2875 réponses à ce sujet

[Inquisitor Recon]

Russalka wrote...
I really doubt Bioware was forced into anything.

My wording could have been better there. My point was that aspect of the gay community demands such content and has accuzed Bioware of countless offenses. Just look at the ME2 thread. They take Bioware's good will and then demand more.

[City6]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
You never answered why simply denying Anders isn't enough for you.

What's "enough" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

If my morality includes equal rights for women and bisexuals regardless of belief and yours doesn't, then mine is better.

No it isn't. In fact I support equal rights and my country already provides those. But when your idea of "rights" goes into forcing companies to include gay romance options if they includes straight ones, something is seriously wrong.

Again, being treated equally is to be treated differently?

Except it isn't equally, you want to be treated specially. You're demanding representation else (insert group here) is guility of some imagined offense. Games don't need quotas.

And your argument makes no sense. Are heterosexual relationships being excluded? No. You have no point, you are simply making posts full of hostile rambling.

My point is that Bioware shouldn't have wasted the effort on such a selfish bunch, that making everybody bisexual degrades the quality of the game, and you're not entitled to anything.

By the way, Mass Effect 2 had no lesbian romances on release (no, what's-her-face dancer girl doesn't count) and still has no gay romances.
I dealt with it, yo.

Good then. But don't go crying about how Bioware is discriminating or anything like that.

You're coming at this entirely with no data. Bioware have already stated that this wasn't just a moral decision, it was based on real game data (ie how many people took up previous same sex romances).

They have the numbers, you don't. And those numbers clearly said there was a significant demand for this.

It's pretty easy to tell this by just looking at the forums in a "normal" time. 3/4s of the Romance threads are about same sex romance.

What ever the numbers in the real world, in the Bioware rpg demographic, there's clearly an enormous demand.


So if you claim you're arguing resources and not just "I don't like gay people", then logically you support Bioware's decision, seeing as they did it based on the uptake numbers of pervious games.

[Monsteroids]

When does it end?

Modifié par Monsteroids, 25 mars 2011 - 12:07 .

[1Nosphorus1]

The Angry One wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

I think all of this could've been avoided, if the option was that Anders didn't gain rival points if you shot him down.

I'm fine with them being in the game, I don't use them myself but I must say that when Anders came on to me, I had the option of Flirt/Flirt/NO(+15 Rivalry).

If there were no Rivalry gain, I'd of been fine with this, it just narcked me a bit having to suffer for my orientation.

Rivalry points aren't a punishment. You're only "suffering" in your own mind.

Since some people don't recieve any standing change and some people recieve friendship points, my guess is that the rejection itself is not the chief determinant at work.

Perhaps it was a bad idea to make friendship blue and rivalry red. Some people seem hardcoded to believe that's a distinction between good and bad.

Perhaps it wasn't a bad idea at all, but maybe a bad idea implementing 3 choices, 2 of which go the way that I wouldn't want it to, and the third whilst refusing his advances, ends up with it hindering my progress.

My aim was to increase his friendship as quickly as possible, the fact that I lost a massive -15 for simply shooting him down is indeed suffering, it hinders my goals as it has done to others, heck they even made a comic out of it.

I'm glad the option is there for you, but no other party member done this to me and made me "suffer" like Anders did, I'm not even sure that's the same Anders from Awakening, yes he's possessed and whatnot but his views on pretty much, everything...it's such a 180... they could've just had some random apostate.

[Onyx Jaguar]

that 15 to rivarly is nothing, can be overcome in no time

[The Angry One]

ReconTeam wrote...

Russalka wrote...
I really doubt Bioware was forced into anything.

My wording could have been better there. My point was that aspect of the gay community demands such content and has accuzed Bioware of countless offenses. Just look at the ME2 thread. They take Bioware's good will and then demand more.

Yes, some people make threads where they express the desire to see more bisexual options in ME2.
So what? Why do they not have the right to speak their mind on that? You're certainly expressing your right to speak your mind - the difference is you just want to pretend something doesn't exist because it bothers you that much.

