2875 réponses à ce sujet

[Tommy6860]

moilami wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

PlumPaul82393 wrote...

ms_sunlight wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

Actually, if I might put my own bi-2 cents in; does it matter if you are hit on by a gay person? Is it not equally repulsive to be hit on by a really unattractive member of the opposite sex? Like, a woman who is dumb as bread and smells bad? Wouldn't that be terrible too? Where is the difference?

I think it comes down to not being attracted at all to the person hitting on you. The mental image of having sex with them makes you go "EEEEWWWW!!!" - and that's the whole issue. Or am I wrong?

edit: typos. Again.

It always seems to be straight males who make this complaint.  I think it's due to the sexist nature of our society; as a female I am so used to being hit on almost indiscriminately by men (although it happens less now I am a little older thankfully!) that being hit on by one more person I don't fancy is neither here nor there.

Straight guys who have a big freak out at the idea of another guy expressing an interest - and doing so verbally and respectfully - need to get over themselves.

What does that have to do with the fact that a gay romance with Anders is forced on you, unless you want to A:skip content in the game (not talking to him) B:Act like a homophobe to anders and be a jerk no neutral option or a thanks but no thanks option. Again if you want to rant on what people would do in a situation other than the one being discussed do that somewhere else.

Uh... Anders behaves in exactly the same way in the romance with fem!Hawke. Yet I hear no shouting from the gals. I just clicked a heart because I wanted to be nice, closed my earlids for the resulting dialogue, and then I never klicked a heart again. Problem solved. No romance with Anders. Klicking one heart in act 1 doesn't lock your character in a romance with him.
Just flirt back this one time. It's harmless. He won't grope your Hawke's manly bits, I promise.

For a hetero it is two different things to being hit by a male or female. Bis maybe don't understand this. However Oghren may help them to understand. I don't hold my breath though.

In workplaces hitting people can be considered to be sexual harassment. I am sure there is some grounds and valid reasoning in that.

(Sup with English language? Hitting is seducing, shooting is photographing. Why use words which have totally different violent meaning?)

Saying that bisexual folk (maybe) don't undeerstand the situation of one end of the spectrum to the other is no less a generalization. People can think and rationlize (hopfully), and therefore understand as well.

[sleepyowlet]

Lord Sullivan wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

[Snip]...

The phrase is "to hit on", I believe. As to why? No idea.
Yeah, but there is a difference in some harmless flirting and harassment. As for Anders coming on a bit too strongly... he does it to both male and female Hawke. Yes, it's a bad situation. But it's good writing, because it's totally in character for needy DA2!Anders. And the only way you can get those needy types of your back (no matter if they are male or female), is to tell them "NO." very clearly. There is no diplomatic option in that case. I'm speaking from experience.
And no, they never take it well either. But so what? So this gains you a few rivalry points. Are you role-playing your character or metagaming?

You may have a bit of a point about "There is no diplomatic option" but the question is... should there have been one at the very least?

In NWN OC, at some point Grimgnaw's tale include him telling you about a child he had to gut for his Circle's trial, one of the dialog options was " you're a sick man Grimgnaw" and that is obviously the line I chose because that his how I am moraly, but had there been only say... 3 choices like...

1- They make you kill baby children to join your circle?... Hiiiii HAAAAaaaa! when can I join?
2- So they make you kill little children... so what?
3- So what happened next?

I'd probably would have found that disturbing. Now I'm not comparing "Gays" with spycho gutting baby murderers,
just that I would definitly would have stood there thinking how I would have prefered a more proper dialog option to RP what I really wanted and would of probably thought that the writer is one sick puppy.

Mind that doesn't change much whatvever dialog you chose on that particular tale from Grimgnaw but, just to kind of put things in perspective.

And here we have the underlying problem: the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the limited response options. It's like that thorough the game. I gave up trying to roleplay Hawke after getting to Kirkwall.

[slimgrin]

Wow. When I read that article, it's as if Gaider typed it up and sent it to the escapist.

[PlumPaul93]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

[Snip]...

