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[moilami]

sleepyowlet wrote...

moilami wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...

moilami wrote...

Certainly went that way. There is no doubts of that. You know it first of all because you have studied Ancient History at university, I hear.


Edit: Especially when she can't even understand how full of parody Ideal State is.

Wait - parody? No. The Ancients kept different forms of literature strictly apart. And everything my professor taught me, and everything I read is nonsense, of course. Yes, I see that now.

Just ... you know, next time I meet the Doctor, I'll just ask him to pop by your house, take you aboard the Tardis and take you to ancient Greece so you can see for yourself. I'll even ask him to leave Captain Jack somewhere else, because you don't like to be hit on by men.

Do you say it was not parody but for real?

Uh... yes? And a lot of philosophers thought it was the greatest thing ever. Scary, innit? Now that I think about it, it sounds a lot like the Qun...

So, you just admitted that you accepted most propeller headed theoretical model of all mighty Big Brother State to be for real.

[catabuca]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Feels to me that in terms of character personality, sexual preference has little impact on the characters where this is a concern. Isabela is bi, so she's not a problem. Anders seems to be bi, too, even if he doesn't say so to a female LI.

But Fenris and Merril ... Fenris doesn't remember anything before getting his markings, so I don't think he's really had that much time to ponder whether he's into guys or girls. And then Hawke comes along ... and it works out fine whether or not Hawke is a guy or a girl.

Fits with Merril as well, I think, since she doesn't seem all that experienced either, and is pretty shy as a person in general.

Sexual preference doesn't have to be a core attribute of a person's personality. Changing it doesn't have to change the personality of a character as a whole. It depends entirely on the character in question, and whether or not this works. It works with Merril and Fenris, imo.

Would it work in future games? Maybe. Depends on what type of characters they're gonna have. I really like the idea, since it gives people a chance to play the game whatever way they want to. And as long as it works fine ... I definitely think it's a good idea.

This is exactly how I feel.

And for Mr Gaider's own words on the static or otherwise nature of the LIs' sexualities, people may want to read this excellent post of his.

[TcheQ]

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

[v_ware]

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

Not true. Look up the Kinsey scale.

[catabuca]

Oh bugger it, since it keeps coming up in here over and over, I'll just quote Mr Gaider from my link:

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely.

So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

Here are all of David's replies from that thread. For those who care. It may (or may not) help clear up some of the back and forths that keep going on in here.

[moilami]

catabuca wrote...

Oh bugger it, since it keeps coming up in here over and over, I'll just quote Mr Gaider from my link:

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And while having four bisexual characters in a group of 6 might be unlikely, it's still more realistic than having characters who are straight or gay depending on the gender of the PC.

I'm sorry, but just to chime in again-- how are we coming to the conclusion that the characters are either straight or gay, exactly? Considering that they don't generally discuss their sexuality with the player, the idea that their sexuality changes seems a bit bizarre when their actions don't. You can decide for yourself what they are-- that is indeed part of the point in leaving it to your interpretation-- but deciding that they are one thing or the other and calling this "not realistic" seems to me to be a little self-serving.

And, yes, they don't discuss their sexuality. Perhaps you'd prefer if they would. It strikes me that the only way some people will be happy is if we had an entire array of characters to romance-- some completely straight, some completely gay with maybe a few canonically bisexual characters for good measure. Enough to be "fair", and all of them covering the complete range of attractions for players of that persuasion.

I don't know about you, but that seems unlikely.

So as I said, we went with simply giving players the option of deciding for themselves, as well as interpreting for themselves. If some people are unhappy that they still didn't get the particular flavor they were looking for-- well, that's just too damned bad. As always, we're never going to be able to provide enough to suit everyone. At least in this case the people that don't like it can be equally unhappy, and I can live with that.

Here are all of David's replies from that thread. For those who care. It may (or may not) help clear up some of the back and forths that keep going on in here.

Ow, have missed another thread of interesting discussions.

Will suck when all these discussions end.

[Apechild]

I am reminded of the phrase "Storm in a teacup."

Considering it's by choice whether you pursue a relationship between your 'Hawke' and the party members then you have, as others have probably pointed out over a dozen times in this thread, the chance to click on a different option in the 'loldialoguewheelofchancesentences'.

The argument over whether BW is just lazy by making all of the characters 'bisexual', that would involve them flirting with characters of the opposite sex whilst being chatted up by the PC of the same sex. Whilst I personally prefer Heterosexual relationships for my PCs, the option for people to have same-sex relationships is fine by me, encouraged even. This is 2011 after all.

Modifié par Apechild, 26 mars 2011 - 06:03 .

[PlumPaul93]

Apechild wrote...

I am reminded of the phrase "Storm in a teacup."

Considering it's by choice whether you pursue a relationship between your 'Hawke' and the party members then you have, as others have probably pointed out over a dozen times in this thread, the chance to click on a different option in the 'loldialoguewheelofchancesentences'.