You also fail to consider that BioWare added 4 bisexual romances not because of pressure, not because of threads asking why Alistair isn't bi but because it was appropriate given the characters involved.
You assume it's because of political correctness and "guilt". That doesn't make it so.

[Monsteroids]

It's funny that you would like the personality of a character changed for your own gameplay benefit. The -15 comes because that's how Anders is. Needy, impulsive, and kind of campy.

[Russalka]

ReconTeam wrote...
My wording could have been better there. My point was that aspect of the gay community demands such content and has accuzed Bioware of countless offenses. Just look at the ME2 thread. They take Bioware's good will and then demand more.

I think the problem people had with homosexuality and the Mass Effect series was the poor and hypocritical way they explained Shepard's preferences, not whether he actually is a gay male or not.

Personally, I am fine with Shepard being a straight male and a discount lesbian woman, I wish they were not so obvious about it being a fan service and mask it with poor explanations. Maybe Mark Vanderloo did not wish to see his face used in ways like that, that is... fine, I suppose.

[Ryzaki]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Hey now, don't go around implying I am stupid, that isn't very nice. It lowers my faith in human benevolence.


DA 2, from portions I played, had alot of dialogue wheel ambiguities where characters reacted in bizarre ways that were not indicated either by icons or the sometimes inaccurate paraphrasing. I have also heard from other players of this. I have nothing against same sex romances between characters and was just trying to play devils advocate for people who might end up being forced into such scenarios where the dialogue wheel fails. Creating a strawman arguement out of misinterpretation and labeling me as stupid won't win your arguements for you and it's not very nice.

Sorry but that's bull. 

I have done both gay romances multiple times. 

The only way to flirt (have Hawke flirt at least  some of the helpful dialogue options in my mind were a little too helpful sounding *looks at Anders convo*) / sleep/kiss with a character was to pick the choice with a GIANT HEART GLOWING. 

There's no way getting around that .There is no way of getting around that at all. You could only start a romance with the giant glowing heart. 

Unless you're going to tell me you don't understand the common meaning of a giant glowing heart. Which you probably should've picked up afterpicking it once. 

So unless your telling me you don't understand what a heart means (which you would've found out by reading the manual. Or heck even using common observation skills. ) there's no way you were forced ito a romace. 

None. 

You think I'm mean fine. But that's very ignorant of you not to know understand what a heart icon means.

And ignorant =/= stupid before anyone gets upset. Just means you aren't knowledgeable about something. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 12:14 .

[Dr. Stephen J. Krune III]

What some are missing is that these games offer an excellent opportunity to socially disadvantaged video gamers to experience the full gamete of sexuality. We have all heard of the growing problem of rampant bullycide, where young gays are taunted to the point of insanity and death by bigots. In fact this happens daily, you just aren't told about each case. Maybe if some of these young gays had the option to spend hours and hours having video game sex with aliens and hobbits, these "bullycides" as I call them would be averted. So this isn't just about your preferences, bigots--this is about saving human lives!

The truth is, if you value your enjoyment of a video game over some gay teenager's life, you are a monster and don't deserve life, bigot. I would go so far as to say that if you reject a homosexual advance from someone you care deeply about, that in itself makes you a suspected homophobe. Since when is love something that should disgust you? I believe this is a logically perfect argument. Those who don't think so should be banned from this forum.

[Inquisitor Recon]

The Angry One wrote...
Because?

Because it improves the game for some.

Nobody forced anyone.

Just went over that in a previous post.

Isn't that what you're doing? You're demanding a feature just for you, or people like me and BioWare itself are guilty of oppressing you.

Actually I'm not demanding this option, I merely intend to point out how hypocritical you are to oppose it.

It is not a waste. Many enjoy it. You don't. Therefore it's a waste?

I think it is a waste. You don't. So?

It degrades it in your opinion. As to why you have that opinion I'll leave for everyone to decide.

