2875 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

catabuca wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Yeah, a lot of people don't seem to realize that one can be bisexual and still have a preference for one sex over the other.

It would seem that both Anders and Fenris prefer women, although in Fenris' case it could simply be a matter of availability... since Isabela is easy, and all. For Anders I'm judging from his behavior in Awakening, of course.

That's just it though - you can infer anything you like from their actions in the game, since there is never a specific declaration of preference one way or another. Which is exactly what Gaider says in his quotes above.

Some take the fact that in a fHawke game Fenris likes fHawke as some kind of 'proof' that if he falls for a mHawke in a mHawke game Hawke has somehow 'turned him'. I really do not understand that logic at all.

Others take the fact that Anders doesn't mention his sexual relationship with Karl to fHawke as meaning that he is straight in a fHawke game but gay/bi in a mHawke game. Again, the logic here is astounding. Sure, if that's how you want to view Anders, then that's fine, but to use that as some kind of hard proof of a specific sexuality that is canonical is bizarre. I could just as correctly interpret that as Anders just not thinking it was relevant to tell a fHawke about his deeper relationship with Karl, whereas he tells mHawke because it's more pertinent to their situation and a way of him trying to test the water to see if Hawke likes him in that way. Either way is perfectly fine in terms of how you interpret your own game, but neither is 'correct' and set in stone. It's all open to interpretation, and I think that is wonderful.

I don't require people irl to justify and explain their orientation to me before I can accept it is a part of who they are. If all the characters in DA2 had been written as canonically straight in every playthrough, I wouldn't need them to come forward and have a few lines of dialogue where they explain to me that they are straight before I can accept it as a deep and realistic part of their personality. Why is it so many people feel that these characters being bisexual or gay DOES require some sort of dialogue to justify it? That, my friends, is a double standard.

And again, it comes down to the notion of privilege. When you are in the majority, your orientation or behaviour or preferences need no explanation since it simply 'is'. However, you view the preferences or behaviour of others who are in a minority as needing an explanation because it falls outside of your view of what is generally expected and accepted of people. But this is just the thing: being gay needs no more explanation or justification than being straight, and when some call for the characters to be written in a way that expands on their homosexuality with dialogue options that explain it, I wonder would you expect the same from a straight character? Honestly? Would you only accept a character is 'convincingly' straight if they explain their straightness to you first? No. I doubt you would. 

Has someone asked you why you are a gay?


Edit: And that was not trolling. It was [investigate].

Modifié par moilami, 29 mars 2011 - 12:32 .

[Seifz]

moilami wrote...
In other words, why not make real gays?

When asked, DG said that they would never make a strictly gay romance character because it wouldn't appeal to enough people to justify spending resources on it.  I think that's crap.  If anything, he's just agreeing with the original "straight male gamer" theory.

Maybe he's learned something from all of this?  One can hope.

[moilami]

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...
In other words, why not make real gays?

When asked, DG said that they would never make a strictly gay romance character because it wouldn't appeal to enough people to justify spending resources on it.  I think that's crap.  If anything, he's just agreeing with the original "straight male gamer" theory.

Maybe he's learned something from all of this?  One can hope.

They could also make a gay char even if he would not be romanceable. Like Avelina could had been gay.

[catabuca]

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...
In other words, why not make real gays?

When asked, DG said that they would never make a strictly gay romance character because it wouldn't appeal to enough people to justify spending resources on it.  I think that's crap.  If anything, he's just agreeing with the original "straight male gamer" theory.

Maybe he's learned something from all of this?  One can hope.

It's not crap. It's called having to deal with a very real issue of resources. It would be excellent if they could produce a range of straight/gay/bi characters for us to romance, but there just aren't enough resources to do it justice at the moment. Perhaps one day in the future, who knows. At this point, at least by compromising and having all the LIs available to all players and all Hawkes it means the maximum amount of content is available to the maximum amount of people. It apparently costs very little to implement a bisexual romance into a character that was created as an LI, however to create a completely new character, with everything that involves, purely to have a strictly gay option would be an awful lot of work.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is, at the moment, the best one they have. 

