2875 réponses à ce sujet

[Aris_Khandr]

slimgrin wrote...

The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

And yet having half of your romantic options as an entirely different species is totally okay?

[mesmerizedish]

JironGhrad wrote...

I've been following (and commented a couple times) throughout the entire 49 pages. The vast majority of self-identifed straight people, who've responded, have all said they don't want the options removed from the game entirely. That's not dismissing anyone.

That's not been my impression, but I haven't read every post, so if that's what you say is going on, then I believe you.

The request for a preference toggle isn't "homophobic"

In and of itself? No, it's not. It's just stupid. But the reasoning behind that request is "I don't want to see gay people." That is homphobic.

If we have an option for "strictly-straight" there could (and I think should be) an option to also play "strictly-gay". All the majority has asked for is the option to "enjoy the game their way" . I think we can all reasonably agree that this an ideal option regardless of gender or sexual preference... yes?

I disagree stongly, because that would be poor writing. That would be molding characters like clay to suit the player. I am perfectly alright with male characters making advances toward my lesbian character. I'm just saying that the same tolerance come from the other side. If they don't like it, then tough.

The fact that the players (again, regardless of gender orientation) are being called intollerant and slapped with labels for wanting the option to play their way is, in fact, victimization.

Not when "playing their way" involves expunging an entire demographic from their game. That's just silly.

The fact that gender-preference lobbyists spend all that money trying to pressure that same majority to change all the laws completely fails to explain a key point. That point is that if it was a viable answer, "why hasn't it happened before in the last 3,000 years?" If it was openly practiced by Alexander the Great and his armies, and the Greeks, and the Romans... why didn't they have "equal-rights" built into their laws? Alexander ruled practically the entire known world in his day... he was too busy to sit down and write a little note? "Hey... gay guys can marry, have fun." Surely not...

Nothing in Greek or Roman law said that homosexuals couldn't marry, either. Marriage and romance were not thought of in the same way that they are today.

[Pacifien]

slimgrin wrote...
The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

Our world is not the world the characters live in either.

[Seifz]

JironGhrad wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but what's going on is that most people here have been dismissing homosexuals and using the fact that heterosexuals are the majority to justify that. That the "majority" has somehow decided it's more fun to play the victim and claim that they're the ones being dismissed is silly.

I've been following (and commented a couple times) throughout the entire 49 pages. The vast majority of self-identifed straight people, who've responded, have all said they don't want the options removed from the game entirely. That's not dismissing anyone. The request for a preference toggle isn't "homophobic". If we have an option for "strictly-straight" there could (and I think should be) an option to also play "strictly-gay". All the majority has asked for is the option to "enjoy the game their way" . I think we can all reasonably agree that this an ideal option regardless of gender or sexual preference... yes?

No.  It's BioWare's game and they're going to create the game that they want to create.  You're free to tell them that you don't like it and you're free to not purchase it.  But to insist that they add toggles to turn off everything that you don't like is absurd.  You don't get to toggle out the gay characters in books and movies, do you?  Can you toggle out the gay people in real life?  Of course not.  If a character is gay, he's gay.  That's all there is to it.  If your Hawke doesn't like his gay advances, you tell him so.

The fact that the players (again, regardless of gender orientation) are being called intollerant and slapped with labels for wanting the option to play their way is, in fact, victimization. The fact that gender-preference lobbyists spend all that money trying to pressure that same majority to change all the laws completely fails to explain a key point. That point is that if it was a viable answer, "why hasn't it happened before in the last 3,000 years?" If it was openly practiced by Alexander the Great and his armies, and the Greeks, and the Romans... why didn't they have "equal-rights" built into their laws? Alexander ruled practically the entire known world in his day... he was too busy to sit down and write a little note? "Hey... gay guys can marry, have fun." Surely not...

Uh, we also had slaves, ritual killings, and socially acceptable rape for thousands of years.  Are you saying that our laws against these things are not viable because those same laws didn't exist under Alexander?  Really?

[mesmerizedish]

slimgrin wrote...

The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

You're right. That's not the world we live in. But that is the world that they've created for their fantasy-RPG.

[EDIT] :ph34r:d by Pacifien

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 25 mars 2011 - 06:31 .

[Lord Sullivan]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Lord Sullivan wrote...

