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Dragon Age 2 Lead Writer Blasts Homophobic Fan


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#1
snfonseka

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The romances in Dragon Age 2 are for everyone, says the games lead writer, not just for the straight, male gamer.
Read the full article in here.

What I think what BW has done is totally dumb. They should have introduced some characters as straight, some as bi and some as gay. It is more realistic than turning all the romance-companions into bi characters.  They should have approached this sexuality issue in more creative manner, where the sexuality is part of the characters' personality. For example, Merrill is straight and Isabela is bi.  Well..., BW you have done the character development in your past games in great manner, so don't try to dumb down the character development now.

Użytkownik snfonseka edytował ten post 24 marzec 2011 - 06:38


#2
John Epler

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Let me jump in now and give a general warning that, given the tone of the last few threads discussing this issue, this one is going to be monitored very, very carefully. Homophobia and throwing slurs against those who are of a different sexual orientation than you is not acceptable.

At the same time, let's try to avoid the insults from the other side of the fence. If someone is espousing an opinion you find particularly offensive, let a moderator know. Every PM I get, I'm notified via my e-mail inbox and I will see it almost right away.

Let's try to keep this civil and constructive. If it starts to get out of hand, it will be locked, and warnings/bans will be handed out.

#3
John Epler

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I will point out that expecting us to change how we make our games because certain optional aspects of them make people uncomfortable is likely destined for disappointment. Characters are written or designed based on what the writers feel is best for those characters, and that's not going to change.

And let's also keep in mind that 'rivalry' is not a punishment. I'd wager that the majority of people on this planet have either been disappointed or disappointed someone else because advances were rejected. The character in question will quickly get over it, and you can still have them as a friendship.

#4
John Epler

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A reminder, once again, that if you are unable to discuss this civilly, you will be asked to remove yourself from the thread.

This applies to both sides, of course. If you feel someone is being offensive, let a moderator know. Vigilante forum justice is not the way to handle things.

#5
John Epler

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tanerb123 wrote...

the only reason i am not happy with gay romance is that space could be used for extra straight romance. because i am not happy with isabella and merril


Not really applicable, actually.

Think of it this way - if a character is made available as a romance option for both genders, there are some things that have to change, but in general it is the same character.

Compare this to a brand new character. First, you have to introduce them in the story such that their presence makes sense. Then you have to develop that character, as well as their romance and personal arc. This isn't even taking into account the fact that each follower is at least a month and a half of very long days for cinematic design to work on, or the art assets required, or the character balancing with talents and such.

It is a vast difference in effort required. Heck, if romances were removed entirely (for both genders), you might save enough time to build one more companion. Who would also be non-romanceable.

#6
John Epler

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Galad22 wrote...

moilami wrote...

I have noticed it is acceptable in BW forums to attack heteros by calling them with names like "homophobic", which supposedly is something very insulting.

Heterosexualism is sexual orientation too.


If you noticed Epler didn't actually call any particular person homophobic. And those sort of people do exist.


In fact, my policy has always been 'be civil above all else'. If people are offended or upset by what someone else has posted, they are more than welcome to message a moderator and let them know, at which point the situation will be dealt with.

Certainly I have my biases, but I try to put them aside when I moderate. I'll give my two cents where I can, but I don't believe I've been any more or less forgiving of one side or the other. When people start throwing out insults, regardless of the motivation, they are warned and/or banned for 24 hours.

However, I am not omniscient, and the forums move at a brisk pace. So unless I'm told about a problem, I can't do anything about it.

#7
John Epler

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Let me add, of course - this thread is coming dangerously close to being locked. Tone down the rhetoric on both sides and make an attempt to discuss this civilly, or it will be locked.

#8
John Epler

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Let's keep the religion bashing out of this discussion, please. It serves no purpose.

#9
John Epler

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Once again, I feel it necessary to address the fact that I don't see the way we handle romances changing dramatically because of some people being uncomfortable with them. They are optional content, and it is rather easy to avoid them.

Is it a fair criticism to say that you did not feel that the romances offered were to your taste? Certainly. This is likely true of every game, and will remain true no matter what their orientation is. Some people just don't find anything to like in a particular personality type, and if they can't find someone that they do connect with, of course they'll feel a little shortchanged.

This is a vastly different argument from 'I feel uncomfortable that I was presented with same sex romance', however. The former is a matter of taste. The latter is a matter of believing that same sex romance must somehow be squirreled away, hidden from anyone who doesn't go to seek it. Some people are more forward than others - they initiate. I'm sure everyone here has gotten unwanted advances from one or both sexes before, regardless of their sexual preference.

