2875 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Treatment of people based on the content of their character, not their race, beliefs, gender or sexuality is "new age nonsense"?
Because those are my values.

Please, you don't care about tolerance. I am tolerant. What you want is forced approval and special treatment for some over others.

Tolerant? You just admitted you think 19th century values are superior.
Values which include misogyny and intolerance by the way. And no, you are the one asking for a toggle. You are asking for special treatment because you can't tolerate the existence of bisexuals in your game.

I am happy with what we have, and approve of the fact the David Gaider stood up for it.

[Deadmac]

Russalka wrote...
Do gay people discriminate against heterosexuals by merely existing in real life then? Do you think there should be an on/off button for homosexual preferences as well?

That is life. Maybe there should be an 'on and off' option for both sexual preferences. If you would like to play the game with heterosexual options, you can turn the option on/off in the options screen. If you would like to play the game with homosexual options, you can turn the option on/off in the options screen.

Modifié par Deadmac, 24 mars 2011 - 11:16 .

[Russalka]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Postitive message? Is that what this is about? 

This game has "Murdering, thievery, money mongering, magic, consorting with demons", and you're talking about postitive messages about sexual liberty? 

Oh yes, name another enterntainment outlet that allows every sexuality to pursue their preferable romantic plot-line this way.

Modifié par Russalka, 24 mars 2011 - 11:17 .

[Galad22]

Deadmac wrote...
Before people question why religion is in this topic, "Dragon Age: Origins" and "Dragon Age II" is filled with religious philosophies. Even though they are not Christian philosophies, the core idea behind the Chantary is a twisted form of Christianity.

Now, even though I firmly believe people should do whatever they want, without my interference, just don't expect God to change his rules to accommodate sinful acts. Sure, Christianity should take steps to make everyone welcomed regardless about sexuality (so they can achieve redeption); however, it takes a confession of such sinful acts to get salvation. People have a problem with religion because they cannot meet God's criteria.

When it comes to the topic at hand, I think discriminating against anyone is a horrible idea. If BioWare is going to give homosexuals (gay and lesbians) options, they should also accommodate heterosexuals with 'on and off options' prior to playing the game. Anything else would be an act of discrimination against heterosexuals.

I really don't care what your God thinks.

I value equality and liberty.

Clearly your gods values and mine are not the same.

Look I apologise if I offend someones beliefs here, but I didn't bring bible to this conversation.

[Ryzaki]

Captain Jazz wrote...

moilami wrote...

I aks why you gay and bi people have to attack very aggressively on heteros who has done nothing to you. You have done it to me, you did it to OP here, and I have seen you doing it to other people too.

Can you please stop ad hominem attacks and focus on what the person has asked.

The OP asked for hetero romance. Why you begun to attack him?

My boyHawke is in a romance with Merrill.... so... how do you define hetero romance?

Apparently not only is it m/f but that f must never ever even in alternate universes dare dream of being with anything other than a man. 

[Russalka]

Deadmac wrote...

That is life.

Very well, but not in my world.

[moilami]

Captain Jazz wrote...

moilami wrote...

I aks why you gay and bi people have to attack very aggressively on heteros who has done nothing to you. You have done it to me, you did it to OP here, and I have seen you doing it to other people too.

Can you please stop ad hominem attacks and focus on what the person has asked.

The OP asked for hetero romance. Why you begun to attack him?

My boyHawke is in a romance with Merrill.... so... how do you define hetero romance?

It would be something like Alistair & Femwarden. Consistent in all playthoughs. Merrill appears to be bi-curious?

[Most Definitely Sane]

For the people using the Bible to support homophobia, you are aware it says that God loves everyone? It doesn't say "God loves everyone! Except homosexuals."
As a Christian, I personally don't disapprove of homosexual people romancing virtual characters who will never be real. Now, how about those devs? Pretty cool of them to do that, huh?

[AkiKishi]

Dr. Stephen J. Krune III wrote...

I once felt this way as well. I believed that if heterosexuals were merely forced to learn about homosexuals through television and video games, they would be cured of their homophobia. But it seems there are now more homophobes than ever, such that I had to go to my son's school and inform them that it was NOT OKAY to condemn his sexuality (which I had told him it was okay to express). You and I both know if he had expressed "straight" sexuality, no one would have said a thing about it, but his "effeminate" and "aggressive" behavior was unacceptable to the school administration--because of bigotry.

I am not saying he should be allowed to expose his body (although what children do in private is their own business), but to demonize an innocent comment like "Im gay" inspires absolute rage in me. They took a sweet, innocent declaration of sexuality and made it seem like a perversion. This will keep happening until we push back by requiring homosexuals to be represented everywhere so that homophobes learn to deal with it through repetition. This is something I have tried at my workplace, and in my experience explosure to "flamboyant" homosexuals reduces homophobia almost to nothing (indeed some of the homophobes came out as homosexuals later, when we instituted our "diversity raises"). We now call our happy hours "gay hours" to take advantage of both meanings of the word and to spread the message of tolerance.

The more you force something on someone they more they will resist.