[Seifz]

catabuca wrote...

Seifz wrote...

moilami wrote...
In other words, why not make real gays?

When asked, DG said that they would never make a strictly gay romance character because it wouldn't appeal to enough people to justify spending resources on it.  I think that's crap.  If anything, he's just agreeing with the original "straight male gamer" theory.

Maybe he's learned something from all of this?  One can hope.

It's not crap. It's called having to deal with a very real issue of resources. It would be excellent if they could produce a range of straight/gay/bi characters for us to romance, but there just aren't enough resources to do it justice at the moment. Perhaps one day in the future, who knows. At this point, at least by compromising and having all the LIs available to all players and all Hawkes it means the maximum amount of content is available to the maximum amount of people. It apparently costs very little to implement a bisexual romance into a character that was created as an LI, however to create a completely new character, with everything that involves, purely to have a strictly gay option would be an awful lot of work.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is, at the moment, the best one they have.

It is crap.  Did you read the original "straight male gamer" post?  His entire point was that games should be designed to appeal to the majority of players, which he believes to be both straight and male.  Having the LIs be all bisexual is wrong, he says, as this does not appeal to the majority of players.

Characters should be designed as characters, not as characters that appeal to the most people.  If a character is gay, he's gay.  So what if his romance plot doesn't appeal to as many people as, say, Morrigan's?  Good character design should stand on its own.

Look, I understand the "most bang for your buck" concept, but do we really want to encourage BioWare to go that route?  That's what leads to reused areas, less story, blander or more stereotypical characters, and... well, **** like Call of Duty.  We've got enough companies doing this.  I know that BioWare has shifted from a niche developer to something more mainstream, but I don't have to like it and I fully intend to continue speaking out against nonsense like the romances in DA2.

[Chriagon]

But if Bioware would actually create a gay only character, the anti gay fraction here would probably come up and argue "Look, Bioware had some extra resources to spend to please a few gays. They better should have made a more beautiful game world for the majority" for example.

[LightningSamus]

Wow the companions are bi so it's going to effect their personality? I think people need to get over it jeez.

It's optional, it you don't want to have M/M or F/F relationship then just say no. I want to so why should i not just because you don't?

It think the homophobes are just selfish and don't want anyone else to enjoy romancing characters they with the same sex.

The game doesnt force you to do any of this so why make a big complaint out of a small thing, when i heard Anders was bi it didn't make me feel anything different just because of his sexuality.

I'm glad the option is there, i can be gay straight or bi in this game and nobody is forcing me to do so, maybe some people are actually gay/bi and are probably struggling with it makining the paraniod an insecure that they'd go out ad pretend to hate it.

Just get over it!

Modifié par LightningSamus, 29 mars 2011 - 01:21 .

[catabuca]

@Seifz -- Like I said, it's a compromise. There's really no point arguing over whether it would be better to have a panoply of gay/bi/straight characters all available to romance, because of course that would be preferable. But it's not feasible within the constraints of their design budgeting.

If it's a choice between having 4 bi LIs who represent equal content to all players, and 2 straight, 2 bi, who offer choice to straight players but not to gay/bi players, then I'll take 4 bi LIs. Or if it's a case of saying 'go the whole hog or don't bother', then you're simply cutting off your nose to spite your face.

You have to walk before you can run, otherwise you fall flat on your face.

We're all entitled to our opinions here. I, personally, have not found one thing I would describe as 'nonsense' within the DA2 romances. I don't find them 'stereotypical'. I don't find them bland. Listening to Fen talking about his experiences with the fog warriors was very emotional. Watching Anders' mental health deteriorate was heartbreaking. Being able to cultivate a loving relationship with Isabela despite her carefree nature is rewarding. Having to negotiate Merrill's naivety and generally bat**** crazy outlook on life brings its own challenges. Each of these characters has their own emotional baggage, their own past, and being able to watch them grow, and be a part of the direction in which they grow, is very satisfying to me. And most importantly, I don't require a codex entry or an explanatory conversation with them about their sexual orientation in order to see them as individual and rich characters. They are attracted to Hawke, that tells me all I need to know about their sexual orientation. The rest of my relationship with them is based on the other parts of their lives, you know, the parts that actually matter to the story.

