2875 réponses à ce sujet

[Perfect-Kenshin]

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

If we are to agree that free will exist, I can't say for sure. I don't think there'd ever be a case where one would wake up one morning and say "Hey, I've suddendly decided that I want to be homosexual." I think the desire would culminate over time and that the "choice" would be made subconsciously.

Okay, this you're going to have to explain a bit more. 

I think we're going to have to define a few things so we're not talking at cross-purposes. Sexual orientation, what is it? To me, it's who you're attracted to. Attraction is a physical allure based mostly in chemical processes. You don't have control over these so I'm inclined to say sexual orientation is not a choice.

If we're going about it by what I truly think, then first off, I don't believe there is even such a thing as sexual orientation. I think attraction should be the only word that is used as the idea we're discussing is way more complicated than just liking one gender over the other. Indeed, although one would consider me to be heterosexual, I'm not attracted to every woman. There are some women who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool and cannot maintain erection with under any condition. No offense to the ladies here who may weigh more than average, but I like women who are in shape. I also have a strong preference to women with red hair. If a woman is bald, that turns me off big time. There's also personality. Heavily neurotic chicks are a big no-no for me. Women who have a strong fiery personality are great. Now even with the descritpions I've given, even with all conditions met, there's still a chance that I'm not going to be attracted at all.

That being said, we go back to the subject of choice. And once again, my answer is  Free will ----> Choice.
~Choice ----> ~Free will. The conditions which you claim one has no control over are the same for all traits/behavior. I may understand why I'm attracted to women with red hair and fiery personalities (or at least have a partial understanding), but I didn't choose the conditions which led me to this attraction. How could I? I can't help what I was exposed to as a child nor who my parents were and genes I inherited.  If Free will exist though, we are to assume that trascends this understanding of causality which we heavily cling to on a day-to-day basis.

As other people have stated sexual behaviour is not sexual orientation. We have a choice on how we act upon our attractions, sure.

That was a poor choice of words on my part. Lets use the word "trait/characteristic." Even operating under the paradigm of choice which you operate under, can you choose traits/characteristics?

And, if it really was a choice based on environmental input, etc, then wouldn't it be more likely that a lot of homosexuals would turn out straight due to all the negativity towards us?

One would think so, but that's too simple. As you may note in the articles which have been listed, scientist theorize that it's something which occurs in the developmental phases of one's life and for whatever reason. I don't fully understand it myself, but can see how characteristics which the mainstream society doesn't look favorable upon can be inputted into any individual

[moilami]

Captain Jazz wrote...

moilami wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...

The slider gives new possibilities to develop scenes and NPCs exactly like you said.

A dev can make an NPC who is gay and who harasses hetero player characters but does not harass gay characters who reject her. That was just one example. It makes it possible to make more defined NPCs instead of pixelhumpable egobooster clones.

Remember the computer is the DM in cRPG. The computer would know what is your char's sexuality in the same way as real DM would know just by asking it, and after that playing the NPCs in whatever  or :innocent: or  he wants.

So you want to actually change how the NPCs behave and what they say based on this pre-defined slider?  You think that this is somehow better than actually role playing your character and having the NPCs respond to that?  Why?

Because it sounds better if you can fit it into a roleplaying issue instead of it being a personal ickiness issue?

Not wanting to have gays hitting on you? Heh, well. It is certainly personal issue. Very personal.


Edit: Please remember I am not ur pixel humpable barbara.

Just so you know, every time you freak out minor interactions, a creepy, creepy gay fantasises about you. Every time. And they never, ever stop.

o' rly

Edit: Or should I say happy ******  

Modifié par moilami, 28 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Dark83 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
I'm arguing that the "if it's a choice, it's okay" argument is not a good argument to use since the same can be said about any trait/behavior.

That wasn't the argument, though. As someone mentioned, that's backwards.

