2875 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

Russalka wrote...

Are they keeping this abomination open to draw in all of the annoying discussion and keep it sane elsewhere?

noooooooo, u mad?

[Centauri2002]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

But you can´t change other NPCs. The "no blacks" option exists in the same way the "no gays" option does - your character doesn´t need to be, but some NPCs might and you can´t do sh!t about it. As it is supposed to be.

From what I've understood, the "no gays" option we're talking about is choosing your character's orientation in the CC menu. The discussion (at least from what I've seen) isn't about whether there should be an option to exclude homosexual characters from the game.

I keep getting lured back here. >.>

The whole point, right at the beginning, was that people were 'exposed to the gay' when they didn't want to be. Oh, and that straight male gamers were being neglected. 

What the point is now, at this point... beats me. 

Modifié par centauri2002, 28 mars 2011 - 10:46 .

[randName]

107.
107.

Some people must have found more meaning in this thread than their entire lives ~ and/or DA2.

Or I have to re-evaluate my 6.5 score of DA2 to an 7-8 given how much value the game seems to have given so many people.

[Centauri2002]

randName wrote...

107.
107.

Some people must have found more meaning in this thread than their entire lives ~ and/or DA2.

Or I have to re-evaluate my 6.5 score of DA2 to an 7-8 given how much value the game seems to have given so many people.

Whatever you have to say about the game and how good or bad it might have been... at least it's brokered debate. 

[Russalka]

moilami wrote...
noooooooo, u mad?

Puzzled, more like. I have yet to see you make a coherent reply though. Are you permanently drunk?

[JediMB]

Captain Cornhole wrote...

Your misreading what I said.

My apologies. I think I'll sleep now.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

From what I've understood, the
"no gays" option we're talking about is choosing your character's
orientation in the CC menu. The discussion (at least from what I've
seen) isn't about whether there should be an option to exclude
homosexual characters from the game.

Both options have been discussed. As I recall, the idea that you would pre-define your own character's sexuality was brought up after quite a bit of debating on the ethics of including an option that stopped other characters from being anything but heterosexual.

[moilami]

Captain Cornhole wrote...



Your more then welcome to have your own opinion on the matter, I just thought I would chime in....yet again. Sure your more then welcome to make a poll, if you want you can even go a step further. I was talking to Stanley Woo about groups in a PM of mine and he said it was okay to discuss hot topics such as politics or religion as long as it is kept civil. If you want you can create a group to discuss you can do so. Thought you might would like to know that.

I go into politics when I believe I can change the world.

[Russalka]

A person being heterosexual does not stop people of the same gender from flirting with the person. Why should it be so in the game?

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

If we are to agree that free will exist, I can't say for sure. I don't think there'd ever be a case where one would wake up one morning and say "Hey, I've suddendly decided that I want to be homosexual." I think the desire would culminate over time and that the "choice" would be made subconsciously.

Okay, this you're going to have to explain a bit more. 

I think we're going to have to define a few things so we're not talking at cross-purposes. Sexual orientation, what is it? To me, it's who you're attracted to. Attraction is a physical allure based mostly in chemical processes. You don't have control over these so I'm inclined to say sexual orientation is not a choice.

If we're going about it by what I truly think, then first off, I don't believe there is even such a thing as sexual orientation. I think attraction should be the only word that is used as the idea we're discussing is way more complicated than just liking one gender over the other. Indeed, although one would consider me to be heterosexual, I'm not attracted to every woman. There are some women who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool and cannot maintain erection with under any condition. No offense to the ladies here who may weigh more than average, but I like women who are in shape. I also have a strong preference to women with red hair. If a woman is bald, that turns me off big time. There's also personality. Heavily neurotic chicks are a big no-no for me. Women who have a strong fiery personality are great. Now even with the descritpions I've given, even with all conditions met, there's still a chance that I'm not going to be attracted at all.

That being said, we go back to the subject of choice. And once again, my answer is  Free will ----> Choice.
~Choice ----> ~Free will. The conditions which you claim one has no control over are the same for all traits/behavior. I may understand why I'm attracted to women with red hair and fiery personalities (or at least have a partial understanding), but I didn't choose the conditions which led me to this attraction. How could I? I can't help what I was exposed to as a child nor who my parents were and genes I inherited.  If Free will exist though, we are to assume that trascends this understanding of causality which we heavily cling to on a day-to-day basis.

Do you realize that you speak a lot but end up saying nothing?
The question was as simple as: can you control who you are attracted to? You have spoken about your personal tastes and then said you hadnt any control over what have make you have those tastes. So you're not only not asnwering the question but also comfirming that a person dont have control over sexual attraction.

