I think the main issue is that sometimes you feel trapped because there's no 'nice' way to deal with a person without rejecting their advances, which means a potential friend/rivalry hit you don't want.
But again, he complained about Zevran's mere presence in the game, and with Fenris, in order to get him to come on to you, you have to flirt with him at least once (same with Merrill). Anders and Isabela DO flirt -- you can shut them down or try to avoid the whole thing, but I believe if you don't reject them, they may flirt one more time.
Also, the elven prostittue, it would be weird if a prostitute did NOT come onto you, either gender. There's no approval loss for not flirting with him (though it's funny getting with him with a sibling in your party).
if he's feeling uncomfortable, that's one thing, but to exaggerate it to make a point invalidates what he's saying.
I think the main issue is that sometimes you feel trapped because there's no 'nice' way to deal with a person without rejecting their advances, which means a potential friend/rivalry hit you don't want.
I see your point there, but speaking from real life experience, that is sometimes how certain people are. By which I mean, some people will take a "nice" comment to mean romantic interest, and the only way to make your point clear to them is to be firm/rude, and possibly receive those real life rivalry points. I have no idea if that's what the writers intended there, and have heard that same complaint coming from my brother (at least, at a part with Anders). I just thought it might be worth noting.
Maybe its me, but I find nothing wrong in either sex finding me attractive enough to flirt with. So a girl wants my cherry? I am sexy to both genders. I find that strangely empowering.
I think the main issue is that sometimes you feel trapped because there's no 'nice' way to deal with a person without rejecting their advances, which means a potential friend/rivalry hit you don't want.
That's pretty similar to real life, too. Personally, I haven't found a situation where I was trapped, but maybe because I never started a flirt path with the characters I didn't want. Some people take the flirt path because it gets their relationship points up fast, but then they have to deal with the fallout later - lol.
I don't remember Isabela ever forcing Hawke into a flirt or rival situation, and I've been over her entire romance multiple times (as you may have guessed). I know there were certainly situations with Anders where it was flirt, flirt or heartbreak. I found that rather annoying.
But you're complaining about characters hitting on you who don't unless you flirt first! Zevran won't hit on you if you don't flirt nor will Fenris. Nor will Merrill. So... you've got Anders and the elven prostitute (who IS a prostitute so it's his living).
Edit: When you complain about things that don't happen, it's a bit frustrating and it does sound like bigotry. Ok, so both Fenris and Zevran WILL respond to YOUR flirting. Why do you feel the need to press the "flirt" icon to begin with? Or did you just read somewhere that they do, so decided to complain anyway?
Ah well.
Actually my go-to response probably 80 - 90% of the game was the peace response. I flirted with Merrill and Isabella and persued a relationship with Isabella. I had to turn Fernis down and I want to say I had to turn Anders down twice.
Fenris does not make a move on you unless you flirt. So at least once you hit that icon if you actually had a heartbreak icon come up with him.
Edit: And since Zevran didn't hit on you, what exactly is the issue with him being in the game? Is he some sort of offensive symbol to you? I always romance Zevran on a female warden, and my only issue with him being there is the wrong lines were triggering.
In my play-through Fenris did, I guess it's possible I accidentally hit a heart at some point in the game, but not that I recall. The comment is I think it would serve the game and story better if there were less options. Might make things mean more or encourage one to play through the game again even more if some options were only available based on class. Less can be more... and that's just my opinion. I actually really liked Aveline's side quest and helping her connect with her husband. I'd love to see more of that in the characters you don't have relationships with. Another bonus (in my opinion) to lowering the number of available relationships. Maybe help companions eventually end up with other companions. I think that could add depth to the social dynamics of the party.
@Kawamura
I think you misunderstand. I was/am perfectly fine with the bi options. I just think it was more interesting to have my advances rejected because the npc was not into what I was proposing.
It would have been far more satisfying to flirt with Anders as a male or Aveline as a female only to have them become uncomfortable and similar scenarios with different characters.
I promise you, you hit a heart. Accidentally I can buy I guess. He's really designed NOT to hit on Hawke unless Hawke flirts first.
Anyway, still, I don't get your point about Zevran being in the game somehow adding to the problem. Why bring him up? He doesn't flirt unless you flirt first. I guess if you're with Isabela, that can be awkward. But that's Isabela, not Zevran. If you don't have her with you, he doesn't flirt on his own.
But you're complaining about characters hitting on you who don't unless you flirt first! Zevran won't hit on you if you don't flirt nor will Fenris. Nor will Merrill. So... you've got Anders and the elven prostitute (who IS a prostitute so it's his living).