Seriously if someone tried to force me into gay sex I'd kill them, no qualms no regrets. My partner is bisexual we have gay friends, but I don't want anything to do with being gay, ok , no thank you.

[Mad-Max90]

I would be fine with exclusive romances based on gender they already have one with Sebatien, that doesn't mean oh no they took him/her away from me I'm going to get mad and stomp on my tower of legos, it just means that the characters are more diverse and just like in real life I can't hit on every man,woman, and alien that looks my way, but that's my opinion and I'm sure somebody is going to disagree and type up something angry in response it's just so childish in these forums

[v_ware]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Treatment of people based on the content of their character, not their race, beliefs, gender or sexuality is "new age nonsense"?
Because those are my values.

Please, you don't care about tolerance. I am tolerant. What you want is forced approval and special treatment for some over others.

So homosexuals get special treatment? From you they do: with a special no ****** button!

You are just full of it. You even said tolerance didn't matter a few pages back. Rediculous.

[Monsteroids]

I don't want to attack anybody. I just like the set-up in Dragon Age 2 and the sneaky hate spiral that's coming out of this thread is starting to scare me.

I can understand the idea of having different love interests with specific orientations, but I don't think it'd be fair in a video game where a player may very well like the personality of an unobtainable character regardless of the player character's, player's, and said character's sexuality and orientation. Some people like specific situations out of exotic eroticism. Human sexuality is much more complicated than just gay, straight, and bi. I think because games can never encapsulate that complexity in a specific manner, they should cast a wide net and let people draw their own conclusions or ideas from the situations the get into.

I think it's a brilliant idea to leave that open. It's also been shown that there isn't a hard overhaul process to make these open characters.

Modifié par Monsteroids, 24 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[Speakeasy13]

JohnnyDollar wrote...

Russalka wrote...
I think the complaints over realism are rather trivial next to this being a positive message about sexual liberty.

Postitive message? Is that what this is about? 

This game has "Murdering, thievery, money mongering, magic, consorting with demons", and you're talking about postitive messages about sexual liberty? 

Why is that relevant? Unless you're equating sexual liberty with any of those things in morality or severity? What kind of logic is that?

[Sabariel]

moilami wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

moilami wrote...

I aks why you gay and bi people have to attack very aggressively on heteros who has done nothing to you. You have done it to me, you did it to OP here, and I have seen you doing it to other people too.

Can you please stop ad hominem attacks and focus on what the person has asked.

The OP asked for hetero romance. Why you begun to attack him?

My boyHawke is in a romance with Merrill.... so... how do you define hetero romance?

It would be something like Alistair & Femwarden. Consistent in all playthoughs. Merrill appears to be bi-curious?

Since when? Unless you actively pursue her Merrill doesn't show a preference for any gender. She's basically asexual if you don't romance her.

[The Angry One]

moilami wrote...

It would be something like Alistair & Femwarden. Consistent in all playthoughs. Merrill appears to be bi-curious?

This is irrelevant. If a male romances Merril, that is a heterosexual romance.
No matter Merril's preferences. The fact that Merril can look at another woman and fancy her does not change the fact that her taking a male lover is heterosexual.

[John Epler]

Once again, I feel it necessary to address the fact that I don't see the way we handle romances changing dramatically because of some people being uncomfortable with them. They are optional content, and it is rather easy to avoid them.

Is it a fair criticism to say that you did not feel that the romances offered were to your taste? Certainly. This is likely true of every game, and will remain true no matter what their orientation is. Some people just don't find anything to like in a particular personality type, and if they can't find someone that they do connect with, of course they'll feel a little shortchanged.

This is a vastly different argument from 'I feel uncomfortable that I was presented with same sex romance', however. The former is a matter of taste. The latter is a matter of believing that same sex romance must somehow be squirreled away, hidden from anyone who doesn't go to seek it. Some people are more forward than others - they initiate. I'm sure everyone here has gotten unwanted advances from one or both sexes before, regardless of their sexual preference.

If it's deemed appropriate for a particular character to attempt to initiate things, then they will intiiate things. This will undoubtedly make some people uncomfortable, and that's unfortunate, but this isn't an area that's likely to change for any reason other than 'it doesn't work mechanically/it doesn't make sense for the character'.

[Speakeasy13]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
So what, we should carry obsolete dogma into our videogames?

Obsolete dogma? Typical. It all boils down to "my morality is better than your morality" which is nonsense. Your the one who is unwilling to compromise, not I.

There's a difference between 'my morality is better than yours' and 'your morality is not better than mine'.

[Mad-Max90]

And yet another time I will ask to stop slandering mine and other people's religious beliefs, I'm not using them and neither should you, that is actually the opposite of keeping things civil your insulting not only my god but me as well and since I have done nothing to you or what ever you believe it's just plain rude, there are plenty of other sites to discuss world religions do NOT do it here it is not the place for such discussions

[Captain Jazz]

Deadmac wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Christianity, religion, can co-exist with all sexualities. Just let it happen.

Before people question why religion is in this topic, "Dragon Age: Origins" and "Dragon Age II" is filled with religious philosophies. Even though they are not Christian philosophies, the core idea behind the Chantary is a twisted form of Christianity.