Ha ha. I don't think so, but do you think I'd make a good politician?

My simplest answer: If free will exist, yes. If there is no free will, no. I spoke about my personal taste to elaborate on my belief that sexual orientation doesn't exist and that attraction and how it develops should be the only factor to consider. Nonetheless, if free will doesn't exist, my specific taste in women is a result of my genetics/upbringing.

Let me again reiterate that my original intention in engaging in this thread was not necessarily to discuss free will, but to discuss the logical implications of insisting that "if there's no choice, it's okay."

[Seifz]

moilami wrote...

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

On page 105?  Really? 

checked ur achievements. u did not have "Grim Reaper". I have it  It might mean mine penis is bigger than urs :innocent: 

It might be!  I've never actually measured.  Nobody's ever complained about it, so I guess it's good.

Anyway, I never finished the last two DLCs.  I really should.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

I think we're going to have to define a few things so we're not talking at cross-purposes. Sexual orientation, what is it? To me, it's who you're attracted to. Attraction is a physical allure based mostly in chemical processes. You don't have control over these so I'm inclined to say sexual orientation is not a choice. If we're going about it by what I truly think, then first off, I don't believe there is even such a thing as sexual orientation. I think attraction should be the only word that is used as the idea we're discussing is way more complicated than just liking one gender over the other. Indeed, although one would consider me to be heterosexual, I'm not attracted to every woman. There are some women who I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pool and cannot maintain erection with under any condition. No offense to the ladies here who may weigh more than average, but I like women who are in shape. I also have a strong preference to women with red hair. If a woman is bald, that turns me off big time. There's also personality. Heavily neurotic chicks are a big no-no for me. Women who have a strong fiery personality are great. Now even with the descritpions I've given, even with all conditions met, there's still a chance that I'm not going to be attracted at all.

That being said, we go back to the subject of choice. And once again, my answer is  Free will ----> Choice.
~Choice ----> ~Free will. The conditions which you claim one has no control over are the same for all traits/behavior. I may understand why I'm attracted to women with red hair and fiery personalities (or at least have a partial understanding), but I didn't choose the conditions which led me to this attraction. How could I? I can't help what I was exposed to as a child nor who my parents were and genes I inherited.  If Free will exist though, we are to assume that trascends this understanding of causality which we heavily cling to on a day-to-day basis.

As other people have stated sexual behaviour is not sexual orientation. We have a choice on how we act upon our attractions, sure.

That was a poor choice of words on my part. Lets use the word "trait/characteristic." Even operating under the paradigm of choice which you operate under, can you choose traits/characteristics?

And, if it really was a choice based on environmental input, etc, then wouldn't it be more likely that a lot of homosexuals would turn out straight due to all the negativity towards us?

One would think so, but that's too simple. As you may note in the articles which have been listed, scientist theorize that it's something which occurs in the developmental phases of one's life and for whatever reason. I don't fully understand it myself, but can see how characteristics which the mainstream society doesn't look favorable upon can be inputted into any individual

I just wanted to acknowledge the time and effort you put into this reply. Didn't want to simply ignore it, even though I'll have to bow out of the debate for now. Whether I agree with this or not is unimportant, I just think it was well articulated.

Now, I'm off to continue my FemShep/Liara fan fiction and indulge in my deviance. >:3

Many thanks for the discussion. It's good converse intellectualy with peers every once in a while.

I too can't linger on here for too long though. This forum has cleverly been used by the twin demons of procrastination and distraction in order to keep me from finishing a paper.

[Shawn Ogg]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Sorry if it seems I went too far. I'm just calling it as  I see it. When people say things like "If they could choose, they wouldn't choose to be gay", that tells me that they aren't happy with themselves. As an african American, if I said "If I could choose, I'd be white", that'd suggest that I wasn't happy with my ethnicity.

When people say these things its not because they aremt happy with themselves but with the situations they have to comfront. As I already said you do what you can with what you have in search of hapinness. But people are not blind and can see that if their situation were different hapinness would be an easier goal to achieve. Does that mean that if Im not in that ideal situation that will lead to anger and self-loathing? Of course not.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
As for me having no idea, quite the contrary. You try growing up in a backwards town where everyone hates you because of what you look like, where you get ostrasized at school everyday by both the students and the teachers, where some of your family members go to jail because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, where you get  accussed of stealing and cheating when your'e completely innocent. And that's not even the tip of the iceberg. Don't talk to me about having no idea what it's like to suffer. At least for those profess themselves as homosexual, they can simply keep quiet about it. What was I supposed to do? It's sad, but in many parts of this country, racism is no different than it was 40 years ago.

