friend.

Doesn't that go to show that the characters are particularly well-written then? 

[Saibh]

City6 wrote...

Doesn't that go to show that the characters are particularly well-written then?

No, Alistair is straight. You are searching for something that isn't there. It's fine to have different intepretations, but trying to claim he was attracted to your Warden but it just never got there is silly.

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Yes! If you play the conversations right, a male warden and Alistair can develop  a very edge-of-something bromance, that's extremely well written.

I felt my male warden had a more romantic relationship going on with Alistair than the sexy one he had going on with Morrigan.

Then you were searching for it and found it because you wanted to. I played Alistair to almost 100% favor with my male Warden(s). It never felt like there was any kind of sexual tension. He was just an excelent friend.

Doesn't that go to show that the characters are particularly well-written then?

That particular example shows that one character in DA:O was well written.

As an asside: "making all LIs bi is bad writing" != "Characters in DAII were all badly written."

[Puzzlewell]

I still stand by my thought of having JE being one of the best handlers of sexuality. Both Silk Fox and Sky are open to both genders, and it's handled so well. I've never played a male character in the game so I can't speak from experience with how Sky is handled, but from what I've read you actually have to work for it. Silk Fox I always feel is handled so well. When the relationship starts building she pauses to question how her court would view the Princess being with another woman and then decides "Consequences be damned, I care for you and that's all that matters."

I've only romanced Isabela so far and therefore can't comment on the other ones (Merrill is my next LI ) but while I am thankful that she is open to LadyHawke's some of the dialogue does feel like Hawke could be sitting there going "Yes, I get the point. You've slept with a chunk of men. How do I fit into the equation?" but after fully completing her romance it feels sweet (even if it's written this way for both MaleHawke and LadyHawke), because she actually finds *love* with my LadyHawke.