I get it, you think I am a big bad homophobe. I really don't care because you have watered down that term to the point where it is meaningless.

Dude I'm not the one crying here.

Sorry but yes, you are. When "threatened" by said option you start whining about it would be "offensive" and "promote homophobes."

[Dr. Stephen J. Krune III]

What some are missing is that these games offer an excellent opportunity to socially disadvantaged video gamers to experience the full gamete of sexuality. We have all heard of the growing problem of rampant bullycide, where young gays are taunted to the point of insanity and death by bigots. In fact this happens daily, you just aren't told about each case. Maybe if some of these young gays had the option to spend hours and hours having video game sex with aliens and hobbits, these "bullycides" as I call them would be averted. So this isn't just about your preferences, bigots--this is about saving human lives!
The truth is, if you value your enjoyment of a video game over some gay teenager's life, you are a monster and don't deserve life, bigot. I would go so far as to say that if you reject a homosexual advance from someone you care deeply about, that in itself makes you a suspected homophobe. Since when is love something that should disgust you? I believe this is a logically perfect argument. Those who don't think so should be banned from this forum.

[solstickan]

ReconTeam wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
You never answered why simply denying Anders isn't enough for you.

What's "enough" doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.

If my morality includes equal rights for women and bisexuals regardless of belief and yours doesn't, then mine is better.

No it isn't. In fact I support equal rights and my country already provides those. But when your idea of "rights" goes into forcing companies to include gay romance options if they includes straight ones, something is seriously wrong.

Again, being treated equally is to be treated differently?

Except it isn't equally, you want to be treated specially. You're demanding representation else (insert group here) is guility of some imagined offense. Games don't need quotas.

And your argument makes no sense. Are heterosexual relationships being excluded? No. You have no point, you are simply making posts full of hostile rambling.

My point is that Bioware shouldn't have wasted the effort on such a selfish bunch, that making everybody bisexual degrades the quality of the game, and you're not entitled to anything.

By the way, Mass Effect 2 had no lesbian romances on release (no, what's-her-face dancer girl doesn't count) and still has no gay romances.
I dealt with it, yo.

Good then. But don't go crying about how Bioware is discriminating or anything like that.

I know I am talking to deaf ears right now, but I am going to try anyway. Nobody here has ever claimed to have forced BioWare into making all LIs bi. Sure, a lot of people have wanted it, but in the end, the decision to implement the option to choose same-sex romances in the game was made by BioWare. This is their game and they are fully entitled to do whatever they wish with it. 

Secondly, if you read the post by Epler you would know by now that the cost for adding a few extra dialogs to record was virtually non-existant. You have your straight romance options, those who want it have the option to go gay. What is the problem? No matter how much you cry about it the fact remains that even if none were bi the game would still have the same number of straight LIs. 

[Blastback]

Ryzaki wrote...

Blastback wrote...
Well, yes, and no.  I'm building a friendship with Anders and suddenly he comes on to me.  I turn him down.  He gets his feelings hurt, and the friendship score drops.  If a player was delibratly trying to raise the friendship score, then yeah that kind of is a penelty.

My problem on the other hand is that he gets his feelings hurt by me.  And thus I felt like a jerk.  I'm overly sensetive like that.

Then you should know Blastback that Anders is jealous, clingy and always smitten with Hawke. So of course he was going to be bitter about you turning him down. 

PS. You can avoid that by picking the snarky/aggressive options instead of being Mr. Nice Guy. 
Someone apparently wants Mr. Nice Guy for once. 

Of course they do.  I'm just so darn lovable.

Or were you talking about me wanting to be Mr. Nice Guy?

[Mad-Max90]

Actually you can be "forced" with Anders, I didn't pick any hearts yet he hit on me, I turned him down for some rivalry points, but it's no biggie

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Hey now, don't go around implying I am stupid, that isn't very nice. It lowers my faith in human benevolence.