Edit: When you complain about things that don't happen, it's a bit frustrating and it does sound like bigotry. Ok, so both Fenris and Zevran WILL respond to YOUR flirting. Why do you feel the need to press the "flirt" icon to begin with? Or did you just read somewhere that they do, so decided to complain anyway?
Ah well.
Actually my go-to response probably 80 - 90% of the game was the peace response. I flirted with Merrill and Isabella and persued a relationship with Isabella. I had to turn Fernis down and I want to say I had to turn Anders down twice.
Fenris does not make a move on you unless you flirt. So at least once you hit that icon if you actually had a heartbreak icon come up with him.
Edit: And since Zevran didn't hit on you, what exactly is the issue with him being in the game? Is he some sort of offensive symbol to you? I always romance Zevran on a female warden, and my only issue with him being there is the wrong lines were triggering.
In my play-through Fenris did, I guess it's possible I accidentally hit a heart at some point in the game, but not that I recall. The comment is I think it would serve the game and story better if there were less options. Might make things mean more or encourage one to play through the game again even more if some options were only available based on class. Less can be more... and that's just my opinion. I actually really liked Aveline's side quest and helping her connect with her husband. I'd love to see more of that in the characters you don't have relationships with. Another bonus (in my opinion) to lowering the number of available relationships. Maybe help companions eventually end up with other companions. I think that could add depth to the social dynamics of the party.
I'm not trying to be a downer but the vast majority of the BioWare audience disagrees with you in that there's almost always a demand to make multiple love-interests available to the PC.
I promise you, you hit a heart. Accidentally I can buy I guess. He's really designed NOT to hit on Hawke unless Hawke flirts first.
Anyway, still, I don't get your point about Zevran being in the game somehow adding to the problem. Why bring him up? He doesn't flirt unless you flirt first. I guess if you're with Isabela, that can be awkward. But that's Isabela, not Zevran. If you don't have her with you, he doesn't flirt on his own.
I didn't have Isabela in my party, but the conversation isn't too different. I mentioned Zevran because It was one more interaction that seemed overally sexually charged. But I get that's his character, and Isabela's character to. If anything he's probably the male version of Isabela.
Fenris' romance is actually difficult to maintain, I have to replay some part of the game to get him interested. He doesn't hit on you unless you flirt with him.
Maybe you're too sensitive about things, for me, a lot of lines is just NPCs being nice or being a smart ass. One of Mirrell's banter mentioned, she like Hawke, she think Hawke is nice. I bet you probably consider this Mirrell hitting on you. But when I heard it, I just thought Mirrell is cute, and she enjoys my company as a friend. A friend can be nice to you, or like to have you around, it doesn't means every time they say something nice, they want to sleep with you.
And.... seriously you're the only person I've heard so far, who actually asking "less options". I can't understand how "less options" will make game more interesting.
No, I didn't get the feeling companions were over-sexualized. I think Isabela hit on my female Hawke once when she tells you about her room in the "Hanged Man" and that's about it. 'Isabella’s sexual obsessions', as you put it, are not directed towards Hawke. She enjoys sex with almost everyone .
I’m not suggesting that straight male players get more choices than any other group, but I do think maybe toning down the sexuality and the options for all might be a good thing. Or even limit your choices by what you choose to be as in, Merrill is into you because you’re a mage, but Fenris wouldn’t go near you romantically, but he will be your friend. Or Isabella is into you because you’re a rogue but Aveline wouldn’t go near you romantically because of this. I’d love to see your class give you different dialog options between your companions and other NPC’s, but I digress. Sometimes less is more, that’s all I’m saying.
To limit the options here would turn your companions into shallow people. You don't choose the people you like because of their "careers", but because you are attracted to them or because they have great personality. Or, if you are lucky, both .
Personally, I think it's great that the companions are available for both, male and female Hawkes. Weren't there a lot of players who wanted to romance Alistair in Origins as a male warden? Now Bioware was kind enough to give everybody an option that one can romance whoever is prefered.
That being said, I agree with ejoslin and think you might have accidently hit the "heart"-Icon and started a flirt here and there yourself.
ejoslin wrote...
I will add... Fenris doesn't flirt unless you flirt first. Same with Zevran. If you pick those icons, that's flirting. Anders is the only one I believe who will flirt first.
I might be mistaken here, but the way I remember it, Anders never initiated any flirting. In my playthrough I was the one who started to flirt with him, and he actually turned me down. He said something along the lines that he would break my heart and that a relationship wouldn't work. He never flirted with my female Hawke, because he was constantly worried to hurt her.