If it's deemed appropriate for a particular character to attempt to initiate things, then they will intiiate things. This will undoubtedly make some people uncomfortable, and that's unfortunate, but this isn't an area that's likely to change for any reason other than 'it doesn't work mechanically/it doesn't make sense for the character'.

#10
John Epler

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Deadmac wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Once again, I feel it necessary to address the fact that I don't see the way we handle romances changing dramatically because of some people being uncomfortable with them. They are optional content, and it is rather easy to avoid them.

What is rather funny is... If people have a problem with these features, they also have the option to not buy the game.

What comes around goes around. Right?

Now, I call that optional content.


Yes, this is referred to as 'exercising your right as a consumer'. Something I always support - vote with your dollar, and don't buy things you don't enjoy.

I'm not sure how that's funny?

#11
John Epler

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Folks, a warning once again to cut out the insults and ad hominems. Some of you are very passionate about this issue, and that's understandable! However, let's try to stay civil. If you have a problem with how another poster has presented themselves, let a moderator know.

#12
John Epler

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Mad-Max90 wrote...

This thread should have been locked pages ago, not for the whole "great" debate but for the whole bashing of real religion. It has become very clear that if you bash the gay community bioware steps up but if you bash someone's set of beliefs and faith it's all okay. The church has made great strides the past decade to accommodate for others, so please stop bashing Christianity and any other religion.


Perhaps you missed my rather pointed warning a few pages ago to cut out the religion bashing.

It's okay! It's a rather fast-moving thread, so you could have quite easily have missed it.

#13
John Epler

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ReconTeam wrote...

Russalka wrote...
I really doubt Bioware was forced into anything.


My wording could have been better there. My point was that aspect of the gay community demands such content and has accuzed Bioware of countless offenses. Just look at the ME2 thread. They take Bioware's good will and then demand more.


To echo the statement David made, it's very easy to see it as 'demanding' when you are not a member of the particular group in question. Privilege is a real thing, and it's quite easy (and I say this as a member of the dominant privileged group) to see people requesting that they are represented equally as 'oh, they're -demanding- special treatment. -I- never demand special treatment.' And of course, that misses the fact that you don't have to demand special treatment because you are already the majority group.

I don't see a request that a particular group be represented fairly as anyone 'demanding' anything. Not every product is going to contain that sort of content, that's true, and sometimes that's due to the demands of the narrative or product in question, but that still shouldn't stop them from requesting a more equal representation in popular media. Because, really, they aren't represented in such, not nearly to the extent that other groups are.

It's not entitlement or demanding, it's merely a wish that the creators of such content acknowledge that they exist, and that there are more people playing their games than the prevailing demographic. I can go to any number of games out there and find a protagonist who I can easily identify with because they are of the same gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation as I am. Why shouldn't they be allowed to ask for that same opportunity without being accused of pushing anything on anyone?

Użytkownik JohnEpler edytował ten post 25 marzec 2011 - 12:18


#14
John Epler

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termokanden wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

Beets?
Strawberries?
Turnips?

Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.


Fact. Bears eat beets.

Użytkownik JohnEpler edytował ten post 25 marzec 2011 - 12:43


#15
John Epler

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ReconTeam wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Has it ever occurred to you that it's not pandering? That, maybe, the writers and other developers actually think that it's important to include s/s content?


It makes no sense from a business standpoint but I could buy that Gaider and co. might be that umm... crazy. Of course then you could argue why isn't it important for them to include content for *insert group here*.

However will we have to deal with similarly unlikely scenarios in all future Bioware games?


Not every decision is strictly a business decision. We are not managing a hedge fund here.

Deciding to be inclusive rather than exclusive could have positive business implications, of course, but I would be very careful to suggest that such a motivation is the only reasonable one.

#16
John Epler

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Bastal wrote...

The whole point of the argument relies on the central point that straight male gamers make up a overwhelming majority of players. As I said before, I estimate that the number is around 80% (this includes straight males gamers who plays a females). Now if my numbers are at all wrong (that in reality the split is 60-40-10 (male, female, gay), then consider this post to be null and void, I've wasted your time (No doubt some of you already feel that way). 

"And if there is any doubt why such an opinion might be met with hostility, it has to do with privilege. You can write it off as "political correctness" if you wish, but the truth is that privilege always lies with the majority. They're so used to being catered to that they see the lack of catering as an imbalance. They don't see anything wrong with having things set up to suit them, what's everyone's fuss all about? That's the way it should be, any everyone else should be used to not getting what they want."