Although that wasn't actually the initial arguement. Again, I was responsible for the original statement which brought race into it - a "no homosexuals" button would be as unacceptable as a "no black people" button, as the inclusion of such a feature is implicit endorsement of such discrimination.

The point there being "discrimination over something they had no choice over". It wasn't anything to do with civil rights, or black people specifically. It was that all of it - racisim, sexism, etc. is discrimination over something the victims have no choice over. In that way a "no ******" button would be the same as a "no blacks" or "no gingers" button.

In the attempt to not be associated with racism, the response hemmed and hawed over how it isn't similiar to racism. The obvious counter-arguement of "you can't choose your skin tone" pretty much implies that orientation is a choice, and gay people made the wrong choice to be gay.

Thus by appearing to to be trying to undermine the "gay isn't a choice" counter-counter-arguement you appeared to be supporting the aforementioned "I'm not like racists!" homophobes, thereby leading to heated replies to your posts repeating that orientation is not a choice.

Edit: The forums hate my spacing.

Yes, that about sums it up. I misunderstood the debate which was going on.

Seeing one of the above comments I'm quoting now though, isn't there already a "no blacks/gingers" button? You can customize your character to your hearts content

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Saeran wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Quantum mechanics? Srly?

Let's say for a momment I agree with you theory, I dont since I dont need science or theories when I have lived it first hand, but let's say I agree. Then tell me:
When do you exactly make the choice?
Can it be reverted? (who knows maybe Im still in time to become straight)

If we are to agree that free will exist, I can't say for sure. I don't think there'd ever be a case where one would wake up one morning and say "Hey, I've suddendly decided that I want to be homosexual." I think the desire would culminate over time and that the "choice" would be made subconsciously.

Whilst I understand your argument and as has been asked before in this thread in response to that, why would anyone ever make that decision? Even if it was the subcounscious deciding it? You learn pretty soon on what with the internetz and politicians all around the world.. There are a lot of places that REALLY don't like you. Your probably less likely to find your "ideal 1 in a million partner". Why would anyone ever subcounsciously decide that this is the way they want to live their life?

People do all sorts of things which parts of society may undermine. A lot of decisions being made because one values something  over the general consensus of society despite what consequences this may bring. For instance, if I decide to go troll a forum, even though the majority of the forum clearly opposes me and shall see to it that my account gets banned, as trolling seeking lulz, I may value the lulz over the detrimental results of my trolling.

If I were the homosexual in your example, perhaps I woudln't care even if there was a one in a million chance I'd find the ideal partner (actually, that's pretty much how I feel as someone who'd be classified as a heterosexual).

Anyways, all of this is assuming free will exist. I can't say for sure whether it does or doesn't (at least at this juncture).

[Tirigon]

moilami wrote...

Edit: Or should I say happy ******  

****** can be quite a pleasant pastime, depending on whom (or what) you fantasize about.
I´d rank it somewhere on the same level as playing a bad game, although below eating and playing a good game. Beats DA2 by worlds, tough.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

G0A wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

I'm not here to argue against homosexuality.

So why are you here exactly?

Mostly because I like arguing.

[Tirigon]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Seeing one of the above comments I'm quoting now though, isn't there already a "no blacks/gingers" button? You can customize your character to your hearts content

But you can´t change other NPCs. The "no blacks" option exists in the same way the "no gays" option does - your character doesn´t need to be, but some NPCs might and you can´t do sh!t about it. As it is supposed to be.

[moilami]

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

[Shawn Ogg]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

If we are to agree that free will exist, I can't say for sure. I don't think there'd ever be a case where one would wake up one morning and say "Hey, I've suddendly decided that I want to be homosexual." I think the desire would culminate over time and that the "choice" would be made subconsciously.

Okay, this you're going to have to explain a bit more. 

I think we're going to have to define a few things so we're not talking at cross-purposes. Sexual orientation, what is it? To me, it's who you're attracted to. Attraction is a physical allure based mostly in chemical processes. You don't have control over these so I'm inclined to say sexual orientation is not a choice.