The argument over whether BW is just lazy by making all of the characters 'bisexual', that would involve them flirting with characters of the opposite sex whilst being chatted up by the PC of the same sex. Whilst I personally prefer Heterosexual relationships for my PCs, the option for people to have same-sex relationships is fine by me, encouraged even. This is 2011 after all.

Thats pretty obvious if you ask me

[TcheQ]

v_ware wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

Not true. Look up the Kinsey scale.

I prefer not to google it.  I will take my friends personal expereince above some vague concept a Bioware person has of gay/straightdom to justify whether writing the same characters' tendency to gayness is flexible.  On a competely differnt topic, how many others guys do you think gay Anders would f... in ten years.  Or gay Fenris?  A lot, i think.  I assume aids is transferable, but i ghuess monkeys don't exist in Thedas for aids to be transferred in the first place

/drunken rant

[sleepyowlet]

moilami wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...


Uh... yes? And a lot of philosophers thought it was the greatest thing ever. Scary, innit? Now that I think about it, it sounds a lot like the Qun...

So, you just admitted that you accepted most propeller headed theoretical model of all mighty Big Brother State to be for real.

He meant it, and a lot of philosophers during medieval times and the Renaissance actually thought it was brilliant, because this model eliminates crime and poverty. You must understand that the concepts of individualism and privacy are very modern ones. People back then didn't think in those terms. If I remember correctly, Rosseau was one of the first philosophers who saw the individual as important.

[v_ware]

TcheQ wrote...

v_ware wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

Not true. Look up the Kinsey scale.

I prefer not to google it.  I will take my friends personal expereince above some vague concept a Bioware person has of gay/straightdom to justify whether writing the same characters' tendency to gayness is flexible.  On a competely differnt topic, how many others guys do you think gay Anders would f... in ten years.  Or gay Fenris?  A lot, i think.  I assume aids is transferable, but i ghuess monkeys don't exist in Thedas for aids to be transferred in the first place

/drunken rant

The Kinsey scale is not made by "a Bioware person." It's a widely accepted scale for ******/hetereosexuality and everything in between.

[Persephone]

Go David Gaider!

I love the romances in DA2. And IMO nobody is forced to be in a romance he doesn't want. And I also can understand if characters are upset if you reject them. I have suffered rejection too, that hurts like hell. (But I now have my Mr. Right XD) Strange how it's all "OMGZ, Anders hit on my MALE Hawke! DRAMA!" and the complaints about Lady Hawke getting it on with Izzy are few and in between.

[TcheQ]

v_ware wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

v_ware wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

Not true. Look up the Kinsey scale.

I prefer not to google it.  I will take my friends personal expereince above some vague concept a Bioware person has of gay/straightdom to justify whether writing the same characters' tendency to gayness is flexible.  On a competely differnt topic, how many others guys do you think gay Anders would f... in ten years.  Or gay Fenris?  A lot, i think.  I assume aids is transferable, but i ghuess monkeys don't exist in Thedas for aids to be transferred in the first place

/drunken rant

The Kinsey scale is not made by "a Bioware person." It's a widely accepted scale for ******/hetereosexuality and everything in between.

Granted, but the point is: how many people do you know who are gay that agree with that graph.

I know at least 10.  All of them would disagree.  This is just my experience (and hence why I made the statement above).  Which refereeed jounral was the above posted in so I can look up it's references?

[MaximusPhoenix]

TcheQ wrote...

v_ware wrote...

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

Not true. Look up the Kinsey scale.

I prefer not to google it.  I will take my friends personal expereince above some vague concept a Bioware person has of gay/straightdom to justify whether writing the same characters' tendency to gayness is flexible.  On a competely differnt topic, how many others guys do you think gay Anders would f... in ten years.  Or gay Fenris?  A lot, i think.  I assume aids is transferable, but i ghuess monkeys don't exist in Thedas for aids to be transferred in the first place

/drunken rant

You're right, that is a completely different topic not related to this. I don't know why you would even bring up such a topic. I hope you are not suggesting that only homosexuals have aids and that heterosexuals have some kind of magic immunity.

[catabuca]

TcheQ wrote...

Granted, but the point is: how many people do you know who are gay that agree with that graph.

I know at least 10.  All of them would disagree.  This is just my experience (and hence why I made the statement above).  Which refereeed jounral was the above posted in so I can look up it's references?

Well as someone who falls at roughly the 1-2 mark on that graph, I'd be pretty confident to state the opinions of your apparent 10 gay friends don't amount to a hill of beans in the face of the entire gamut of experiences in the world.

Bi-phobia is as real a phenomenon as homophobia, and sadly it exists in the gay community. The reasons for it are numerous, but regardless, to suggest one person's sexuality and feelings aren't real is astonishing. 

But that is not what this thread is about.

To repeat myself from a few pages back, thank you BW for offering as much choice as possible to as many players as possible with this game. I love the game, I love the characters, I love the interactions, and yes, a part of that is that I love the romances in the game. Thank you for your hard work.

[Tirigon]

TcheQ wrote...