I know what it's like to be an outcast and I also know what it's like to rise above it and to be proud of what I am.

Im not going to start here a discussion about hard situations. That would only leads to self-loathing.
Im sorry you also had your own problems and glad you managed to solve them.  Just dont try to put different types of discriminations on a balance. All are the same.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

And your poor/rich man scenario doesn't apply as both of those states can be temporary. Based on what you've been saying in this thread, I'm assuming you think the same when it comes to orientation.

You grab every word like a tick and the try to use them in a twisted way to try to make your point. It was just an example no more no less. And if you rly read my posts in this topics you already know your assumption is wrong.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

centauri2002 wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...
Give me some time to think it over. Bridging free will with indeterminism is tough unless I go into sophist mode!

I wonder if you can tell which philosophical school of thought I adhere to from my debating methods. 

I'm not certain You skillfully caught on to me not answering your question directly earlier. I'm guessing you're pretty good at cross examination. An indication of one who favors the Socratic method.

The suspense is killing me. Which one?

[moilami]

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...

in b4 random "Thank you so very much for blasting Homophobic Fan" emo.

On page 105?  Really? 

checked ur achievements. u did not have "Grim Reaper". I have it  It might mean mine penis is bigger than urs :innocent: 

It might be!  I've never actually measured.  Nobody's ever complained about it, so I guess it's good.

Anyway, I never finished the last two DLCs.  I really should.

Lol.

Golems DLC was pretty fine. Dwarf stuff and not hippy elves and forests. The boss was interesting too. Worth playing.

[RyuAzai]

To be honest I'm not going say I've been combining through this thread, mostly just catching a page here or there or reading what John Epler has been posting.

And I'll just say right now, I'm a straight male gamer that falls into that demographic. And I enjoyed a same-sex romance with the character Anders. I thought the writing was good, the drama of what can happen, and decisions you have to make as a character(Trying not to put in spoilers here) gave a satisfying romance.

Why I say this, is because I remember a long time ago I was in another of these threads. I admit I was vehemently arguing in support of same sex romances in the games, against some other forum users that were really against it. The next thing I know they were telling me I was a minority, and because I was gay and not straight I wouldn't see it from their point of view. I was completely baffled. Could people truly not understand that someone does not have to be apart of a minority to know that privilege and inequality is wrong?

The thing is John shows a huge point. As straight, male, and white I am a demographic that gets played to in almost all media forums. All the time, and most of the time. I don't understand when someone includes others that people would be upset.I also almost find it insulting that one person tries to "speak" for a group that I am apart of without even asking my input. Honestly a hundred people may think similar to you, but you'd be hard pressed to find a couple of thousand that --total-- agree on exactly what you think.

[Centauri2002]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

]I'm not certain You skillfully caught on to me not answering your question directly earlier. I'm guessing you're pretty good at cross examination. An indication of one who favors the Socratic method. 

The suspense is killing me. Which one?

Ahaha, you would be correct. I've studied classical Studies intensively so Greek philosophy was one of the topics I delved into rather deeply. Socrates' logic appealed to me. I wouldn't say I stick to his princples solely but I think it's fairly accurate to say his methods have influenced me. :3

Modifié par centauri2002, 28 mars 2011 - 11:32 .

[Dark83]

MSparkyPants wrote...
Dear BioWare,
Thank you for making the romance options Hawke-sexual.
Less than three, Sparky

Damn straight, it's validating the fact that I'm just that damn sexy! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]

moilami wrote...

But why I can't chose what sexuality my toon is in DA2?

You already do. Hawke's sexuality is whatever you decide. It is then up to you to act in accordance to what you have decided. It's that pesky RP thing, where you act according to your character.

Regardless of if they provide you with a radio button that says "Homosexual, Heterosexual, Bisexual", the desperate gay guy will hit on you, and the ****ty pirate will hit on you. It's irrelevant, so it isn't included. Anders doesn't know if you like him in that way unless he asks, so he asks. Regardless of if you've told DA2 your Hawke is straight. The game/DM provides you with situations, it is up to you to act accordingly.

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

From what I've understood, the "no gays" option we're talking about is choosing your character's orientation in the CC menu. The discussion (at least from what I've seen) isn't about whether there should be an option to exclude homosexual characters from the game.

You've misunderstood, or rather, you've bitten onto the strawman. Related to the quote above yours.


Any choice of your character's orientation in CC is irrelevant. Even if they gave us a choice, it would literally do nothing. Anders won't know you don't like men unless your Man-Hawke rejects him, Isabela won't know you don't like women unless your Fem-Hawke rejects her. Such a "choice" does nothing - as such this is not what those who want such a feature are talking about.