If we're going about it by what I truly think, then first off, I don't believe there is even such a thing as sexual orientation. I think attraction should be the only word that is used as the idea we're discussing is way more complicated than just liking one gender over the other. Indeed, although one would consider me to be heterosexual, I'm not attracted to every woman. There are some women who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool and cannot maintain erection with under any condition. No offense to the ladies here who may weigh more than average, but I like women who are in shape. I also have a strong preference to women with red hair. If a woman is bald, that turns me off big time. There's also personality. Heavily neurotic chicks are a big no-no for me. Women who have a strong fiery personality are great. Now even with the descritpions I've given, even with all conditions met, there's still a chance that I'm not going to be attracted at all.

That being said, we go back to the subject of choice. And once again, my answer is  Free will ----> Choice.
~Choice ----> ~Free will. The conditions which you claim one has no control over are the same for all traits/behavior. I may understand why I'm attracted to women with red hair and fiery personalities (or at least have a partial understanding), but I didn't choose the conditions which led me to this attraction. How could I? I can't help what I was exposed to as a child nor who my parents were and genes I inherited.  If Free will exist though, we are to assume that trascends this understanding of causality which we heavily cling to on a day-to-day basis.

Do you realize that you speak a lot but end up saying nothing?
The question was as simple as: can you control who you are attracted to? You have spoken about your personal tastes and then said you hadnt any control over what have make you have those tastes. So you're not only not asnwering the question but also comfirming that a person dont have control over sexual attraction.

[Centauri2002]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

I think we're going to have to define a few things so we're not talking at cross-purposes. Sexual orientation, what is it? To me, it's who you're attracted to. Attraction is a physical allure based mostly in chemical processes. You don't have control over these so I'm inclined to say sexual orientation is not a choice. If we're going about it by what I truly think, then first off, I don't believe there is even such a thing as sexual orientation. I think attraction should be the only word that is used as the idea we're discussing is way more complicated than just liking one gender over the other. Indeed, although one would consider me to be heterosexual, I'm not attracted to every woman. There are some women who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool and cannot maintain erection with under any condition. No offense to the ladies here who may weigh more than average, but I like women who are in shape. I also have a strong preference to women with red hair. If a woman is bald, that turns me off big time. There's also personality. Heavily neurotic chicks are a big no-no for me. Women who have a strong fiery personality are great. Now even with the descritpions I've given, even with all conditions met, there's still a chance that I'm not going to be attracted at all.

That being said, we go back to the subject of choice. And once again, my answer is  Free will ----> Choice.
~Choice ----> ~Free will. The conditions which you claim one has no control over are the same for all traits/behavior. I may understand why I'm attracted to women with red hair and fiery personalities (or at least have a partial understanding), but I didn't choose the conditions which led me to this attraction. How could I? I can't help what I was exposed to as a child nor who my parents were and genes I inherited.  If Free will exist though, we are to assume that trascends this understanding of causality which we heavily cling to on a day-to-day basis.

As other people have stated sexual behaviour is not sexual orientation. We have a choice on how we act upon our attractions, sure.

That was a poor choice of words on my part. Lets use the word "trait/characteristic." Even operating under the paradigm of choice which you operate under, can you choose traits/characteristics?

And, if it really was a choice based on environmental input, etc, then wouldn't it be more likely that a lot of homosexuals would turn out straight due to all the negativity towards us?

One would think so, but that's too simple. As you may note in the articles which have been listed, scientist theorize that it's something which occurs in the developmental phases of one's life and for whatever reason. I don't fully understand it myself, but can see how characteristics which the mainstream society doesn't look favorable upon can be inputted into any individual

I just wanted to acknowledge the time and effort you put into this reply. Didn't want to simply ignore it, even though I'll have to bow out of the debate for now. Whether I agree with this or not is unimportant, I just think it was well articulated.

