269 réponses à ce sujet

[Chriagon]

The characters are not bisexual in the narrow sense of the word. They're just - like Mr. Gaider said - open to everyone.

The argumentation that there're no straight romances in DA2 because everyone is bisexual is nonsense imo. Following that logic there would be no gay or lesbian romances as well.

I think Mr. Gaider is spot on with what he said.

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...
Nobody loose here.

Wrong. Someone always loses. This time I (and those that share my particular preferences) lost, because I (we) didn't get the kind of romanceable character I wanted and had to deal with a lame writing short cut on top of it. And as it stands, the only thing I am complaining about here is the lame writing short cut.

[BlameBot]

Bisexual isn't really a narrow choice, fella.

[Korusus]

As usual David Gaider finds himself defending the indefensible. The romances in DA2 were badly done. Making every romanceable NPC bisexual was cutting corners, like every other cut corner in the game. If you break it down beyond just sex, it seems to me that there's only one real romance option for either gender/sexuality (Anders and Merril). More evidence of a rushed game.

Defending the lack of options by defining it as the majority not being catered to is nonsense. It's no different than saying they didn't think it would be "such a big deal" if they recycled the same areas thirty or fourty times. One more nail in the coffin of BioWare's reputation.

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Yes! If you play the conversations right, a male warden and Alistair can develop  a very edge-of-something bromance, that's extremely well written.

I felt my male warden had a more romantic relationship going on with Alistair than the sexy one he had going on with Morrigan.

Then you were searching for it and found it because you wanted to. I played Alistair to almost 100% favor with my male Warden(s). It never felt like there was any kind of sexual tension. He was just an excelent friend.

Doesn't that go to show that the characters are particularly well-written then?

That particular example shows that one character in DA:O was well written.

As an asside: "making all LIs bi is bad writing" != "Characters in DAII were all badly written."

I agree with you that Alistair was written with a nuance that exceedes anything in DA2 (I'd say that applies to all the companion interations, actually. I actively saught out chats in DAO, and enjoyed them more than the rest of the game), but I don't buy this "all bi = bad writing" idea.

All four characters make solid, logical sense for what they are, and the way they are presented to you depends on your character choice. If Anders is enjoyng your company as a female Hawke, he's probably not going to annouce "By the way, I once went out with this guy called Ron". It's not going to enhance his chances wth you.

Sexuality is more fluid in Thedas. This has been established in canon. People care less about what your porking, but rather who you're porking.

[Warheadz]

My problem with the romances is the fact that nearly everyone in Thedas is bi-sexual. I'ts utterly ridiculous!

[Merced652]

Whats next? The option to speak with a impediment at character creation?

[SoulRebel_1979]

Merced652 wrote...

Whats next? The option to speak with a impediment at character creation?

No, the option to romance a Nug.

[Bluumberry]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

That's not the case. In DA:O, Zevhran was the only gay character and his sexuality fit to his overall character. In DA:RtP, Bioware designed the characters (which did not take a lot of time) and then made everyone bisexual, a cheap advance to all homosexual players out there. It's chea, insulting and immoral to only use one's sexuality to cater to more people.

(and yes, having the option to just ignore some people or even kill Zevhran was AWESOME)

Zevran wasn't the only gay option, Leliana was as well so get your facts right.

And how is it cheap to make more options available to others? Not everyone who goes for gay relationships in a game are gay and not all gamers are male. Everyone now has more options to role play with.

And no, it's not awesome to ignore/kill someone just because of their sexual orientation. Zevran was a well written character even outside of romance and since he prefers women, I still don't see what everyones problem is.

[Saibh]

Korusus wrote...

As usual David Gaider finds himself defending the indefensible. The romances in DA2 were badly done. Making every romanceable NPC bisexual was cutting corners, like every other cut corner in the game. If you break it down beyond just sex, it seems to me that there's only one real romance option for either gender/sexuality (Anders and Merril). More evidence of a rushed game.

Defending the lack of options by defining it as the majority not being catered to is nonsense. It's no different than saying they didn't think it would be "such a big deal" if they recycled the same areas thirty or fourty times. One more nail in the coffin of BioWare's reputation.