Again, such a button as you described it would do absolutely nothing. A lesbian in real life will still be approached by guys unless they make it known they aren't into guys. Your orientation means nothing to the rest of the world if the rest of the world doesn't know. You have to make it known - which is the current state of things. Hawke says no.

Such a button would only be meaningful if it affects the game world such that no same sex companion ever propositions you - that is, the button affects the game world to remove the unwanted.

Edit: Argh, random paragraph breaks.

Modifié par Dark83, 28 mars 2011 - 11:14 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

Sorry if it seems I went too far. I'm just calling it as  I see it. When people say things like "If they could choose, they wouldn't choose to be gay", that tells me that they aren't happy with themselves. As an african American, if I said "If I could choose, I'd be white", that'd suggest that I wasn't happy with my ethnicity.

When people say these things its not because they aremt happy with themselves but with the situations they have to comfront. As I already said you do what you can with what you have in search of hapinness. But people are not blind and can see that if their situation were different hapinness would be an easier goal to achieve. Does that mean that if Im not in that ideal situation that will lead to anger and self-loathing? Of course not.

Except the situation they have to confront specifically involves an aspect of himself. If one is going to wish the situation were different, why not wish the world were more tolerant? I agree that everyone searches for happiness. Believe me when I say this as its a concept I understand better than most.

As for you, it depends. If you were wishing something about yourself would change, that means you are not content with yourself. Now, if it doesn't involve yourself, but rather your environment (i.e.wishing you had more money), that's a different matter (although I do still insist that everyone try and remember to be happy with what they have, otherwise, true happiness is impossible to obtain).

Im not going to start here a discussion about hard situations. That would only leads to self-loathing.
Im sorry you also had your own problems and glad you managed to solve them.  Just dont try to put different types of discriminations on a balance. All are the same.

I don't see any reason to believe they are different. It's simply another aspect of the human condition. Regardless of who you are or where you came from, you are going to experience sadness and struggling in one form or another. You may find yourself looking at wealthy people thinking that they have everything, but I assure you that the grass is always greener on the other side and that we are all the same.

You grab every word like a tick and the try to use them in a twisted way to try to make your point. It was just an example no more no less. And if you rly read my posts in this topics you already know your assumption is wrong.

I took the LSAT and am currently on my way to becoming a litigator. If I didn't know how to deconstruct someone's response and examine it piece by piece, I'd be in trouble.

But no, I have not tried to twist any of your words against you. I was using the idea you were positing and looking for a means to illustrate how that same idea actually opposes the overall message in your argument.

As for the assumption, that was a typo. I meant to say "you DON'T THINK."

[Dark83]

I don't know if we have entirely free will or not - we're moist robots. We have the illusion of free will, and perhaps within a certain range it really is free. Most serial killers can't choose not to kill. We can't choose to randomly commit suicide. There's a lot of things that guide how we act.

There is no version of Vimes as he exists now who would kill his wife.

[Captain Jazz]

Dark83 wrote...

I don't know if we have entirely free will or not - we're moist robots. We have the illusion of free will, and perhaps within a certain range it really is free. Most serial killers can't choose not to kill. We can't choose to randomly commit suicide. There's a lot of things that guide how we act.

There is no version of Vimes as he exists now who would kill his wife.

I find the term "moist robot" highly offensive. I much prefer to be referred to as "electric meat."
Thank you.

[Shawn Ogg]

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

You know what, Im just tired of this discussion. You just seem more interested in using big word and phrases than in the matter itself, just paraphrasing yourself over and over again. You are just arguing for pleasure but you dont realize that many of the things discussed here are things many have to comfront constantly so they are not a meaningless issue for you to pass the time.

All this argue started about the choice thing. Well It seems neither of us are going to change his point of view so there is no point on keep going with it.

BTW, I DO think I just dont think like you.

Modifié par Shawn Ogg, 28 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[Dark83]

Captain Jazz wrote...

I find the term "moist robot" highly offensive. I much prefer to be referred to as "electric meat."
Thank you.

That sounds dirty. I like it!

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Shawn Ogg wrote...

Perfect-Kenshin wrote...

You know what, Im just tired of this discussion. You just seem more interested in using big word and phrases than in the matter itself, just paraphrasing yourself over and over again. You are just arguing for pleasure but you dont realize that many of the things discussed here are things many have to comfront constantly so they are not a meaningless issue for you to pass the time.

All this argue started about the choice thing. Well It seems neither of us are going to change his point of view so there is no point on keep going with it.

BTW, I DO think I just dont think like you.

No, I mean you DON"T THINK THE SAME when it comes to orientation. Reread the post you were talking about. There was supposed to be a "don't" there, but I that didn't end up happening.