Russalka wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...
Nature shows us the answer: if everyone was homosexual, we'd be extinct by now. And yes, debates with heterophobics are just as productive as debates between religious and non-religious people

Everyone can't be homosexual. It is impossible. Heterosexuals will always outnumber homosexuals.

But using that "logic" to think of homosexuals as overall lesser is a fallacy.

I don't think anyone is saying that Gay peeps are lesser(If I got your meaning of lesser right) BUt I believe that
the Heteros are mostly trying to counter a dismissal based on the fact that we're the largest of both groups.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying, but what's going on is that most people here have been dismissing homosexuals and using the fact that heterosexuals are the majority to justify that. That the "majority" has somehow decided it's more fun to play the victim and claim that they're the ones being dismissed is silly.

The fact that when an hetero says something in the line of "I don't want to be forced to experience a gay interaction and/or a gay encounter in my/a game" is met with "What you think there should only be heterosexuals in games? are you so insecure with your sexuality? HOMOPHOBIC!!" is yeah, a dismissal of the wish of an individual that represents a good portion of a large demographic.

Have you tried replying something like "Well since I'm gay, I like having the opportunity to experience it, but maybe
a suggestion to the devs that they should make it so that companions repond to the sexual orientation of the player if that is his/her wish?"

I'm confident that in general such threads would probably have less of a chance to turn messy.

Meeting disagreement of ones contraversial sexual orientation with less agression and taunting is key.

I have seen it happen quite a few times with a few wise Gay peeps.

Modifié par Lord Sullivan, 25 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[slimgrin]

Pacifien wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

Our world is not the world the characters live in either.

Our world shapes how the player relates to the game, an unnavoidable fact of any artform. 

If I were gay, I might consider Bioware's solution a rather unconvincing one, that I'm being catered to. That's about as much as I can say though, cause I haven't played DA2.

Modifié par slimgrin, 25 mars 2011 - 06:40 .

[FellowerOfOdin]

Russalka wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

LeVay, Simon: Queer Science: The Use and Abuse of Research into Homosexuality

...among others.

I thought LaVey only proved that the whole subject is ambiguous, that either side of the argument, choice or not a choice, has no substantial proof.

I read the entire article and wrote a term paper using it among other sources...

Regarding the latest posts: I want to further insist on the fact that most of the people who favor straight romances in this thread, including me of course, have no problem with gay romances in the game. As stated multiple times before, it was perfectly done in DA:O where sexual orientation was more or less realistically divided among the group. Zevhran was an awesome gay character - why? ...because it fit to him. You really knew that the writers did not just throw his ******- / bisexuality over him in the end like they did with everyone in DA:RtP, it felt like his sexual orientation was part of his entire character, it just felt genuine.

The way how Bioware did it in DA:RtP was just cheap and destroys immersion / credibility for the characters. It's a cheap way to try to cater to everyone and it's insulting to use such a way just to sell more copies of a game. 

Yes, I killed Zevhran every time but on one playthrough because he was annoying to have around and he was clichée...and he tried to kill me. But I still think that his concept was done pretty well. 

Anders however is a criminal. He is a mass murderer and when you make his personal quest and he tries to kiss you, he is also guilty of sexual harassment if you are straight. And yeah...he is a mass murderer. He killed children and women. Seriously? ... has nothing to do with his homosexuality though 

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

You're right. That's not the world we live in. But that is the world that they've created for their fantasy-RPG.

[EDIT] :ph34r:d by Pacifien

Well this sure isn´t the world i met in the first game, their vision is now of a world full of bisexuals tendencies, wow just wow... carry on.

[fchopin]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

I agree with the OP.

A better way to do it would have been to have characters with a set sexuality that was part of their character, not characters that change depending upon whether you play a male or female Hawke.

I agree with this.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

fchopin wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

I agree with the OP.

A better way to do it would have been to have characters with a set sexuality that was part of their character, not characters that change depending upon whether you play a male or female Hawke.

I agree with this.

I agree too, besides we have Anders who was straight in DA:O Awakening and now is Bi? rofl...

[mesmerizedish]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Well this sure isn´t the world i met in the first game, their vision is now of a world full of bisexuals tendencies, wow just wow... carry on.

If you think what you see in DAII is at all different from Origins, then you weren't looking at hard enough. Or you're looking too hard at DAII. Either/or.