Now, even though I firmly believe people should do whatever they want, without my interference, just don't expect God to change his rules to accommodate sinful acts. Sure, Christianity should take steps to make everyone welcomed regardless about sexuality (so they can achieve redeption); however, it takes a confession of such sinful acts to get salvation. People have a problem with religion because they cannot meet God's criteria.

When it comes to the topic at hand, I think discriminating against anyone is a horrible idea. If BioWare is going to give homosexuals (gay and lesbians) options, they should also accommodate heterosexuals with 'on and off options' prior to playing the game. Anything else would be an act of discrimination against heterosexuals.

The relgions in the dragon age games are fictional, although they have some fairly clear roots. Discussion of them makes sense. Bringing real world religions and related judgements into this discussion is just bringing needless additional arguments in.
Please?

[Inquisitor Recon]

The Angry One wrote...
Tolerant? You just admitted you think 19th century values are superior.
Values which include misogyny and intolerance by the way. And no, you are the one asking for a toggle. You are asking for special treatment because you can't tolerate the existence of bisexuals in your game.

I am happy with what we have, and approve of the fact the David Gaider stood up for it.

You're right I think the values most of my country still have are better than whatever you could offer. You hide behind words like "equality" and "justice" while demanding people treat you special, demanding society rewrite its laws and silence those voices of dissent. You think you are entitled to things even as minor as gay romances in a video game, and want those who don't agree to be punished. You trash Christianity and other religions as a whole and claim the moral high-ground when you have nothing but meaningless words to offer.

Modifié par ReconTeam, 24 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[The Angry One]

JohnEpler wrote...

This is a vastly different argument from 'I feel uncomfortable that I was presented with same sex romance', however. The former is a matter of taste. The latter is a matter of believing that same sex romance must somehow be squirreled away, hidden from anyone who doesn't go to seek it. Some people are more forward than others - they initiate. I'm sure everyone here has gotten unwanted advances from one or both sexes before, regardless of their sexual preference.

Indeed, and with Anders I feel it's perfectly within his character to do such a thing as said before.
People aren't required to like this. There are things within the events of the game that characters will do that I dislike, that I will downright hate. That doesn't mean these things must be removed to not offend me.

[Deadmac]

JohnEpler wrote...

Once again, I feel it necessary to address the fact that I don't see the way we handle romances changing dramatically because of some people being uncomfortable with them. They are optional content, and it is rather easy to avoid them.

What is rather funny is... If people have a problem with these features, they also have the option to not buy the game.

Now, I call that optional content.

Avoid buying the game entirely is easier. Why put yourself into this position in the first place?

Modifié par Deadmac, 24 mars 2011 - 11:28 .

[moilami]

The Angry One wrote...

moilami wrote...

It would be something like Alistair & Femwarden. Consistent in all playthoughs. Merrill appears to be bi-curious?

This is irrelevant. If a male romances Merril, that is a heterosexual romance.
No matter Merril's preferences. The fact that Merril can look at another woman and fancy her does not change the fact that her taking a male lover is heterosexual.

It is irrelevant if you don't think about how illogical it is.

Now Merril is not fully defined character. She is either ****** or hetero depending on your gender variable. That is your gender defines Merrill - unless she is bi-curious.

[AkiKishi]

JohnEpler wrote...

Once again, I feel it necessary to address the fact that I don't see the way we handle romances changing dramatically because of some people being uncomfortable with them. They are optional content, and it is rather easy to avoid them.

Is it a fair criticism to say that you did not feel that the romances offered were to your taste? Certainly. This is likely true of every game, and will remain true no matter what their orientation is. Some people just don't find anything to like in a particular personality type, and if they can't find someone that they do connect with, of course they'll feel a little shortchanged.

This is a vastly different argument from 'I feel uncomfortable that I was presented with same sex romance', however. The former is a matter of taste. The latter is a matter of believing that same sex romance must somehow be squirreled away, hidden from anyone who doesn't go to seek it. Some people are more forward than others - they initiate. I'm sure everyone here has gotten unwanted advances from one or both sexes before, regardless of their sexual preference.

If it's deemed appropriate for a particular character to attempt to initiate things, then they will intiiate things. This will undoubtedly make some people uncomfortable, and that's unfortunate, but this isn't an area that's likely to change for any reason other than 'it doesn't work mechanically/it doesn't make sense for the character'.

Is everyone is bi going to be the new Bioware benchmark ? Or just in DA ?

I don't really have any problem with this, but you should then give the character a number of ways to react, IE not bind the NPC to the story so that you are forced to take them along anyway.

Even better don't make any LI's integrel to the main story because that is the only way they can be ignored.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 mars 2011 - 11:26 .

[mesmerizedish]

moilami wrote...

It is irrelevant if you don't think about how illogical it is.

Now Merril is not fully defined character. She is either ****** or hetero depending on your gender variable. That is your gender defines Merrill - unless she is bi-curious.

What orientation was Orsino? Or Varric?

OMZ THEY'RE NOT FULLY DEFINED! THE GAME SUXXORZ!