89 réponses à ce sujet

[Sesshomaru47]

nicodeemus327 wrote...

I can't speak for Fenris since I never really used him much. However, did you listen to Isabela's story? There's a huge layer of complexity to why she likes boats and sex so much. She's a very flawed character and I love it.

Same with Fenris. There is a reason why he's broody and hates mages (with good reason). Though to say he hates all mages is wrong, if Hawke is a mage he likes her/him. I don't know how he'd react to blood magic.

But OP the other 2 LI characters aren't much better. Merril is obsessive and crazy and Anders is annoying, obsessive, crazy, harpy and a hypocrite. Wow he may be the most complex of all.

[RevanchistStenn]

TheJediSaint wrote...
Well Fenris's quest was not to save his sister, but to meet her.  Then she betrays him, and then he kills her unless Hawke stops him, so the whole save the sister thing your talking about does not really exist.  His sister did reveal that he gained his marks willingly to earn freedom for his sister and mother, but that isn't trite, that's noble. Yes, Fenris is archetypal, but so are all Bioware characters.  In fact, all interesting characters in all media tend to fall within archetypes.  

You're absolutely right about that. It's how each character stretches outside of his archetype that makes him unique. Fenris' problem is he doesn't do a lot of reaching. He has moments, whereas characters have entire arcs. And he has the disadvantage of not being charming like Varric or emotionally clumsy in an adorable way like Aveline. Some of Bioware's greatest characters are major archetypes with soul. Canderous, HK-47, Tali, Sten, Alistair, Ashley, these are all characters I love that on their basest level were cut from a broad cloth. When given the chance, they say things that amuse you, surprise you, and endear you to them. When given the same opportunity, Fenris talks about his blood-stained soul. It's just a little too myspace for me.

[nicodeemus327]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

But then he also says that we should make people not react logically and humanly in order to make them unique and unpredictable?

I am saying that I was not surprised at any moment of Fenris story. Like, at all. I know Alistair surprised me with his completely medieval, ruthless sense of justice when it came to sparing or not Loghain's life.

I thought that was pretty predictable about Allistar after the conversations we had about the Grey Wardens. He really cared for his order. I didn't think he would ever let logain off the hook. Some people pick up on different stuff. I missed a lot of the stuff concerning Fenris and picked up a lot of it concerning Isabela. I ended up killing Fenris because I didn't gain his friendship. He was pretty 2D in my playthrough. However, a different poster talks about a lot of depth I missed.

Modifié par nicodeemus327, 24 mars 2011 - 08:43 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I thought that was pretty predictable about Allistar after the conversations we had about the Grey Wardens.

It was predictable on personal, character level. But on common storytelling one, where "murder is never justice", "everyone must have a chance", "he should redeem his sins", Alistair actually clashed with those "paragon", "moral of the story" things, rolling other them like asphalt paver.
Another example - Wynne betraying player because he is maleficarum. Weren't inclided in a game, sadly, thus a large part of her stubborn old lady who-knows-everything-and-does-everything-no-matter-what-you-think character have been missed by players.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 24 mars 2011 - 08:49 .

[Lianaar]

For me it was predictable, because he basically took a vow to kill Loghain after Ostagar. And he was one to keep his vows. I could not have imagine him allowing the man responsible for Duncan's death live. That would have been awkward.

[Zan Mura]

 Isabela and Fenris both have good reasons for being who they are. Especially with their excellent VO and well written lines, I can't for the life of me agree with the OP. But some people are prone to just not like a character or share their morals, and then proceed to blame that on poor writing. Not everyone needs to be a dramatic split personality with so much colour in their lives you will never understand who the hell they are supposed to be.

[Shockwave Pulsar]

They both have reasons for being the way they are (Fenris' hate & Isabela's 'I'm so selfish and don't let anyone close'-facade), the problem is that they won't tell you unless you romance them.

[Gabey5]

she is a PIRATE
sex violence and drinking is her life
he was ENSLAVED BY MAGISTERS
- hate for tevinter
-hate for magic
- and brooding is his life.

put yourslef in their shoes,

[christrek1982]

DanteCousland wrote...

Seriously weren't Isabela and Fenris the most 2 dimensional characters. They literally have no development, I mean okayt granted Isabela returns with the tome of koslun if she romances you but she is still exactly the same otherwise and that doesnt stop her making stupid decisions later.
With Fenris I doubt its worth discussion, throughtout the entire game no matter what there are only two aspects to him hating the Magisters and brooding.
Gaaaah

I thaught the same thing till he told me about the fog worrors i think the all have hiden depths you just need to take the time to find them

[Everwarden]

The Angry One wrote...

You hate brooding, and yet you use Dante as a screen name.
Duuur.

...it's a name. Dante is a common name in Italy. It means nothing. 

[Volourn]

"Seriously weren't Isabela and Fenris the most 2 dimensional characters."