The phrase is "to hit on", I believe. As to why? No idea.
Yeah, but there is a difference in some harmless flirting and harassment. As for Anders coming on a bit too strongly... he does it to both male and female Hawke. Yes, it's a bad situation. But it's good writing, because it's totally in character for needy DA2!Anders. And the only way you can get those needy types of your back (no matter if they are male or female), is to tell them "NO." very clearly. There is no diplomatic option in that case. I'm speaking from experience.
And no, they never take it well either. But so what? So this gains you a few rivalry points. Are you role-playing your character or metagaming?

You may have a bit of a point about "There is no diplomatic option" but the question is... should there have been one at the very least?

In NWN OC, at some point Grimgnaw's tale include him telling you about a child he had to gut for his Circle's trial, one of the dialog options was " you're a sick man Grimgnaw" and that is obviously the line I chose because that his how I am moraly, but had there been only say... 3 choices like...

1- They make you kill baby children to join your circle?... Hiiiii HAAAAaaaa! when can I join?
2- So they make you kill little children... so what?
3- So what happened next?

I'd probably would have found that disturbing. Now I'm not comparing "Gays" with spycho gutting baby murderers,
just that I would definitly would have stood there thinking how I would have prefered a more proper dialog option to RP what I really wanted and would of probably thought that the writer is one sick puppy.

Mind that doesn't change much whatvever dialog you chose on that particular tale from Grimgnaw but, just to kind of put things in perspective.

And here we have the underlying problem: the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the limited response options. It's like that thorough the game. I gave up trying to roleplay Hawke after getting to Kirkwall.

Yeah that probably is the problem most people probably wouldn't have an issue regarding anders if they could actually say what your hawke would say instead of: romancing or telling off anders.

[Tommy6860]

moilami wrote...

Artoz96 wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Artoz96 wrote...

You like all being bi? Ok. But I want a good fantasy game. I dont want to think that this guy that covers me is gay. I cant feel like he is my close friend or brother in arms becouse of he is gay and may think that I am found of him.

I dont against gay characters, it was ok with Zevran cause I could easely avoid him. But in DA2 the only 2h warrior is Fenris and the only healer is Anders.

And you are right we dont have choise in our feelings and that is why I dont want gay to hit on me.

what is this i dont even

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but this is homophobia and prejudice.

Otherwise, you'd have to be uncomfortable with being around female characters that you aren't interested in either, since one apparently can't be a "close friend or sister in arms" if she might possibly have feelings for you.

No need to sorry, If I need to fu... with gay so that you consider me tolerate person, than no, I am a homophob. By the way, tell me please, doctor, what is it "homophobia"? Not long ago thougnt that gay person is sick.  Now nobody think so. Now we have another situation when the person that dont like gays is sick.  Dont you thing it quite... wrong?

Tell me doc, so i dont like gays and dont want them to deal with me... what harm i dealt to them by this? How I insult gay person?

Exactly. This whole thing is so sick and absurd I don't remember seeing anything comparable.

People say you have to be fine with gays advancing on you and trying to use your exit only tube, else you are being yelled hard of being a homophobic. So you have to prove you are not a homophobic by letting people hit you at will and use your exit only tube.

If you want to say to those people "get lost scum" one person here begun to have fantasies how he would kill you if you would do it again when asked to not do it again.

WTF?

It seems you are mixing political correctness with simple human nature. You tend to harp on having to be PC as to demonize the nature of it all. Yet while I hang out with some of my male friends and they make unruly gestures at their female counterparts, yet somehow that can be overlooked; Oh the irony of it all.

[Tommy6860]

sleepyowlet wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

[Snip]...

The phrase is "to hit on", I believe. As to why? No idea.
Yeah, but there is a difference in some harmless flirting and harassment. As for Anders coming on a bit too strongly... he does it to both male and female Hawke. Yes, it's a bad situation. But it's good writing, because it's totally in character for needy DA2!Anders. And the only way you can get those needy types of your back (no matter if they are male or female), is to tell them "NO." very clearly. There is no diplomatic option in that case. I'm speaking from experience.
And no, they never take it well either. But so what? So this gains you a few rivalry points. Are you role-playing your character or metagaming?