[JediMB]

Seifz wrote...

It is crap.  Did you read the original "straight male gamer" post?  His entire point was that games should be designed to appeal to the majority of players, which he believes to be both straight and male.  Having the LIs be all bisexual is wrong, he says, as this does not appeal to the majority of players.

I have to disagree.

Or would you claim that the majority of players are either bigoted or obsessed with probabilities?

EDIT: As far as probabilities go, in my canon both the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall were lesbian. What are the odds of that? 

Modifié par JediMB, 29 mars 2011 - 01:34 .

[Seifz]

JediMB wrote...

Seifz wrote...

It is crap.  Did you read the original "straight male gamer" post?  His entire point was that games should be designed to appeal to the majority of players, which he believes to be both straight and male.  Having the LIs be all bisexual is wrong, he says, as this does not appeal to the majority of players.

I have to disagree.

Or would you claim that the majority of players are either bigoted or obsessed with probabilities?

EDIT: As far as probabilities go, in my canon both the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall were lesbian. What are the odds of that? 

I was explaining the argument put forth my the "straight male gamer" that started all of this.  It should be obvious from my posts that I don't agree with it.

[JediMB]

Okay, if I can't tell what people are saying anymore, I think I've had about enough of this thread.

[Dark83]

catabuca wrote...

Some take the fact that in a fHawke game Fenris likes fHawke as some kind of 'proof' that if he falls for a mHawke in a mHawke game Hawke has somehow 'turned him'. I really do not understand that logic at all.

That's not what I said at all.

It seems blatantly obvious to me there is not one canonical sequence of events with regards to the orientation of your companions, or your siblings. It changes depending on the orientation and sex of Hawke, and their class.

The only thing relevant to the universe of fHawke is what actually happens in fHawke's universe. Just like how what happened for mage Hawke is different from rogue Hawke. For a mage Hawke, for all intents and purposes, they lost there sister. There is no universe where mage Hawke lost his brother. Within fHawke's narrative, Karl is never mentioned in a romantic fashion for Anders, thus there is absolutely no justification to conclude that they were intimate in that narrative universe.

In the straight mHawke universe, straight mHawke would never hit on Fenris. Within that universe, the only information we have about Fenris' sexuality is that he ends up regularly sleeping with Isabela. There is no justification to conclude that he likes men. At best, he definetely likes women, and he may or may not like men.

Now, in the narrative of gay/bi mHawke, Fenris is bi/gay. I was under the impression that Fenris freaks out over being romanced by mHawke - hence the turning comment. I don't know if it's just his general romance hissy fit, or if he has specific OMG closet lines - so if he doesn't, then I retract the times I've mentioned "turning" Fenris and apologise for any offense I may have caused.

Edit: Of course, I assumed that Fenris, for mHawke, is straight as opposed to bi purely because he never hit on my sexy sexy Hawke. Edit 2: Even though I was totally bromancing him.

Modifié par Dark83, 29 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[catabuca]

@Dark -- I apologise if I made it sound like I was singling you out. That was not my intention. I specifically said 'some people' because I when I reply in here I tend towards long wall of text posts that meander over many subjects that come up by many people over a number of posts. If I'm pointing the finger at one person in particular, I name them and address them directly. But I apologise if I wasn't clear.

When mHawke romances Fenris, and they spend the night together, Fenris is seen afterwards standing by the fire. Hawke worries that something is wrong. He has the option of asking something along the lines of 'was it because it was with another man', to which Fenris says no, that isn't the reason he's freaking out. He's freaking out because while they were having sex he started to regain some of his memories.

Now, the fact that Hawke asks if it weirded him out being with a dude could certainly be construed as Hawke assuming (or even knowing) this was Fen's first time with a guy. However, it certainly doesn't definitively mean that. Again, it's all down to player interpretation. I interpret it as Hawke never having asked Fenris if he'd been with a man before, and so he wanted to know if that was the reason why. I haven't actually decided whether in my game Fenris had slept with a man before or not. It doesn't especially matter to me. I can understand why some would read these events and suggest that this was Fen's first time with a man, I don't get that from it but it's a valid interpretation. But to suggest that Fenris' orientation or behaviour changes in some way at the player's whim is what I take issue with.