No. That was Sten, Oghren, and the Old mage Woman from DA1.

R00fles!

Isabella is anything but one dimensional. If she was truly one dimensional she wouldn't ahves crew up her job over a bunch of slaves. If she was one dimensional she wouldn't have shown fear of the guy she betrayed (yet showed no fair of the quanari). If she was one dimensional she would ahve just gutted the pirate scum sinetad of letting him go 9and she gets angry if you slit his throat). If she was one dimensional she enver would have bothered returning at all. if she was one dimensional she would ahve simply had sex with the loser when you asked her too. If she was one dimensional she would act like a big sister to Merrill 9she even gives back the trinket she wins from merrill in their gambling game). She develops a great deal during the game while still staying true to herself.

As for fenris.. I think I proved my point with Isballe. In other words, i totallyd estroyed your one dimensioanl argument.

[thesuperdarkone]

Ah, if it isn't my favorite spoilerific troll. On topic, I didn't find Isabella or Fenris to be 2 dimensional as you claim to be. I maxed out Fenris' rivalry and max Isabella friendship and it was kind of touching and cool to see Isabella returning with the tome and fighting the Arishok for her (note I romanced Merrill). I can understand Fenris and know why he behaves how he does. Doesn't mean I didn't have my Hawke agreed with it and maxed his Rivalry. Also, Fenris with Cleave+Scythe/Whirlwind= lots of dead enemies.

[Sherbet Lemon]

Because I'm lazy and lame, I'll just repost what I wrote earlier today on the Fenris thread as to my opinion on why he is the way he is.

I think I tried to make this argument before, but probably made it poorly
or incoherently.  Hey, I should get points for persistence! 

Memory is integral to the formation of identity.  Experience is a composite of
memory, and the eventual understanding or reflection that comes from
returning to that memory. Conversely, it is in this network of memories
and experiences that our worldview takes shape. There is a reason why
nostalgia colors everything with emotion.  Our thoughts, actions, and
relationships are tied together by these experiences and memory is what
allows us to make the connections.

Fenris’s trouble comes from more than just loosing memory and thusly only having the cruelty of
slavery being his only memory.  Fenris’s trouble is derived from the
existing person that was pre-memory loss being irreconcilable to the
person that he is post-memory loss.   The person that Fenris was before
then exists in a existence that is stagnant and in stasis just out of
grasp.  It is this person that possesses a strong tie to family and is
the reason why he has that need to put down roots.

His quest “Alone”  seems to hint at this subtlely and allude to this stagnant
duality.  The person that Varania describes (Leto) seems noble, and
self-sacrificing in that he gave up his identity to free his mother and
sister from slavery.  This is why I think the bitterness, the hate for
magic that he clings to  is so debilitating.  Leto and Fenris are not
the same people and yet they are at the same time  (which is why I think
Fenris’s reaction to Ander’s possession is so very ironic). Varania’s
revelation sickens him to think that he asked for the very things he
feels cursed him. In that instance, he finally comes come to grips with
both personas in particular, the one does possess memories of pleasant
things like family, love and friendship and the other persona who has
inexperienced intolerable cruelty and degradation.  This is why he
lashes out at Hawke about being alone and if Hawke is in love with him,
he/she can try try to help in that reconcillation by reminding him that
he is not.  I imagined that in order for him to cope with those lyrium
marking he had to focus the onus of his bitterness on external forces
(i.e slavery, magic and Danarius).  This is why I will ALWAYS let
Varania live because this is something that NEEDS to happen for Fenris. 
My hope is that he will evetually achieve parity with both personas.

Sorry for the length, but I wanted to stick up a little for Fen.

I have some thoughts on Isabela but I'll save those for next time.  Only one boring wall of text per day is my rule.

EDIT: Weird formatting error...I dunno.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 25 mars 2011 - 01:24 .

[Twistedmask]

I wouldn't call it 2-d characters so much as a limited scope of interaction. There is depth to the characters, and if you watch carefully you'll see it. (Fenris is a little hard to argue for due to memory loss but I love the way he interacts. He can be very defeatist at times when dealing with a rival Hawke, its interesting.) It would have been nicer to see different sorts of interaction and personality traits, but given the limited room and time, the characters were interesting. Rather than go list example of depth, I'll just go ahead and say that there is still plenty of room to explore with both Isabela and Fenris.

[ShrinkingFish]

DanteCousland wrote...

Seriously weren't Isabela and Fenris the most 2 dimensional characters. They literally have no development, I mean okayt granted Isabela returns with the tome of koslun if she romances you but she is still exactly the same otherwise and that doesnt stop her making stupid decisions later.
With Fenris I doubt its worth discussion, throughtout the entire game no matter what there are only two aspects to him hating the Magisters and brooding.
Gaaaah

I disagree and felt both characters were remarkably well rounded and especially well written. See so there.