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[Arppis]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

The writers used a classic characterization trick.

Which did't work, because things like Isabela bein bugged if gone friendly path, and both Isabela and Fenris being so shallow and, to some people, repulsive, that noone even bothered to try and dig deeper into their personalities (also, actor who played Fenris sometimes caused "I AM ACTING" shouts from my mouth).
Take Sten for example - the situations he was in, his voice, character, everything just pulled you to him and gave a feeling of need to solve his quest just to find out why he did what he did.

With his "I have no feelings" voice? Please.

[Lithuasil]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

The writers used a classic characterization trick.

Which did't work, because things like Isabela bein bugged if gone friendly path, and both Isabela and Fenris being so shallow and, to some people, repulsive, that noone even bothered to try and dig deeper into their personalities (also, actor who played Fenris sometimes caused "I AM ACTING" shouts from my mouth).
Take Sten for example - the situations he was in, his voice, character, everything just pulled you to him and gave a feeling of need to solve his quest just to find out why he did what he did.

The only thing I have *ever* wanted to find out about sten, is if his death is more painful if you leave him to the spawn, or if you just stab him in the gut and leave him.

Also, the Actor who voiced Fenris did a squee inducingly awesome job :|

[Lianaar]

Oh my, the first time it was Fenris' voice that made me jerk my head and go: whoa, what's that again? Who are you there? Let me take a closer look.
Alas, we all have differing tastes. I have been thoroughly enjoying Fenris' voice acting.

[RevanchistStenn]

Arppis wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

The writers used a classic characterization trick.

Which did't work, because things like Isabela bein bugged if gone friendly path, and both Isabela and Fenris being so shallow and, to some people, repulsive, that noone even bothered to try and dig deeper into their personalities (also, actor who played Fenris sometimes caused "I AM ACTING" shouts from my mouth).
Take Sten for example - the situations he was in, his voice, character, everything just pulled you to him and gave a feeling of need to solve his quest just to find out why he did what he did.

With his "I have no feelings" voice? Please.

I agree with DTDN, at least in terms of Fenris (especially the acting.) Sten didn't speak with no feelings. I felt from the beginning he as a character was deliberately trying to be impenetrable to the Warden because he didn't want to share. He was ashamed, without his sword and this without his place in the world. His ability to simultaneously look down and still feel inadequate was, I thought, very expertly pulled off.

[Shahravaz_]

Isabela's story with her husband and her secret lover is quiet complex, same with Fenris his thoughts on freedom and the island, the problem is that you mostly need to romance them to fully understand them which is quiet realistic considering real people in life.

[Derax]

DanteCousland wrote...

Seriously weren't Isabela and Fenris the most 2 dimensional characters. They literally have no development, I mean okayt granted Isabela returns with the tome of koslun if she romances you but she is still exactly the same otherwise and that doesnt stop her making stupid decisions later.
With Fenris I doubt its worth discussion, throughtout the entire game no matter what there are only two aspects to him hating the Magisters and brooding.
Gaaaah

Agreed, I only liked Isabela because I'm a male heterosexuel guy and she looked nice like s**** from the typical rural disco in the next village, not really the same reason why i liked npcs in bioware titles before  though.....

And no, her story is not really complex ^^ And also not really logical (ok i admit you should not look forl ogic in the development of personalities )

Modifié par Derax, 24 mars 2011 - 07:52 .

[nicodeemus327]

Derax wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Seriously weren't Isabela and Fenris the most 2 dimensional characters. They literally have no development, I mean okayt granted Isabela returns with the tome of koslun if she romances you but she is still exactly the same otherwise and that doesnt stop her making stupid decisions later.
With Fenris I doubt its worth discussion, throughtout the entire game no matter what there are only two aspects to him hating the Magisters and brooding.
Gaaaah

Agreed, I only liked Isabela because I'm a male heterosexuel guy and she looked nice like s**** from the typical rural disco in the next village, not really the same reason why i liked npcs in bioware titles before  though.....

I think that says more about you being a shallow two dimensional person than the character. There's a lot depth waiting to be explored for each companion.