There are two problems with shutting Anders down: 1) it always seems to be an approval hit and 2) there's no line that says "I'm sorry Anders, but I don't do threesomes."
I promise you, you hit a heart. Accidentally I can buy I guess. He's really designed NOT to hit on Hawke unless Hawke flirts first.
Anyway, still, I don't get your point about Zevran being in the game somehow adding to the problem. Why bring him up? He doesn't flirt unless you flirt first. I guess if you're with Isabela, that can be awkward. But that's Isabela, not Zevran. If you don't have her with you, he doesn't flirt on his own.
I didn't have Isabela in my party, but the conversation isn't too different. I mentioned Zevran because It was one more interaction that seemed overally sexually charged. But I get that's his character, and Isabela's character to. If anything he's probably the male version of Isabela.
Try not flirting with him. He doesn't hit on your Hawke. Sex doesn't come up at ALL. So with Zevran, either you flirted, or, well, you flirted if you get him propositioning you. Isabela hits on him, mind you, and he takes her up on it (though he's not supposed to if the warden was romanced, but that's another thread).
There are two problems with shutting Anders down: 1) it always seems to be an approval hit and 2) there's no line that says "I'm sorry Anders, but I don't do threesomes."
There's a couple of things wrong with that. First it's "rivalry points", not an "approval hit " Secondly, getting rivalry points is NOT a penalty. Third, you still get the same rivalry points if your Femhawke turns Anders down. Nobody is forcing anything on anybody here.
I didn't have Isabela in my party, but the conversation isn't too different. I mentioned Zevran because It was one more interaction that seemed overally sexually charged. But I get that's his character, and Isabela's character to. If anything he's probably the male version of Isabela.
I think the issue some of us are having is where you say you feel "pushed" by Zevran's conversations. He makes three mildly bawdy comments, one in response to you saying you're going to tie him up and gag him, where he says, "Oh, is that a promise?" and the second where he says, "You can either tie me up, gag me, and then manhandle me... or you can take me to Nuncio. Which will it be, I wonder?" and the third, when you tell him he's a very compliant fugitive and he'll say, "Yes, and very bendy." - which, by the by, he follows up with a bit of seriousness, saying he thinks Hawke is a bigger threat than the Crows and would rather fight them then you - which should clue you in to the tongue in cheek nature of his entire conversation. Love or hate Zevran's accent, Jon Curry does an excellent job in conveying emotion without words. The sly chuckles, the laugh, the smile in the voice or the resignedness if you choose to turn him in - all wonderfully conveyed.
He's trying to be charming and get out of fighting EITHER group. You don't find him charming enough to let him go, that's fine. Or, you're convinced because Nuncio lied to you, and you let him go - either option has consequences. But, he doesn't offer sex unless you've flirted with him.
Isabela and Zevran's dialogue is completely independant of anything the player does and considering the two do have a history (and have slept together in the past and might have done it again in Origins, depending on your choices), them discussing sex (just like they did in Origins) shouldn't come as a surprise.
Zevran even talks about sex far less in DA:O than Isabela does in DA2. He talks about it three times with Alistair (all romance dependant), four with Morrigan (three of which are romance dependant), twice with Oghren (all romance dependant), once with Sten, four with Leliana (one of which has him backing away from something sexual which should indicate previous conversations weren't serious), twice with Shale (one romance dependant). His conversations with Wynne about crying on her bosom are obviously meant to needle her.
I'm up to eleven with Isabela and that's just from Anders, Aveline and Bethany, and I don't think any of those are romance dependant... meaning you get them regardless. But people see what they want to see when it comes to Zevran, so I'm not sure why I'm ever surprised by these sorts of threads anymore.
There are two problems with shutting Anders down: 1) it always seems to be an approval hit and 2) there's no line that says "I'm sorry Anders, but I don't do threesomes."
There's a couple of things wrong with that. First it's "rivalry points", not an "approval hit " Secondly, getting rivalry points is NOT a penalty. Third, you still get the same rivalry points if your Femhawke turns Anders down. Nobody is forcing anything on anybody here.
See I think that's a part of the problem here too...misconceptions about the system. It's a deviation from what was established in DA:O and other BioWare games so people are sort of trained to go for "Friendship" points.
With the implementation of the new Friendship/Rivalry system it's not meant to convey an arbitrary "Good vs Bad" response. Rivalmances are possible for example.
Regarding Fenris, there is a line that might be construed as flirting, depending on how you define "flirt". It might also be just a friendly compliment.