You may have a bit of a point about "There is no diplomatic option" but the question is... should there have been one at the very least?

In NWN OC, at some point Grimgnaw's tale include him telling you about a child he had to gut for his Circle's trial, one of the dialog options was " you're a sick man Grimgnaw" and that is obviously the line I chose because that his how I am moraly, but had there been only say... 3 choices like...

1- They make you kill baby children to join your circle?... Hiiiii HAAAAaaaa! when can I join?
2- So they make you kill little children... so what?
3- So what happened next?

I'd probably would have found that disturbing. Now I'm not comparing "Gays" with spycho gutting baby murderers,
just that I would definitly would have stood there thinking how I would have prefered a more proper dialog option to RP what I really wanted and would of probably thought that the writer is one sick puppy.

Mind that doesn't change much whatvever dialog you chose on that particular tale from Grimgnaw but, just to kind of put things in perspective.

And here we have the underlying problem: the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the limited response options. It's like that thorough the game. I gave up trying to roleplay Hawke after getting to Kirkwall.

But your can *roll*play Hawke if you're a rogue

Modifié par Tommy6860, 25 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[JediMB]

sleepyowlet wrote...

And here we have the underlying problem: the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the limited response options. It's like that thorough the game. I gave up trying to roleplay Hawke after getting to Kirkwall.

I think it would help a lot if they dropped the idea that having only three dialogue choices should be the default state. I mean... why not four? The dialogue wheel in itself isn't bad, but how it is utilized is far from optimal, despite the huge step up from how it was used in ME2.

[moilami]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Caralampio wrote...

I find something disturbing in social trends. If a gay person feels something is offensive, he/she gets all the attention and support. However, if a straight person finds something offensive, he/she is told to eat ****e. Shouldn't the goal be to offend no one? Don't the opinions of straight people count for anything unless they blandly agree with the gay point of view?

No one has the right to *not* be offended, it just happenes no matter. But when someone finds offense due to one's orientation, taht isn't due to being offended, but rather to being (mostly) conditioned in upbringing through societal stereotypes (an dmany times thorugh religious upbringing).

Getting hit by Anders in a way that you can't weasel out of is disturbing for many people. Especially those that liked Anders' character in a non-sexual way in Awakening. "Accept my advances or else". You don't get that with any of the women. In fact they're quite hard to romance.

Yet in the same breath, I dare take a chance and say you would find no issue playing a female, and getting hit on by a female. I have been hit on quite a few times in my life by gay men, I simply tell them that I am happily married (of which I really am) and move on. I take no offense because they do not know who I am and they cannot help who they are. it is no different than if I hit on a married woman I thought wasn't married. I find attraction to women normal, just like homosexuals of either gender find their attractions normal, it is all the same to me and relative. I look at it in the same light as I would being straight. 

If I play a female (which I don't except in Tomb Raider or if I play a nasty psychopathic or nude run etc.) and get hit by a female then that is of course not a problem because I don't have problems being hit by females (except when I have to chose between two pixel dolls).

If gays hit me in real (which has happened) I politely reject them, and if they keep doing it I begin to find it increasingly offending and disturbing.

I can say I have every time been more polite than many women has been to men who has tried to hit them. However I realize too that I would had been able to end the sexual harassment by using tactics women use, that is be very verbal and rude.

[Caralampio]

The confusing thing about the Anders "hit" is that actually one of the choices appears to be an opt-out, but you still get -15. Maybe it was intended as a zero effect choice, but it's a glitch? And now they can't fix it because it would seem like they're giving in...

[Russalka]

Homosexual people are everywhere, homosexual people are flirtatious. Just like heterosexual people.

Get over it.

Your personal experiences in the world do not mean that every single gay person is like that. Anders has to be rejected, fine. It could happen in real life.

Wanting to shield oneself from all the gayness of the world is naive. It is like trying to shield oneself from any sexuality, a certain skin colour or a whole gender. Just say no, if people are still persistent, it is their problem, not the problem of a whole group.