[TheJediSaint]

Just as a response to the original post. Yes, Isabella liked boats and sex; and yes, Fenris was very broody and dislikes mages, but I disagree with the assertions that they were two dimensional.

If you pay attention to Isabella, you notice a couple of things. One is that despite her "liberated" lifestyle, she has extremely low self esteem. In fact, her self-esteem issues are likely part of why she tends to sleep with anything on dry land. Also, there is a part of her that very strongly wishes she was a better person, that is why she freed the slaves in her backstory, and that is why she returns the Tome of Koslun if your F/R is high enough.

Fenris' hatred of magic and magic users is pretty well justified, considering how he was treated by Danarius. His broodiness comes from the fact that his life after getting his lyrium tattoos can pretty much be summed up by his time as a slave and then his time running from slavery. His time in kirkwall is literally the first time in his life that he has a real chance to get to know people. His story arc is as much about him learning to accept help from others as it is about his desire for revenge.

Like many interesting characters, both Isabella and Fenris have traits that tend to stand out, but if you take the time to peel away the layers, you will find that they are both nuanced, deep characters.

[Lianaar]

Isa and Fen really do have that low self esteem trait both. They don't appear to suffer from it but they seem not to be able to justify their existence in life. They react differently to the thought of not having a place in life, or not deserving anything, but that thought haunts them more then any hunter at their tail.

In life they learned they can trust none and everyone will betray you. Look out for yourself and don't mind the rest. This is what you question in them/for them. Something they both seemed to have sought and which they are thankful for, even if tentative and anxious at first.

I have not played a lot with Isabella, but for Fenris, in my story he had to come to terms with him not being able to be the man he wants to be, his ideal of men is not reachable for him, he is full of hatred, he has no future, ha breaks his words, he has no family, he is tainted by magic (he sees his powers as sort of magic too). He is not very good with deciding for himself, due to lack of practice as well. Also, if he falls for the Demon in the Fade, he comments realising, that he must make a lots of thoughts on this, since it is way too easy to fall for demons, even for non mages.

He is contemplative, he is unhappy, he is reflective, he is however multi layered (yay, for Shrek's onions). But he responds to how you shape him with your own reactions too.

[Addai]

You obviously haven't delved very deepy into either character, so why not just say that they don't appeal to you rather than call them two-dimensional? I don't particularly care for Isabela, but her devil-may-care attitude at least adds some lightness and fun, and even without having gone through her romance or full rivalry/ friendship, I can see other aspects to her besides sex. She freed the slaves so she has a soft side. She's depressed about losing her boat and thus her sense of importance. She mourns her crew and felt responsible for their deaths. See, I'm not even trying and I picked up on that in 1 1/2 playthroughs. So... go back to the drawing board or stop complaining.

[TheJediSaint]

Not to derail the topic, but a good benchmark for character depth in a Bioware game is HK-47, he is by far the simplest major character in any title Bioware has published. His motivations are simply "Do what master says or kill meatbags, preferably both." Now I'm not badmouthing him or anything, HK was one of the best things about KOTOR. In fact he is proof that characters don't need to be complex to be cool. But compare a truly 2D character like HK to either Isabella or Fenris, and you will quickly see that they have much more depth than everyone's favorite killer droid.

[Arppis]

RevanchistStenn wrote...

Arppis wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

The writers used a classic characterization trick.

Which did't work, because things like Isabela bein bugged if gone friendly path, and both Isabela and Fenris being so shallow and, to some people, repulsive, that noone even bothered to try and dig deeper into their personalities (also, actor who played Fenris sometimes caused "I AM ACTING" shouts from my mouth).
Take Sten for example - the situations he was in, his voice, character, everything just pulled you to him and gave a feeling of need to solve his quest just to find out why he did what he did.

With his "I have no feelings" voice? Please.

I agree with DTDN, at least in terms of Fenris (especially the acting.) Sten didn't speak with no feelings. I felt from the beginning he as a character was deliberately trying to be impenetrable to the Warden because he didn't want to share. He was ashamed, without his sword and this without his place in the world. His ability to simultaneously look down and still feel inadequate was, I thought, very expertly pulled off.