It's the first time you talk to him after his quest, and he says (paraphrased): "I never hired help before, but if I had known I'd end up getting help from such a ... remarkable person, I might have done so sooner."
Flirting? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Definitely not overt in my book, anyway. And you can just click past it, without using the heart option. You don't even have to be unfriendly, just choose one of the options that does not include flirting, because there was such an option that was perfectly friendly.
There are two problems with shutting Anders down: 1) it always seems to be an approval hit and 2) there's no line that says "I'm sorry Anders, but I don't do threesomes."
There's a couple of things wrong with that. First it's "rivalry points", not an "approval hit " Secondly, getting rivalry points is NOT a penalty. Third, you still get the same rivalry points if your Femhawke turns Anders down. Nobody is forcing anything on anybody here.
For a lot of people, rivalry points = approval hit, which certainly isn't the case at all. Rivalry and Friendship both have disadvantages and advantages. I think one should understand that you don't always have to befriend someone. Sometimes, arguing with them and discouraging them from a slippery slope path to self-destruction is the best way.
As a woman, who played a woman on my first game and romanced Anders...Anders seriously came on strong. I usually always play flirtatious characters but as soon as I flirted with him, he was like "I'll break your heart!". Not to mention he comes on to you when you are just having a conversation with him. And if you are going for full friendship, you get punished if you turn him down.
Luckily, it's really only the first time you talk to him in "Talk to Anders". But I was really put off and a little hesitant to go back a talk to him another time, because it really freaked me out. I can tell why people would be put off by how strongly he comes on to you at first, because I felt the same.
I didn't think anyone else came on as strongly without it being in their characterization. Isabela did, but she's a slattern (lol) so it's expected of her. Not to mention that it is mostly used as flirtation rather than "I want to be with you" talk. I went through an entire game without Merrill flirting with me. And Fenris only ever seemed to respond to my flirts or pay me compliments, but the compliments didn't feel sexual.
True, the male prostitute Jethann hits on you but he is a prostitute...so yeah. Not to mention a lot of the street prostitutes do too. And I don't remember seeing any male street prostitutes.
Regarding Fenris, there is a line that might be construed as flirting, depending on how you define "flirt". It might also be just a friendly compliment.
It's the first time you talk to him after his quest, and he says (paraphrased): "I never hired help before, but if I had known I'd end up getting help from such a ... remarkable person, I might have done so sooner."
Flirting? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Definitely not overt in my book, anyway. And you can just click past it, without using the heart option. You don't even have to be unfriendly, just choose one of the options that does not include flirting, because there was such an option that was perfectly friendly.
But the OP was claiming he had to "end it." Which means he had to have started it to begin with. That all the LIs are Hawke-sexual is a given, but I just don't see an issue with that comment. Especially since it is not romance related.
I also don't have an issue when your choices are "flirt" "flirt" and "no flirt." If someone comes onto you and you're not interested, is it really a bad thing to tell them no? And is the hit really that major? I honestly don't remember getting a hit from Anders, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I think Bioware made it very easy to know what lines are flirting and what aren't. That people still don't believe it (and I have seen threads where people argue that the is not necessarily a flirt) is a person problem, not a game-mechanic problem.
The only time that losing or gaining a rivalry or friendship can be a problem is if one of your companions is at their crisis point. The most clear one is Isabela. If you were going for the friend type and take a big rivalry hit she may leave your party for forever in act 2. Only things that really matter about about Friendship/Rivalry is if you want to romance them and if you want specific characters to be with you at the end of the game.
Or just cheat and use console commands for the pc version. If you are playing it on an xbox or ps3? Best keep careful to your decisions.
edited to add.
My first play through I was hit on in act 2 by anders and I did have to turn him down. But I'm sure some where in the past I hit a heart on accident thinking it was just a friendship button. Why it hasn't happened since. I've never completed a game with Anders as a relationship cause I just kill him every time anyway. Rather have the bible thumper in my group than that whining cry baby.
LOL I don't know how you got Anders to hit on you, because my femmeHawke had to relentlessly pursue him pretty much the entire game. I always picked the smartass/joking answers so maybe that's why...pfft. It was actually MERRILL in my second playthrough whom I had to shut down, I think I picked a heart option once in the first act and suddenly she was at my house and it was either sex or GTFO xD; I guess I didn't realize how careful one has to be when picking lines, now I'm wary of Fenris >__>
But Anders has never hit on me at all, LOL, sadface D:
I have a hard time thinking companions or in fact anybody in the game as being over-sexualized (other than Isabela), when every single outfit covers you up from your ankle to your neck. - _ -
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icon if you actually had a heartbreak icon come up with him.