Modifié par Russalka, 25 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[catabuca]

JediMB wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

And here we have the underlying problem: the dialogue wheel, the paraphrasing, and the limited response options. It's like that thorough the game. I gave up trying to roleplay Hawke after getting to Kirkwall.

I think it would help a lot if they dropped the idea that having only three dialogue choices should be the default state. I mean... why not four? The dialogue wheel in itself isn't bad, but how it is utilized is far from optimal, despite the huge step up from how it was used in ME2.

I expect this will be something that will continue to be improved upon in future games from both franchises. I far prefer the wheel to the lines of dialogue from DAO, and I far prefer DA2's wheel with its icons to ME's wheel. And sometimes there were more than 3 choices, for example when there was a 'special' (star) option available on the left. They have to find a balance between keeping the choices relatively simple (to both avoid clutter and avoid wildly deviating and branching stories that would be difficult to scrip in one game) and providing some sort of choice to the player. They're moving in the right direction, and I think we'd all do well to remember these things evolve over time and we can't expect everything to be the pinnacle of perfection in every game. They experiment, try things out, and that should be supported.

The subject of Anders and that one solitary conversation with the 2 hearts and the 1 broken heart is a bit of a strawman. It's being used by some as a reason to say there shouldn't be bisexual characters in the game, and not as a way to merely talk about the way the friendship/rivalry system works, or the way the dialogue wheel works. If there had been a neutral option I suspect something else would have reared its ugly head as the evil spectre of gayness to complain about. As many have pointed out, nobody seems to be complaining with as much vigour about a female Hawke who accrues the same rivalry points for clicking the broken heart. This is about not wanting to see a gay character, pure and simple.

Incidentally, or not, I am currently playing as a male Hawke, and during that conversation I picked the 'It's unexpected' heart line, with no intention of romancing Anders in the game. I'm now in act 3, and Anders hasn't made one single solitary move on Hawke since that conversation, and I've not once had to click a broken heart. I had max'd out friendship by the end of act 1 (which is incredibly easy to do with Anders - even with the extra 15 rivalry hit if you'd picked the broken heart in fact), and his relationship is playing out as I'd expect - we're friends, nothing more. The line Hawke actually says when you click the 'It's unexpected' heart is "It doesn't mean I want you to stop". A player can read this in two ways: it could mean Hawke is interested in Anders; or it could mean Hawke likes knowing people find him attractive, but isn't particularly attracted to Anders either way. If you use your imagination (which is what you're encouraged to do in a roleplaying game) you can align that line with a gay Hawke or a straight Hawke. You just have to get over yourself.

[moilami]

Tommy6860 wrote...

moilami wrote...

Artoz96 wrote...

JediMB wrote...

Artoz96 wrote...

You like all being bi? Ok. But I want a good fantasy game. I dont want to think that this guy that covers me is gay. I cant feel like he is my close friend or brother in arms becouse of he is gay and may think that I am found of him.

I dont against gay characters, it was ok with Zevran cause I could easely avoid him. But in DA2 the only 2h warrior is Fenris and the only healer is Anders.

And you are right we dont have choise in our feelings and that is why I dont want gay to hit on me.

what is this i dont even

I'm sorry to have to break this to you, but this is homophobia and prejudice.

Otherwise, you'd have to be uncomfortable with being around female characters that you aren't interested in either, since one apparently can't be a "close friend or sister in arms" if she might possibly have feelings for you.

No need to sorry, If I need to fu... with gay so that you consider me tolerate person, than no, I am a homophob. By the way, tell me please, doctor, what is it "homophobia"? Not long ago thougnt that gay person is sick.  Now nobody think so. Now we have another situation when the person that dont like gays is sick.  Dont you thing it quite... wrong?

Tell me doc, so i dont like gays and dont want them to deal with me... what harm i dealt to them by this? How I insult gay person?

Exactly. This whole thing is so sick and absurd I don't remember seeing anything comparable.

People say you have to be fine with gays advancing on you and trying to use your exit only tube, else you are being yelled hard of being a homophobic. So you have to prove you are not a homophobic by letting people hit you at will and use your exit only tube.

If you want to say to those people "get lost scum" one person here begun to have fantasies how he would kill you if you would do it again when asked to not do it again.