Actually, making them all romancable adds more content, not less. Say what you will about the romances, but be fair.

[the_one_54321]

BlameBot wrote...
Bisexual isn't really a narrow choice, fella.

I'm not talking about having a female that isn't also into females. My favorite romance in DA:O was Leliana, for instance. I'm talking about the characters themselves. I have found Merril and Isabela thoroughly unattractive.

Saibh wrote...
Actually, making them all romancable adds more content, not less. Say what you will about the romances, but be fair.

What would have added more content in a good way would have been to write more characters that fill more roles. Not make them blank and variable based on your character gender choices.

And if they didn't have enough time to write mroe, well to me this still screams of "rushed."

Modifié par the_one_54321, 24 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[BlameBot]

Bluumberry wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

That's not the case. In DA:O, Zevhran was the only gay character and his sexuality fit to his overall character. In DA:RtP, Bioware designed the characters (which did not take a lot of time) and then made everyone bisexual, a cheap advance to all homosexual players out there. It's chea, insulting and immoral to only use one's sexuality to cater to more people.

(and yes, having the option to just ignore some people or even kill Zevhran was AWESOME)

Zevran wasn't the only gay option, Leliana was as well so get your facts right.

And how is it cheap to make more options available to others? Not everyone who goes for gay relationships in a game are gay and not all gamers are male. Everyone now has more options to role play with.

And no, it's not awesome to ignore/kill someone just because of their sexual orientation. Zevran was a well written character even outside of romance and since he prefers women, I still don't see what everyones problem is.

Not. Talking. About. Origins.

And he preferred anything with a face and was breathing.

[Bluumberry]

BlameBot wrote...

Bluumberry wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

That's not the case. In DA:O, Zevhran was the only gay character and his sexuality fit to his overall character. In DA:RtP, Bioware designed the characters (which did not take a lot of time) and then made everyone bisexual, a cheap advance to all homosexual players out there. It's chea, insulting and immoral to only use one's sexuality to cater to more people.

(and yes, having the option to just ignore some people or even kill Zevhran was AWESOME)

Zevran wasn't the only gay option, Leliana was as well so get your facts right.

And how is it cheap to make more options available to others? Not everyone who goes for gay relationships in a game are gay and not all gamers are male. Everyone now has more options to role play with.

And no, it's not awesome to ignore/kill someone just because of their sexual orientation. Zevran was a well written character even outside of romance and since he prefers women, I still don't see what everyones problem is.

Not. Talking. About. Origins.

And he preferred anything with a face and was breathing.

He was talking about Origins.

[OriginalTibs]

aliasbatman wrote...
...
The problem lies, as Gaider further explains, if the perception that the majority must be catered to.

And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with
hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as
"political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege
always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that
they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything
wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all
about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to
not getting what they want.

And suddenly I feel bad for being a straight male gamer. This wasn't Gaider's intent, of course, but after reading the words of someone claiming to speak for my demographic turned about in such a fashion, I can't help but feel a little bit dirty.
While I deal with straight white male guilt, I leave you with Gaider's sharp and poignant parting words.
...

I don't believe you should feel that way, but there can be no fair argument with your 'feeling'. You identified with the straight male gamer. That straight male gamer needed to take a look at himself to mature well. You did look at yourself, and you questioned well. That should make you feel more clean, my friend. That is an accomplishment, if I am any judge.

Please consider the signs of your merit: You represented Mr. Gaider's words fairly, I think, without being defensive. You questioned yourself when you recognized a dissonance with what you evaluated to be truth.

Put bluntly, anyone who assumes the truth of their beliefs is in danger of becoming a bigot. All it takes is being intolerant with those who disagree. Gaider was spot on, and remarkably polite about it.  This is not to say the straight male poster he was talking to was a bigot, but he should look at himself as you have yourself.