[Angry_Bitter]

Homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, but the Bible and/or Quran says so guys. David Gaider is damned to an eternity of hell and damnation for this homosex tripe.

[moilami]

Aris_Khandr wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

The reason is - and don't take this the wrong way - that's not the world we live in. Having half my team as switch-hitters doesn't seem realistic, it doesn't help character development.

And yet having half of your romantic options as an entirely different species is totally okay?

It is fine in sci-fi setting. Aliens in ME are comparable to humans, just look different.

That said, I romanced Ashley after thinking about the choises for about one month. My reasoning for it was that I have more in common with her than with some Alien. Tali was though the first woman I went


Edit: And in DA I played a Dwarf and lolled while romancing both Leliana and Morrigan. Was fine for me, I just bet it would had not been so fine for them because of my race.

Leliana WTF by the way. "Show some respect to us."

Modifié par moilami, 25 mars 2011 - 06:52 .

[Lord Sullivan]

Angry_Bitter wrote...

Homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, but the Bible and/or Quran says so guys. David Gaider is damned to an eternity of hell and damnation for this homosex tripe.

I hope you're kidding... seriouly

Modifié par Lord Sullivan, 25 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[solstickan]

To all of you who seem to believe that, somehow, making all LIs bi left you with less straight options, John Epler wrote about it earlier in this thread:

JohnEpler wrote...

tanerb123 wrote...

the only reason i am not happy with gay romance is that space could be used for extra straight romance. because i am not happy with isabella and merril

Not really applicable, actually.

Think of it this way - if a character is made available as a romance option for both genders, there are some things that have to change, but in general it is the same character.

Compare this to a brand new character. First, you have to introduce them in the story such that their presence makes sense. Then you have to develop that character, as well as their romance and personal arc. This isn't even taking into account the fact that each follower is at least a month and a half of very long days for cinematic design to work on, or the art assets required, or the character balancing with talents and such.

It is a vast difference in effort required. Heck, if romances were removed entirely (for both genders), you might save enough time to build one more companion. Who would also be non-romanceable.

And to those who say that them all being bi is unrealistic:

Firstly, what indicates they would be straight? They are all outsiders and have few friends, Hawke being (one of) their closest. Why would they not be drawn to this characterisitic and strong person being the broken persons that they are?

Secondly, it's a game. None of it is real. Why would anyone want to deprave another the chance to enjoy it fully? It is childish, selfish, and incredibly nonproductive.

[v_ware]

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

I agree with the OP.

A better way to do it would have been to have characters with a set sexuality that was part of their character, not characters that change depending upon whether you play a male or female Hawke.

I agree with this.

I agree too, besides we have Anders who was straight in DA:O Awakening and now is Bi? rofl...

He never stated his sexuality in DA:O.

[Aris_Khandr]

moilami wrote...

Tali was though the first woman I went

And that's rather my point.  Tali is easily the most likable character in Mass Effect.  And there is no option to romance her for us.  So we get Merrill as an option in DA2, and suddenly everyone is like "It's not right that everyone is bi!"  Well the hell with you, why can't I get the likable characters for once?

[JironGhrad]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The request for a preference toggle isn't "homophobic"

In and of itself? No, it's not. It's just stupid. But the reasoning behind that request is "I don't want to see gay people." That is homphobic.

If we have an option for "strictly-straight" there could (and I think should be) an option to also play "strictly-gay". All the majority has asked for is the option to "enjoy the game their way" . I think we can all reasonably agree that this an ideal option regardless of gender or sexual preference... yes?

I disagree stongly, because that would be poor writing. That would be molding characters like clay to suit the player. I am perfectly alright with male characters making advances toward my lesbian character. I'm just saying that the same tolerance come from the other side. If they don't like it, then tough.

The fact that the players (again, regardless of gender orientation) are being called intollerant and slapped with labels for wanting the option to play their way is, in fact, victimization.

Not when "playing their way" involves expunging an entire demographic from their game. That's just silly.

The fact that gender-preference lobbyists spend all that money trying to pressure that same majority to change all the laws completely fails to explain a key point. That point is that if it was a viable answer, "why hasn't it happened before in the last 3,000 years?" If it was openly practiced by Alexander the Great and his armies, and the Greeks, and the Romans... why didn't they have "equal-rights" built into their laws? Alexander ruled practically the entire known world in his day... he was too busy to sit down and write a little note? "Hey... gay guys can marry, have fun." Surely not...