WTF?

It seems you are mixing political correctness with simple human nature. You tend to harp on having to be PC as to demonize the nature of it all. Yet while I hang out with some of my male friends and they make unruly gestures at their female counterparts, yet somehow that can be overlooked; Oh the irony of it all.

I have heard it is not being overlooked by women. I have heard they can find it very offensive and disturbing. But I have heard also that some women enjoy if they get attention from males.

However, in any case I haven't yelled to any women they are heterophobic or manphobic if they don't enjoy of the unwanted attention they get. I can't even imagine that happening from my side.

It seems you don't understand anything.

[Russalka]

Quote pyramids are spam.

[moilami]

Russalka wrote...

Homosexual people are everywhere, homosexual people are flirtatious. Just like heterosexual people.

Get over it.

Your personal experiences in the world do not mean that every single gay person is like that. Anders has to be rejected, fine. It could happen in real life.

Wanting to shield oneself from all the gayness of the world is naive. It is like trying to shield oneself from any sexuality, a certain skin colour or a whole gender. Just say no, if people are still persistent, it is their problem, not the problem of a whole group.

I for sure have a problem if a man keeps harassing me sexually. I have heard even hetero women having problems if a man keeps harassing them sexually.

[Russalka]

moilami wrote...
I for sure have a problem if a man keeps harassing me sexually. I have heard even hetero women having problems if a man keeps harassing them sexually.

This is off-topic.
Anders is not harassing you.
If someone harasses you, do something about it. Not complain about the cruelty of the world and the vileness of all homosexual people. Is it the whole group's fault if some gay people get away with harassing people? That black people can easily dish out the race card? No. It is the problem of a few extreme people.

[sleepyowlet]

Caralampio wrote...

The confusing thing about the Anders "hit" is that actually one of the choices appears to be an opt-out, but you still get -15. Maybe it was intended as a zero effect choice, but it's a glitch? And now they can't fix it because it would seem like they're giving in...

Of course, the guy is miffed, you just told him that you don't want to make the beast with two backs with him. The -15 are justified. Nobody likes being shot down, no matter how gentle you're being. And that Isabela for example doesn't give you rival points when you turn her down, is because she's just offering casual sex. Anders has feelings for your character, thus he's feeling hurt. I don't think it's a glitch.

[moilami]

Russalka wrote...

moilami wrote...
I for sure have a problem if a man keeps harassing me sexually. I have heard even hetero women having problems if a man keeps harassing them sexually.

This is off-topic.
Anders is not harassing you.
If someone harasses you, do something about it. Not complain about the cruelty of the world and the vileness of all homosexual people. Is it the whole group's fault if some gay people get away with harassing people? That black people can easily dish out the race card? No. It is the problem of a few extreme people.

Now that sounds much better. No more sick stuff "bend or ur homophobic". You have learned your lesson.

[Russalka]

moilami wrote...
Now that sounds much better. No more sick stuff "bend or ur homophobic". You have learned your lesson.

I have not implied anything of that sort. That was completely your own idea.
I'll have you know that anal sex is done by more heterosexual people than homosexual ones.

And lessons? Why was it so difficult for you to understand that you cannot generalise people from a few rambling comments in these forums and bad experiences in real life?

Modifié par Russalka, 25 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[PlumPaul93]

moilami wrote...

Russalka wrote...

moilami wrote...
I for sure have a problem if a man keeps harassing me sexually. I have heard even hetero women having problems if a man keeps harassing them sexually.

This is off-topic.
Anders is not harassing you.
If someone harasses you, do something about it. Not complain about the cruelty of the world and the vileness of all homosexual people. Is it the whole group's fault if some gay people get away with harassing people? That black people can easily dish out the race card? No. It is the problem of a few extreme people.

Now that sounds much better. No more sick stuff "bend or ur homophobic". You have learned your lesson.

LOL this thread is great for some laughs. Really I'll be able to sweep this through the rug by just saying it was poor character design. Sucks but hopefully we'll have better choices/options in DA3.

Modifié par PlumPaul82393, 25 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[Tom Jolly]

Gaider was right to blast them.    Kudows to the writers, kudows to bioware and EA for taking THIS risk.  