It's much harder to play a character like Fenris, it requires more.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

but if you take the time to peel away the layers

They should encourage me to do that somehow. And they're.. not that tasty enough inside.

I could also instantly think of two issues that bothered me with Fenris, no matter how complex his story is - I *knew* he had a sister, that be one. Just from hearing his crying about being a slave, I knew he had a sister that would need to be saved. How trite is his character for me to guess that from the beginning of the game?
Revenge as bitter and empty thing is the second. Perhaps, some people taking revenge on a person who made great evil to them instantly taking martyr on themselves exist. But, it does't really work that way in life. Doing justice to person like that would feel good. People want their nemesises to suffer. However, in common media, everyone who takes revenge on someone never feels good and instantly goes "..ahh twas pointless" way of thinking. So yes, storywise, Fenris is complex, but that's just cliches mixed in complex story.

[Lianaar]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote... However, in common media, everyone who takes revenge on someone never feels good and instantly goes "..ahh twas pointless" way of thinking. So yes, storywise, Fenris is complex, but that's just cliches mixed in complex story.

On a personal note I disagree with this. I didn't often take revenge for things, and after the first moment of: hell, that felt good, there was emptiness and shame. Revenge belittled me and made me just the person I wanted to take revenge on. So wether revenge is empty or not, feels good or not, that is not universal truth, it depends on the person doing the revenge.

Modifié par Lianaar, 24 mars 2011 - 08:23 .

[RevanchistStenn]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

but if you take the time to peel away the layers

They should encourage me to do that somehow. And they're.. not that tasty enough inside.

I could also instantly think of two issues that bothered me with Fenris, no matter how complex his story is - I *knew* he had a sister, that be one. Just from hearing his crying about being a slave, I knew he had a sister that would need to be saved. How trite is his character for me to guess that from the beginning of the game?
Revenge as bitter and empty thing is the second. Perhaps, some people taking revenge on a person who made great evil to them instantly taking martyr on themselves exist. But, it does't really work that way in life. Doing justice to person like that would feel good. People want their nemesises to suffer. However, in common media, everyone who takes revenge on someone never feels good and instantly goes "..ahh twas pointless" way of thinking. So yes, storywise, Fenris is complex, but that's just cliches mixed in complex story.

This. Being predictable is unfortunate but not a deal breaker. But you have to give me more. I also thought Fenris' utter lack of enjoyment for fulfilling his revenge to be more bound that kind of familiar story structure than his actual character.

[RevanchistStenn]

Lianaar wrote...

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote... However, in common media, everyone who takes revenge on someone never feels good and instantly goes "..ahh twas pointless" way of thinking. So yes, storywise, Fenris is complex, but that's just cliches mixed in complex story.

On a personal note I disagree with this. I didn't often take revenge for things, and after the first moment of: hell, that felt good, there was emptiness and shame. Revenge belittled me and made me just the person I wanted to take revenge on. So wether revenge is empty or not, feels good or not, that is not universal truth, it depends on the person doing the revenge.

His point is in fiction, you very rarely see anyone get to enjoy their revenge. It's always a lesson in morality, a "what did we learn about negativity?" The truth is, there are an equal amount of people who would revel in it as would feel ashamed. We sort them in fiction as good guys and bad guys. Because Fenris is a "good guy", he has to feel bad. Bioware characters rarely play out this way so he stands out. At least in my opinion.

[cglasgow]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I could also instantly think of two issues that bothered me with Fenris, no matter how complex his story is - I *knew* he had a sister, that be one. Just from hearing his crying about being a slave, I knew he had a sister that would need to be saved. How trite is his character for me to guess that from the beginning of the game?

Well, seeing as you guessed entirely wrong, not very!

Seriously.  Did you actually reach the sidequest with his sister?  You ain't saving her from anything.  Except maybe saving her from being murdered on the spot by Fenris himself.