There is nothing in the game, regardless of whether he'd been with men before or not (and in fact you could make a case for him having been with men before due to comments about the fog warriors, but again it's all completely down to interpretation), that suggests he wouldn't have been hot for another dude had Hawke not made advances. We simply do not have the information to say either way. And so it is down to each of us to construct the narrative that we think makes sense for us.

As for you assuming Fen was straight because he didn't hit on your Hawke, well, Fen's the type who waits for Hawke to initiate. One doesn't need to make the first move in order to be gay/bi ;-)

[Dark83]

Ah, I did not know that.
I commented because, afaik, I'm the only one who (in the process of saying the companions aren't all bi) stated that unless you romance him as a mHawke, as far as the narrative is concerned he's straight - based purely on the fact that all we see from a fHawke and straight mHawke perspective is that he likes women.

Of course, again, this is using a lack of information to default to the most likely (ie. majority), which I now realize may offend some.

Modifié par Dark83, 29 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[catabuca]

Dark83 wrote...

Ah, I did not know that.
I commented because, afaik, I'm the only one who (in the process of saying the companions aren't all bi) stated that unless you romance him as a mHawke, as far as the narrative is concerned he's straight - based purely on the fact that all we see from a fHawke and straight mHawke perspective is that he likes women.

Of course, again, this is using a lack of information to default to the most likely (ie. majority), which I now realize may offend some.

It's all good

There's nothing wrong with you assuming Fen is straight when you're playing the game, as long as you recognise that it's nothing more than an interpretation, and other interpretations are equally as valid. Which you are doing, so that's awesome

And yeah, using a lack of information to default to the 'most likely' is a big old indicator of being a member of a privileged part of society, or, if you are not a member of the privileged part of society, it indicates having internalised those views because they are prevalent. That's not to say you should beat yourself up about it, because we're all what we are and there is no one group who is better than any other. All it means is we should each be aware of our privilege and the effect it has on our beliefs and interactions.

I'm white, and as such have white privilege. I'm aware that when I read a novel, unless the protagonist's ethnicity is disclosed to me, I'm likely to just assume, perhaps without even ever thinking about it, that they are white. I am, however, aware of this privilege, and I take pains to try to use language that doesn't assume these things, because, after all, there is no reason that protagonist couldn't be Asian, or Hispanic. Their ethnicity or race doesn't need to be stated as something other than Caucasian in order for them to be so.

Conversely, I'm female, and as such am on the receiving end of male privilege. There have been lots of times (when a person cannot see what I look like) when it has been assumed I am male, either because of the opinions I hold or the things I do. Clearly those people were wrong, but they still formed that conclusion anyway. And that is because of the male privilege that exists. There are lots of ways we each hold certain privileges, and other ways in which we are minorities -- as long as we recognise when we belong to these groups and understand the implications of our actions and comments then it's ok to assume someone might be male, or gay, or straight, or white until you know otherwise, as long as you don't suggest it has to be that way until you're given firm proof of the other.

[Darth Death]

DoneWithThisCompany wrote...

The fact of the matter is... there shouldn't be male characters hitting on you if you're playing a male character. That's disgusting.

Gay people have their own game, it's called dying of AIDS.

While I agree to a extent, you could've rephrase it better and left the last piece out.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

Darth Death wrote...

DoneWithThisCompany wrote...

The fact of the matter is... there shouldn't be male characters hitting on you if you're playing a male character. That's disgusting.

Gay people have their own game, it's called dying of AIDS.

While I agree to a extent, you could've rephrase it better and left the last piece out.

You're talking about people dying here, Done.  You don't like a storytelling/character design decision in the game.  I don't like it either--may never bother with the game, in significant part, because of it.  But you're talking about the prolonged suffering and death of a lot of people.  A lot of us have watched people die from the disease, even straight, uptight conservatives like me who don't like a lot of gay in their video games.  It doesn't work well in jokes.