[moilami]

Russalka wrote...

moilami wrote...
Now that sounds much better. No more sick stuff "bend or ur homophobic". You have learned your lesson.

I have not implied anything of that sort. That was completely your own idea.
I'll have you know that anal sex is done by more heterosexual people than homosexual ones.

And lessons? Why was it so difficult for you to understand that you cannot generalise people from a few rambling comments in these forums and bad experiences in real life?

I have seen tons of gay people and therefore have first hand knowledge of that they are people like heteros are people. And even if I would had never seen them I would had known that world is not black & white.

However it took years and finally four threads of similar topic for you to understand some basics things. Of that I feel sorry.

Anyway, I am off to buy some ice scream and later play the Witcher. Adventures await!


Edit: You will see today my signature changing. Maybe.

Modifié par moilami, 25 mars 2011 - 03:21 .

[Russalka]

moilami wrote...
However it took years and finally four threads of similar topic for you to understand some basics things. Of that I feel sorry.

It is wonderful how you claim to know everything about me. We have not discussed anything for a while.
Are you mistaking me for somebody else?

But I hope you are gone. Remember the bull allegory and proverb? I hope so.

And to get back on-topic. I still do not understand how people can still complain. Basically heterosexual people have five love interests, homosexual ones have four. No one has forced Bioware, it was their own decision. Flirting happens in real life. Odd things appear, like a lot of people turning out to be bisexual.

People can complain, people will always complain. People will cry injustice when there isn't an equal amount of love interests, they will do so if something else happens. Anyone and everyone. I think I have stepped into the generalisation bandwagon myself now.

Modifié par Russalka, 25 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[TheBroodfather]

 Bioware needs to stop pandering. I don't know how it is with everyone else, but in real life I can't just take any person I hang out with regularly to bed just by selecting the dialogue option with the heart picture beside it. Odds are, Hawke would run into at least one person of the same sex who was heterosexual, or a person of the opposite sex who just plain wasn't into him/her.

Modifié par TheBroodfather, 25 mars 2011 - 03:57 .

[Mlaar]

ms_sunlight wrote...

Mlaar wrote...

ms_sunlight wrote...

Anders is also upset and gives you rivalry points if you knock him back as LadyHawke.  There is no neutral response knocking someone back - they've put themselves on the line to express an interest so it is realistic that they be a little hurt / put out if refused.

Actually his reaction is unreaslistic sure you have spoken to him with mutal respect as a man friends with another man would but nowhere have you done anything to lead him to the conclusion you want a relationship with a male infact the straight male is likely have shown only intrest in females so him approaching you beinging politley rebuked should not have recieved the reaction it did.. It actually paints homosexual men in a negative light saying that a person is required to walk on eggshells when responding to an advance. It was handled wrong as simple as that 

That's the point - a person *does* have to walk on eggshells when rebuffing an advance, regardless of the genders involved.  If you play as LadyHawke, Anders comes on to you out of the blue even if you have never flirted with him - he obviously just fancies you - and is miffed if you knock him back.  I have had this experience in my real life and it played out as realistic to me.

Look at the videos of that scene - there are plenty on YouTube - and compare the ManHawke and LadyHawke versions.  They play out remarkably similarly.

This is where we differ in opinions I have been and always will be a person who is honest and open and never had anyone show a negative outlook when ive declined thier advances yet still hold them in highest regard as close friends.
Anders acts like he's met you for the first time, when it may represent several months before he comes onto you by that time he would have known which side you are batting for so throwing unwanted advances seemed childish immature and unwanted. I found his whole romance farcical at best and if they had let the player initiated it then you wouldnt have the bad vibes given, people who wanted that style of relationship could have been happy and those with no intrest would not be made to feel uncomfortable, at the end of the day this is a game you play for fun it is not real life so it shouldnt be mandatory to put the player in the situation. I do not have any problems with homosexual romances being put into a game I do however have a problem with the way they are implemented

[Russalka]

Irrelephant.

Modifié par Russalka, 25 mars 2011 - 04:08 .