The idea of privilege is ridiculous. The "privilege" always lies with the majority because if your goal is to make a game that will be liked by as many fans possible, then it makes sense to focus on that largest group. Why should one fan's enjoyment be more important than five others? It'd more accurate to call "privilege" the idea that some minority group gets special preference for political points. If you really want to be all-inclusive, then I don't see why homosexuals should get special preference while leaving other minority groups out.


Here's the thing. You and I (and many others), we belong to the same demographic - straight and male. You talk about how the 'privilege' always lies with the majority, and you are correct. That doesn't make it a good thing. We're used to having the vast majority of popular entertainment catered to us. Films, television shows, video games - if the percentage of these that feature either a female or a non-heterosexual (or heck, both) protagonist is above 25%, I'll eat my hat. We don't have to ask for inclusiveness because we've got it. It's better than it was ten or fifteen years ago, sure, but even then, we've still got the lion's share of protagonists that we can empathize with.

This is what privilege is about. We are so used to being on top, so used to having entertainment designed for us that when we see something that goes against that status quo we go 'hey! That's not fair - you can't just cater to a particular audience!' What we don't realize, of course, is that the majority of entertainment already caters to us. We're just so used to it being the reality that we don't see it as anything other than the natural order of things. But if you're not part of our demographic, it can be incredibly difficult to find a protagonist you can sympathize and connect to in the same way, which is why you see the desire for more options and more inclusivity.

This isn't a complaint about how I didn't get everything I wanted. This is a complaint about how this is the first BioWare game I've played that I did not enjoy. I've seen many complaints about weak characters and weak story. That is also my complaint and I believe it stems entirely from trying to be "all-inclusive". By trying to appeal to so broad of audience, you've left a game in which many people cannot connect. You'll win praises and 10/10's from gay activists and feminists for your great strides in promoting "equality" and eliminating "straight male privilege", but you'll have loss fans like me.



If your complaint is 'I wasn't able to connect to the characters and I feel that was a result of the definition of their sexuality', then that's one thing. But the tone of your post, the topic you chose and the fact that you are essentially saying 'straight male gamers need to be catered to' suggests otherwise. In the end, the writers will make the decisions they make, but I wouldn't hold your breath that we're going to suddenly and drastically overhaul how we handle sexuality because it makes some people uncomfortable. That sucks, and it's too bad you won't be able to enjoy our games anymore, but that's the decision we've made.

If your goal is not to make as many fans as possible happy but to enact some form of social crusade then please, market and advertise the game as such. If you believe there are a substantial number of players who would appreciate those features, then advertise it and create trailers for it, don't lead me to believe that this game was crafted for the straight male. If you truly believe that the straight male gamers are not important enough that more focus is not warranted, then I would like to see your marketing reflect that.


It's possible to do both. Many people are quite comfortable playing a game with same-sex romance options without themselves being of that particular sexual orientation. And we're never going to make everyone happy - if we could create a game that pleased every single person who played video games, I'd be typing this post from my third mansion in the Bahamas. But what we can do is allow as many people of different sexual orientations as we can to enjoy our games. What we can do is make sure that we're promoting a message of equality, that we believe everyone's entitled to live and love in the same way. And what we can do is recognize that even as we're making video games, what we choose to include and not include is in itself a social message, whether we intend for it to be or not.

As a side note, I'd like to say that I'm not at all surprised by all the pro-homosexuality comments and that I expected even more. 1% of a million is still 10000. No doubt you'd have a many of them trying to protect their "privilege" in Dragon Age 2.


Or, it could be that many people (both heterosexual and of other sexual orientation) truly believe that inclusivity is a better way to go than exclusivity. Suggesting that it's only the '1%' that is vociferously against your post is doing both yourself and everyone else a great disservice, as you seem to be suggesting that if you're part of the 'straight, male demographic' then you aren't going to be posting in support of equality. Which was another of the points that David was making - you don't speak for the entire demographic, and I'd wager that you don't even speak for the majority of the demographic. So let's call a spade a spade.

#17
John Epler

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Much as the majority of us probably have strong opinions on videogames as art, that's not on-topic, so let's nip that discussion in the bud.

#18
John Epler

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Russalka wrote...

This thread should have been locked a while ago.


Good point.

Locking, as we seem to have entered the circular discussion part of the thread. I believe everything that needs to be said -has- been said.