Now, I'm off to continue my FemShep/Liara fan fiction and indulge in my deviance. >:3

Modifié par centauri2002, 28 mars 2011 - 10:13 .

[Tirigon]

moilami wrote...

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

Too late. There have been 50 pages of that already.

Put some effort into trolling, at least, will you?

[moilami]

Tirigon wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Seeing one of the above comments I'm quoting now though, isn't there already a "no blacks/gingers" button? You can customize your character to your hearts content

But you can´t change other NPCs. The "no blacks" option exists in the same way the "no gays" option does - your character doesn´t need to be, but some NPCs might and you can´t do sh!t about it. As it is supposed to be.

But why I can't chose what sexuality my toon is in DA2?

[Seifz]

moilami wrote...

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

On page 105?  Really? 

[Centauri2002]

moilami wrote...

But why I can't chose what sexuality my toon is in DA2?

You do by choosing who you romance or not in-game (before anyone jumps on that as me saying it's a choice). Sexuality isn't a badge, you can't wear it. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 28 mars 2011 - 10:22 .

[moilami]

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

On page 105?  Really? 

checked ur achievements. u did not have "Grim Reaper". I have it  It might mean mine penis is bigger than urs :innocent: 

[Perfect-Kenshin]

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...


And no, I don't have evidence of the existence of free will. I can provide evidence of true probability, but that merely enables the possibility of free will; from what I know so far, it doesnt prove it. Hence why I've been a bit hesitant to argue in favor of free will throughout this discussion.

Just approach it from a philosophical debate point-of-view. As long are your arguments are logically constructed, I'm all for the debate. :3

Give me some time to think it over. Bridging free will with indeterminism is tough unless I go into sophist mode!

[Centauri2002]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Give me some time to think it over. Bridging free will with indeterminism is tough unless I go into sophist mode!

I wonder if you can tell which philosophical school of thought I adhere to from my debating methods. 

[Captain Jazz]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...


And no, I don't have evidence of the existence of free will. I can provide evidence of true probability, but that merely enables the possibility of free will; from what I know so far, it doesnt prove it. Hence why I've been a bit hesitant to argue in favor of free will throughout this discussion.

Just approach it from a philosophical debate point-of-view. As long are your arguments are logically constructed, I'm all for the debate. :3

Give me some time to think it over. Bridging free will with indeterminism is tough unless I go into sophist mode!

You could always go into solopsist mode and then you win by default.

[moilami]

centauri2002 wrote...

moilami wrote...

But why I can't chose what sexuality my toon is in DA2?

You do by choosing who you romance or not in-game (before anyone jumps on that as me saying it's a choice). Sexuality isn't a badge, you can't wear it. 

God did not let you chose? Lol.

[Centauri2002]

moilami wrote...

God did not let you chose? Lol.

God didn't seem to have a problem letting me choose who I romanced in-game. I guess he had no preferences. Maybe he's not a BioWare fan? No, no that can't be right. He must just not be a Dragon Age fan.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Incantrix wrote...
I am a homosexual, and I'm entirely offended by people who say it's a choice. If I could restart life again and make this "choice" on sexual preference, do you really believe I would choose to be gay? I'm comfortable with my sexuality, but don't you think I also want to live in a world where I can get married and have a nice house and live happily ever after with my spouse...and then have divorce and a fight to gain custody of my children?

I mean no offense, but it doesn't seem like you're happy with your sexuality when you say things like "If I could restart my life, I'd choose to be heterosexual."  I sense a lot of anger and self-loathing here. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to help you while on a message board. I think you should consider a psychologist as no good will come from keeping these feelings repressed and only presenting them on a online forum.

Ok now you went too far.

You have no idea what people have to suffer because of just being gay. not the slightest one. If you had you wounldnt answer like this. No once chooses his cards when born but since there is only one chance to live you just do the best you can with those cards.