DA 2, from portions I played, had alot of dialogue wheel ambiguities where characters reacted in bizarre ways that were not indicated either by icons or the sometimes inaccurate paraphrasing. I have also heard from other players of this. I have nothing against same sex romances between characters and was just trying to play devils advocate for people who might end up being forced into such scenarios where the dialogue wheel fails. Creating a strawman arguement out of misinterpretation and labeling me as stupid won't win your arguements for you and it's not very nice.

Sorry but that's bull. 

I have done both gay romances multiple times. 

The only way to flirt (have Hawke flirt at least  some of the helpful dialogue options in my mind were a little too helpful sounding *looks at Anders convo*) / sleep/kiss with a character was to pick the choice with a GIANT HEART GLOWING. 

There's no way getting around that .There is no way of getting around that at all. You could only start a romance with the giant glowing heart. 

Unless you're going to tell me you don't understand the common meaning of a giant glowing heart. Which you probably should've picked up afterpicking it once. 

So unless your telling me you don't understand what a heart means (which you would've found out by reading the manual. Or heck even using common observation skills. ) there's no way you were forced ito a romace. 

None. 

You think I'm mean fine. But that's very ignorant of you not to know understand what a heart icon means.

Yeah... the quote is messed, because I didn't say that

[John Epler]

ReconTeam wrote...

Russalka wrote...
I really doubt Bioware was forced into anything.

My wording could have been better there. My point was that aspect of the gay community demands such content and has accuzed Bioware of countless offenses. Just look at the ME2 thread. They take Bioware's good will and then demand more.

To echo the statement David made, it's very easy to see it as 'demanding' when you are not a member of the particular group in question. Privilege is a real thing, and it's quite easy (and I say this as a member of the dominant privileged group) to see people requesting that they are represented equally as 'oh, they're -demanding- special treatment. -I- never demand special treatment.' And of course, that misses the fact that you don't have to demand special treatment because you are already the majority group.

I don't see a request that a particular group be represented fairly as anyone 'demanding' anything. Not every product is going to contain that sort of content, that's true, and sometimes that's due to the demands of the narrative or product in question, but that still shouldn't stop them from requesting a more equal representation in popular media. Because, really, they aren't represented in such, not nearly to the extent that other groups are.

It's not entitlement or demanding, it's merely a wish that the creators of such content acknowledge that they exist, and that there are more people playing their games than the prevailing demographic. I can go to any number of games out there and find a protagonist who I can easily identify with because they are of the same gender, ethnicity and sexual orientation as I am. Why shouldn't they be allowed to ask for that same opportunity without being accused of pushing anything on anyone?

Modifié par JohnEpler, 25 mars 2011 - 12:18 .

[JamieCOTC]

I have a feeling that the characters were like the maps, recycled. Therefore in one playthough you can be straight, the next bi, the next gay, etc. The only problem I had w/ it was (I played LadyHawke) was that her response to Anders' come on was - yes, yes, go to hell. I would have preferred a middle ground, like we got w/ Fenris. Anders could still blow up at her just for the lack of interest. That actually would have been cool. Other than that, I had no real problem w/ it.

[Ryzaki]

Sabariel wrote...

Yeah... the quote is messed, because I didn't say that

LMAO so sorry! I'll fix it. 

[moilami]

Dr. Stephen J. Krune III wrote...

What some are missing is that these games offer an excellent opportunity to socially disadvantaged video gamers to experience the full gamete of sexuality. We have all heard of the growing problem of rampant bullycide, where young gays are taunted to the point of insanity and death by bigots. In fact this happens daily, you just aren't told about each case. Maybe if some of these young gays had the option to spend hours and hours having video game sex with aliens and hobbits, these "bullycides" as I call them would be averted. So this isn't just about your preferences, bigots--this is about saving human lives!

The truth is, if you value your enjoyment of a video game over some gay teenager's life, you are a monster and don't deserve life, bigot. I would go so far as to say that if you reject a homosexual advance from someone you care deeply about, that in itself makes you a suspected homophobe. Since when is love something that should disgust you? I believe this is a logically perfect argument. Those who don't think so should be banned from this forum.