Hate the game, organize a boycott, notify Fox News--protest the game however you like.  Don't find amusement in so much death.  You're eroding your own humanity when you talk like this.

[Dark83]

catabuca wrote...

I'm white, and as such have white privilege. I'm aware that when I read a novel, unless the protagonist's ethnicity is disclosed to me, I'm likely to just assume, perhaps without even ever thinking about it, that they are white.

I'm not white, and I assume that, at least for 99% of fantasy novels.

I think I assume it for fantasy because they tend to be set in generic Medieval Europe-land, and perhaps beause the novels are in English (which is a second language for me). [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

[catabuca]

Dark83 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I'm white, and as such have white privilege. I'm aware that when I read a novel, unless the protagonist's ethnicity is disclosed to me, I'm likely to just assume, perhaps without even ever thinking about it, that they are white.

I'm not white, and I assume that, at least for 99% of fantasy novels.

I think I assume it for fantasy because they tend to be set in generic Medieval Europe-land, and perhaps beause the novels are in English (which is a second language for me). [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Oh yeah, there are absolutely very real reasons why we do assume these things. You can't ignore that. The difference is then proclaiming these things must be true because of an absence of evidence either way, rather than recognising that a lack of evidence either way leaves it up in the air. 

I should say, if I read something and a person's gender isn't defined in any way, I'm probably going to assume they are male, even though I'm female. That goes back to the part I wrote about about internalising this privilege that exists elsewhere. 

The crucial part in all of this is, as I said, understanding that a lack of evidence, or a lack of any kind of statement, as to a person's gender, ethnicity, orientation, health, or whatever, isn't a green light to proclaim that that person MUST be white, straight, male and able-bodied until proven otherwise. They might be, but they might not be. 

[Seifz]

catabuca wrote...

I should say, if I read something and a person's gender isn't defined in any way, I'm probably going to assume they are male, even though I'm female. That goes back to the part I wrote about about internalising this privilege that exists elsewhere.

Really?  I'm the opposite.  Everyone is female until I'm told otherwise.  I'm not sure why.  Maybe I just want them to be female?  I don't know.

Sadly, most end up eventually being male anyway.  Oh, well.  :/

[Tirigon]

DoneWithThisCompany wrote...

The fact of the matter is... there shouldn't be male characters hitting on you if you're playing a male character. That's disgusting.

Gay people have their own game, it's called dying of AIDS.

Can´t take you seriously, name says it all.

Obvious failtroll is tooo obvious......

[Tirigon]

Dark83 wrote...

catabuca wrote...

I'm white, and as such have white privilege. I'm aware that when I read a novel, unless the protagonist's ethnicity is disclosed to me, I'm likely to just assume, perhaps without even ever thinking about it, that they are white.

I'm not white, and I assume that, at least for 99% of fantasy novels.

I think I assume it for fantasy because they tend to be set in generic Medieval Europe-land, and perhaps beause the novels are in English (which is a second language for me). [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

You know, you could do it like me. If not stated otherwise I just assume that the hero is too intelligent and tolerant to give even one stinky fart about races.
We´re all human, end.
We should leave the races where they belong, that means at animals and RTS games. (Especially since, thanks to sun studios, many "whites" have dark skin, too.....)

[Cadaveth]

Tirigon wrote...

DoneWithThisCompany wrote...

The fact of the matter is... there shouldn't be male characters hitting on you if you're playing a male character. That's disgusting.

Gay people have their own game, it's called dying of AIDS.

Can´t take you seriously, name says it all.

Obvious failtroll is tooo obvious......

O'rly? Some creativity wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Tirigon]

Cadaveth wrote...


O'rly? Some creativity wouldn't be a bad thing.

Creativity is very important for trolling.

But, the big problem is that trolls are usually idiots, so chances are they lack any creativity...........

[Siansonea]

Don't quote the trolls. In fact, it's wisest not to respond at all, to simply report them and be done with it. They thrive on attention, even (some would say especially) negative attention. The worst punishment you can inflict on a troll is to ignore them utterly.