Its not anger or self-loathing is just logic.  A poor man would prefer to have born in a wealthy family just because everything would have been easier. The same applies here.

Im happy now.: yes. but also im aware of that happiness would have been a lot easier to achieve if being born straight.

Sorry if it seems I went too far. I'm just calling it as  I see it. When people say things like "If they could choose, they wouldn't choose to be gay", that tells me that they aren't happy with themselves. As an african American, if I said "If I could choose, I'd be white", that'd suggest that I wasn't happy with my ethnicity.

As for me having no idea, quite the contrary. You try growing up in a backwards town where everyone hates you because of what you look like, where you get ostrasized at school everyday by both the students and the teachers, where some of your family members go to jail because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, where you get  accussed of stealing and cheating when your'e completely innocent. And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. Don't talk to me about having no idea what it's like to suffer. At least for those profess themselves as homosexual, they can simply keep quiet about it. What was I supposed to do? It's sad, but in many parts of this country, racism is no different than it was 40 years ago.

I know what it's like to be an outcast and I also know what it's like to rise above it and to be proud of what I am.


And your poor/rich man scenario doesn't apply as both of those states can be temporary. Based on what you've been saying in this thread, I'm assuming you think the same when it comes to orientation.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 28 mars 2011 - 10:40 .

[Russalka]

Are they keeping this abomination open to draw in all of the annoying discussion and keep it sane elsewhere?

[moilami]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Incantrix wrote...
I am a homosexual, and I'm entirely offended by people who say it's a choice. If I could restart life again and make this "choice" on sexual preference, do you really believe I would choose to be gay? I'm comfortable with my sexuality, but don't you think I also want to live in a world where I can get married and have a nice house and live happily ever after with my spouse...and then have divorce and a fight to gain custody of my children?

I mean no offense, but it doesn't seem like you're happy with your sexuality when you say things like "If I could restart my life, I'd choose to be heterosexual."  I sense a lot of anger and self-loathing here. Unfortunately, I don't have the means to help you while on a message board. I think you should consider a psychologist as no good will come from keeping these feelings repressed and only presenting them on a online forum.

Ok now you went too far.

You have no idea what people have to suffer because of just being gay. not the slightest one. If you had you wounldnt answer like this. No once chooses his cards when born but since there is only one chance to live you just do the best you can with those cards.

Its not anger or self-loathing is just logic.  A poor man would prefer to have born in a wealthy family just because everything would have been easier. The same applies here.

Im happy now.: yes. but also im aware of that happiness would have been a lot easier to achieve if being born straight.

Sorry if it seems I went too far. I'm just calling it as  I see it. When people say things like "If they could choose, they wouldn't choose to be gay", that tells me that they aren't happy with themselves. As an african American, if I said "If I could choose, I'd be white", that'd suggest that I wasn't happy with my ethnicity.

As for me having no idea, quite the contrary. You try growing up in a backwards town where everyone hates you because of what you look like, where you get ostrasized at school everyday by both the students and the teachers, where some of your family members go to jail because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, where you get  accussed of stealing and cheating when your'e completely innocent. And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. Don't talk to me about having no idea what it's like to suffer. At least for those profess themselves as homosexual, they can simply keep quiet about it. What was I supposed to do? It's sad, but in many parts of this country, racism is no different than it was 40 years ago.

I know what it's like to be an outcast and I also know what it's like to rise above it and to be proud of what I am.

This was the best writing here.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Tirigon wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Seeing one of the above comments I'm quoting now though, isn't there already a "no blacks/gingers" button? You can customize your character to your hearts content

But you can´t change other NPCs. The "no blacks" option exists in the same way the "no gays" option does - your character doesn´t need to be, but some NPCs might and you can´t do sh!t about it. As it is supposed to be.

From what I've understood, the "no gays" option we're talking about is choosing your character's orientation in the CC menu. The discussion (at least from what I've seen) isn't about whether there should be an option to exclude homosexual characters from the game.