I am self convinced homophobe.

Shoot me. Ban me. Steal my games.

[Sabariel]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

I think all of this could've been avoided, if the option was that Anders didn't gain rival points if you shot him down.

I'm fine with them being in the game, I don't use them myself but I must say that when Anders came on to me, I had the option of Flirt/Flirt/NO(+15 Rivalry).

If there were no Rivalry gain, I'd of been fine with this, it just narcked me a bit having to suffer for my orientation.

Rivalry points aren't a punishment. You're only "suffering" in your own mind.

Since some people don't recieve any standing change and some people recieve friendship points, my guess is that the rejection itself is not the chief determinant at work.

Perhaps it was a bad idea to make friendship blue and rivalry red. Some people seem hardcoded to believe that's a distinction between good and bad.

Perhaps it wasn't a bad idea at all, but maybe a bad idea implementing 3 choices, 2 of which go the way that I wouldn't want it to, and the third whilst refusing his advances, ends up with it hindering my progress.

My aim was to increase his friendship as quickly as possible, the fact that I lost a massive -15 for simply shooting him down is indeed suffering, it hinders my goals as it has done to others, heck they even made a comic out of it.

I'm glad the option is there for you, but no other party member done this to me and made me "suffer" like Anders did, I'm not even sure that's the same Anders from Awakening, yes he's possessed and whatnot but his views on pretty much, everything...it's such a 180... they could've just had some random apostate.

I think I should make this my sig:

However, if you don't want rivlary points (not a big deal anyway
since you can gain friend points back pretty easily) pick the "neutral
heart" (middle slot). Don't pick any hearts after that. I've done
this with both a female and male Hawke. No rivalry gain, no ghey
relationship will happen. Both female and male Hawke were friends with
Anders.  Get out the confetti and balloons.

[johook213]

I have to agree that DA:O handled the same-sex romances better. For example, it made a lot of sense for Zevran to be bi, based on his personality, lifestyle, and background. It made sense for Alistair to be straight. It fit his personality and his character. 

However, I do remember a huge uproar over "it's not fair that i can't romance every romanceable character just because of my sexuality". I remember so many disappointed that Alistair was only romanceable by female wardens. I have realized now from these Dragon Age forums, that you will NEVER please everyone. It's a cold, hard fact. Someone will always be disappointed with something... no matter what you do, what you tweak, or what you change.

I enjoy Dragon Age 2 for what it is. Honestly, the way some people on these boards have nitpicked at this game, I can't imagine how they find enjoyment out of anything in life. lol

Modifié par johook213, 25 mars 2011 - 12:16 .

[Ryzaki]

Blastback wrote..

Of course they do.  I'm just so darn lovable.

Or were you talking about me wanting to be Mr. Nice Guy?

LOL. 

Nah I meant the characters.  

I have to say snarky Hawke is my canon. Too much fun. 

[The Angry One]

ReconTeam wrote...

Because it improves the game for some.

Don't
be obtuse. Explain why you must completely eliminate even the very
concept of bisexuality from the game world to be comfortable.

Actually I'm not demanding this option, I merely intend to point out how hypocritical you are to oppose it.

I oppose it because you already have the option, what you want is over the top.

I think it is a waste. You don't. So?

So don't declare it as such.

I
get it, you think I am a big bad homophobe. I really don't care because
you have watered down that term to the point where it is meaningless.

I didn't say that now, did I.
The fact is you present no logical reason as to why it degrades anything, and you have recieved multiple explanations as to why it's perfectly reasonable for these 4 characters to be bi.

Sorry
but yes, you are. When "threatened" by said option you start whining
about it would be "offensive" and "promote homophobes."

I say any option that exists to completely remove the idea from the game is suspect at least, when you can simply rebuke Anders once and move on. Again, why is that such a problem?

[Sabariel]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Yeah... the quote is messed, because I didn't say that

LMAO so sorry! I'll fix it. 

S'okay