Nothing in Greek or Roman law said that homosexuals couldn't marry, either. Marriage and romance were not thought of in the same way that they are today.

In response to points 1, 2 and 3: I haven't seen many people say "take gay out of the game" mostly they just seem to desire to feel comfortable while playing. Such a toggle would simply make Anders "not" approach you first and maybe turn off the male prostitute's conversation tree. By the same token, the alternate toggle of "gay-only" would simply keep the male characters from hitting on the female Hawke. Hardly the travesty you've suggested. Again, the majority has NOT suggested removing any demographic from the game, just the option to avoid a few dialog trees.

Greco-Roman law actually is the foundation of all western law today, and is derived from the earlier Code of Hammurabi. They did, in fact, prohibit same-sex marriages and the documents reflecting that date back several hundred years BC. Indeed the only evidence to the contrary (that can be cited authoritatively) is in the case of the Emperor Nero and, in Rome at that time, the Emperor was not limited by the law that applied to the rest of the Empire and doesn't reflect the common perception of the same at that time.

Seifz wrote...

Uh, we also had slaves, ritual killings, and socially acceptable rape for thousands of years.  Are you saying that our laws against these things are not viable because those same laws didn't exist under Alexander?  Really?

Indeed, I'm not saying that. What I am saying is this: "If such things were freely practiced in past, the laws of that timeframe would reflect it." The fact that they don't reflect that (indeed before 200 BC, they were putting men to death for male on male sexual relations), is an indication there are actually some things that are more important than individual personal desire, in the context of the majority world where we live.

[Lord Sullivan]

solstickan wrote...

To all of you who seem to believe that, somehow, making all LIs bi left you with less straight options, John Epler wrote about it earlier in this thread:

JohnEpler wrote...

tanerb123 wrote...

the only reason i am not happy with gay romance is that space could be used for extra straight romance. because i am not happy with isabella and merril

Not really applicable, actually.

Think of it this way - if a character is made available as a romance option for both genders, there are some things that have to change, but in general it is the same character.

Compare this to a brand new character. First, you have to introduce them in the story such that their presence makes sense. Then you have to develop that character, as well as their romance and personal arc. This isn't even taking into account the fact that each follower is at least a month and a half of very long days for cinematic design to work on, or the art assets required, or the character balancing with talents and such.

It is a vast difference in effort required. Heck, if romances were removed entirely (for both genders), you might save enough time to build one more companion. Who would also be non-romanceable.

And to those who say that them all being bi is unrealistic:

Firstly, what indicates they would be straight? They are all outsiders and have few friends, Hawke being (one of) their closest. Why would they not be drawn to this characterisitic and strong person being the broken persons that they are?

Secondly, it's a game. None of it is real. Why would anyone want to deprave another the chance to enjoy it fully? It is childish, selfish, and incredibly nonproductive.

The way it looks is they don't think, they know.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Tali is the most likable character? Uhm...not for me. I don't like talking to a robot for the entire game.

[moilami]

Lord Sullivan wrote...

Angry_Bitter wrote...

Homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, but the Bible and/or Quran says so guys. David Gaider is damned to an eternity of hell and damnation for this homosex tripe.

I hope your kidding... seriouly

the typo in that made me lol

[Angry_Bitter]

Lord Sullivan wrote...

Angry_Bitter wrote...

Homosexuality is a sin. Sorry, but the Bible and/or Quran says so guys. David Gaider is damned to an eternity of hell and damnation for this homosex tripe.

I hope your kidding... seriouly

I'm not kidding. And I don't care if your liberal views are causing you to get butthurt over the FACT that homosex is a sin and grossly perverted.

[MoonChildTheUnholy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

MoonChildTheUnholy wrote...

Well this sure isn´t the world i met in the first game, their vision is now of a world full of bisexuals tendencies, wow just wow... carry on.

If you think what you see in DAII is at all different from Origins, then you weren't looking at hard enough. Or you're looking too hard at DAII. Either/or.

Of course its different and i have stated Anders as he was and what he is now, but maybe i´m just looking at so many flaws iin this game at the same time that i´m going insane... might be.