Really, we are most of us bigoted in some way or another, aren't we? We learned the beliefs we were taught by people who were, aftr all, only human. That doesn't prevent our recognizing dissonance for what it is and correcting for it. There are liberal bigotries as there are conservative ones, religious bigotries as well as atheistic ones. It is part of being human it seems... but it is also part of being human to recognize and be aware of reality, whether we prefer it or not, and 'shape our future' to be better. We amend our ways.

That isn't something to feel dirty about: it is something to find victory over, to become proud of. There is no braver man than he who overcame his fear to do the right thing. There is no better neighbor than he who overcame his distrust to help another. If you were perfect by nature you could claim no credit for it, after all. Become yourself, and be victorious.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 24 mars 2011 - 05:56 .

[City6]

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Nobody loose here.

Wrong. Someone always loses. This time I (and those that share my particular preferences) lost, because I (we) didn't get the kind of romanceable character I wanted and had to deal with a lame writing short cut on top of it. And as it stands, the only thing I am complaining about here is the lame writing short cut.

What kind of romanceable character did you want?

[Saibh]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What would have added more content in a good way would have been to write more characters that fill more roles. Not make them blank and variable based on your character gender choices.

And if they didn't have enough time to write mroe, well to me this still screams of "rushed."

That's fine, and, I agree, the romances (particularly Anders' and particularly for women) felt rushed and stilted. I was just correcting the idea that they some how "cut corners" by adding to content. 

[Xilizhra]

'Twas a wonderful thing, all in all, given the impossibility of having wholly gay LIs.

[the_one_54321]

City6 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Nobody loose here.

Wrong. Someone always loses. This time I (and those that share my particular preferences) lost, because I (we) didn't get the kind of romanceable character I wanted and had to deal with a lame writing short cut on top of it. And as it stands, the only thing I am complaining about here is the lame writing short cut.

What kind of romanceable character did you want?

Anything similar to Leliana would have been great. Ideally, I would like a girl/woman who represents a normal everyday person that is thrown into extraordinary circumstances and rises to the challenge.

That was my major problem with all the characters in DAII. They all represent some kind of extreme characterization. Nothing wrong or bad about that in or of itself, but it is not what I was looking for.

[Bluumberry]

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

City6 wrote...
Nobody loose here.

Wrong. Someone always loses. This time I (and those that share my particular preferences) lost, because I (we) didn't get the kind of romanceable character I wanted and had to deal with a lame writing short cut on top of it. And as it stands, the only thing I am complaining about here is the lame writing short cut.

What kind of romanceable character did you want?

Anything similar to Leliana would have been great. Ideally, I would like a girl/woman who represents a normal everyday person that is thrown into extraordinary circumstances and rises to the challenge.

That was my major problem with all the characters in DAII. They all represent some kind of extreme characterization. Nothing wrong or bad about that in or of itself, but it is not what I was looking for.

Funny, because I found Leliana boring since she was so normal.

I guess Aveline would have been your type then

[the_one_54321]

Bluumberry wrote...
Funny, because I found Leliana boring since she was so normal.

I guess Aveline would have been your type then

The problem with Aveline is that she is an extreme warrior characterization. "Woman shaped battering ram" is how I believe one of the characters described her.

But you thinking Leliana was borning illustrates my point. This is not about "I want what I want." I know I may not get what I want, but at least present things in a good not-lazy way.

[Nozybidaj]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What would have added more content in a good way would have been to write more characters that fill more roles. Not make them blank and variable based on your character gender choices.

And if they didn't have enough time to write mroe, well to me this still screams of "rushed."

I can't really disagree with that.  I'm sure resource constraints probably led to what you received in DA2 as much as anything.  I'm not defending that.  

I personally am kinda on the fence here.  It is easy to say "make more characters and not make them ALL bi" right up until you find that one female in the party you think would be just perfect for your straight male character and guess what?  She only digs chicks.   I can't off the top of my head think of an instance where that is the case.  Usually the female romance is either straight or bi.

I'd love to see Mr. Gaider include an incredibly written and beautiful character that only swings that way just to hear all the folks today complaining about loss of character individuality start saying "why can't she go both ways???"   It's easy to campaign for or against something when the win always falls on your side of the fence.