[TheJediSaint]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

but if you take the time to peel away the layers

They should encourage me to do that somehow. And they're.. not that tasty enough inside.

I could also instantly think of two issues that bothered me with Fenris, no matter how complex his story is - I *knew* he had a sister, that be one. Just from hearing his crying about being a slave, I knew he had a sister that would need to be saved. How trite is his character for me to guess that from the beginning of the game?
Revenge as bitter and empty thing is the second. Perhaps, some people taking revenge on a person who made great evil to them instantly taking martyr on themselves exist. But, it does't really work that way in life. Doing justice to person like that would feel good. People want their nemesises to suffer. However, in common media, everyone who takes revenge on someone never feels good and instantly goes "..ahh twas pointless" way of thinking. So yes, storywise, Fenris is complex, but that's just cliches mixed in complex story.

Well Fenris's quest was not to save his sister, but to meet her.  Then she betrays him, and then he kills her unless Hawke stops him, so the whole save the sister thing your talking about does not really exist.  His sister did reveal that he gained his marks willingly to earn freedom for his sister and mother, but that isn't trite, that's noble. Yes, Fenris is archetypal, but so are all Bioware characters.  In fact, all interesting characters in all media tend to fall within archetypes.  

Modifié par TheJediSaint, 24 mars 2011 - 08:29 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Did you actually reach the sidequest with his sister?

Yes I did, and Fenris went with me to help 'em mages with 100 friendship points.
I would't post my opinion on the matter if I did't.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 24 mars 2011 - 08:31 .

[Lianaar]

RevanchistStenn wrote...
His point is in fiction, you very rarely see anyone get to enjoy their revenge. It's always a lesson in morality, a "what did we learn about negativity?" The truth is, there are an equal amount of people who would revel in it as would feel ashamed. We sort them in fiction as good guys and bad guys. Because Fenris is a "good guy", he has to feel bad. Bioware characters rarely play out this way so he stands out. At least in my opinion.

Ah, I understand. Hrm. But then he also says that we should make people not react logically and humanly in order to make them unique and unpredictable? If it suits the character, then I am not sure it is a problem, that it fits something other themes already used. I would be more troubled if they changed it only because others already used that theme.

Predictable to a level is good and necessary in character generation. I would likely not enjoy a chaotic character that always reacts in an unpredictable, and thus allogical appearing manner. I want to know that if I pay attention to a character, it'll be consistent and react in a way that I presume the character to behave in. That is why eg Orsino in certain play throughs appears to be just odd, because we don't really see his motivations and thus he has a random outburst of illogical reaction.

If I have to find fault in how Fenris is made (not in the character, as I want every characters to have some flaws), it is how he enjoyed killing Hadriana more then he enjoyed killing Denerius. Probably because he related to them differently, though this might be seen as a dischord of personality, if I must find one.

Generally I find that Mr Gaider is rather good in making characters that have acknowledgeable motivations and keep to those. Due to this I find them well rounded, even if I can not relate to all of them, or don't understand all of them. I don't have a feeling with the characters, that a certain reaction was just atypical, off character. You can show every char you found as the good guy or evil guy, depending what personality you are. They are thus human (antropomorph at least).

[Noatz]

People who barely interact with characters and then accuse them of being two dimensional should bear in mind that by that logic everyone alive that they don't know is two dimensional.

Fenris has a funny side to him as well that is brought out by him being in a party wioth Varric/Isabela mostly.

[Lianaar]

Oh right, even his sister can be seen as the evil traitor or the poor victim, that had to pay a price for Fenris' unthoughtful actions. Trying to make a life better for herself by giving up a brother that left her alone to struggle in a world, where the poor and free are even treated worse then slaves that have assets? There can be a fully valid opinion to approve of her actions. Just like there can be a fully valid view on her being evil and disloyal.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

But then he also says that we should make people not react logically and humanly in order to make them unique and unpredictable?

I am saying that I was not surprised at any moment of Fenris story. Like, at all. I know Alistair surprised me with his completely medieval, ruthless sense of justice when it came to sparing or not Loghain's life.