That brings up a good point actually, a friend of mine said "you are either straight or gay, there is no inbetween. What is inbetween is competely f*cked up and they don't know what they want, stay away from people like that". But i guess that only applies to humans, of which onloy one is bi, and she fits the above statement just fine. Erm, i think. (not really going to investigat a gay anders plotline)

No offense, but your friend seems to be rather stupid and arrogant, and obviously knows little of people.

Modifié par Tirigon, 26 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[moilami]

sleepyowlet wrote...

moilami wrote...

sleepyowlet wrote...


Uh... yes? And a lot of philosophers thought it was the greatest thing ever. Scary, innit? Now that I think about it, it sounds a lot like the Qun...

So, you just admitted that you accepted most propeller headed theoretical model of all mighty Big Brother State to be for real.

He meant it, and a lot of philosophers during medieval times and the Renaissance actually thought it was brilliant, because this model eliminates crime and poverty. You must understand that the concepts of individualism and privacy are very modern ones. People back then didn't think in those terms. If I remember correctly, Rosseau was one of the first philosophers who saw the individual as important.

Socrates promoted strongly independent critical thinking and individual growth. A hive minded society where "magistrate" consisting of philosophers do all the thinking is very much against what socrates taught.

Socrates hated Ideal Society privileges and elitism so much he proposed free meals with ruling elite as a punishment for himself when he was found guilty of corrupting youth etc., that is promoting individual critical thinking and questioning the authorities instead of hive mind thinking.

Socrates appreciated organised society. However even by then he was a critical thinker who evaluated himself should he try to escape or take the punishent against advice of his friends. So there clearly was concept of Individual and his decision instead of just accepting what the society rules. Since Socrates wanted to do the right thing, and he evaluated the right thing was to take the poison, he did it. 

Plato is not Socrates, but Plato was not stupid either. I just can't believe nonsense in Ideal State was written for real. It is more like mathematics was at those times. Just play with geomethry even if it was considered to be worthless. Write a propeller head book of ideal society and lol as people take it for real.

Dunno, I would make a deal with the devil if I could chat with Socrates and Plato.

I haven't read the Republic since I haven't been able to bother to read hundreds of pages of nonsense.

[TcheQ]

catabuca wrote...

Bi-phobia is as real a phenomenon as homophobia, and sadly it exists in the gay community. The reasons for it are numerous, but regardless, to suggest one person's sexuality and feelings aren't real is astonishing. 

That's an interesting concept that I have not (and could not) been exposed to.  Thanks for sharing

[Tirigon]

moilami is trying really hard to look like he knows nothing of philosophy.

You should heed your statements and stop discussing real life issues.

"Better to be silent and seem a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt"

[moilami]

Tirigon wrote...

moilami is trying really hard to look like he knows nothing of philosophy.

You should heed your statements and stop discussing real life issues.

"Better to be silent and seem a fool, then to speak and remove all doubt"

No, I just enjoyed discussing with that other person. I am very picky. A cherry picker.


Edit: This was not said to put you down however. 

Modifié par moilami, 26 mars 2011 - 07:12 .

[TcheQ]

Tirigon wrote...

No offense, but your friend seems to be rather stupid and arrogant, and obviously knows little of people.

Or she was just young and still embracing her sexuality in a prejudiced world?

If you are going to use adjectives, they need justifications. or it will appear as you are either trolling or don't know what the words you are using imply (I don't want to assume it is either of the latter, but the first, so please provide an explanation of each adjective you used - at least this is what I would ask, if it were myself, rather than someone I knew.  I can't speak for them,.  

As I posted above, despite having numerous friends who are gay, I have not encountered the concept of biphobia before, or perhaps more accurately: I have never perceived it.

My experience of having friends who are gay extends only to the checkbox.  I still make a lot of mistakes around them (like making gay jokes, calling things "gay", laughing uncontrollably at the word homosex) and maybe 5% of them is flaming.  So yeah, not a hollywoodized situation.

ukk, literary jargon

Modifié par TcheQ, 26 mars 2011 - 07:03 .

[Tirigon]

TcheQ wrote...

If you are going to use adjectives, they need justifications.
[...]
so please provide an explanation of each adjective you used

It seems just pretty stupid to think anyone who is attracted to men and women instead of just one is "f*cked up" and you should "stay away" from them.

It is not your business, you shouldn´t judge. Acting otherwise is overstepping your boundaries.

My experience of having friends who are gay extends only to the
checkbox.  I still make a lot of mistakes around them (like making gay
jokes, calling things "gay", laughing uncontrollably at the word
homosex) and maybe 5% of them is flaming.  So yeah, not a hollywoodized
situation.

How is this acting wrong? I don´t see anything wrong with telling gay jokes as long as they are funny ones.
The fact that gays are around just makes it better.
I, for example, only tell jokes about blondes in the presence of blondes:devil:

[moilami]

Persephone wrote...

Go David Gaider!

I love the romances in DA2. And IMO nobody is forced to be in a romance he doesn't want. And I also can understand if characters are upset if you reject them. I have suffered rejection too, that hurts like hell. (But I now have my Mr. Right XD) Strange how it's all "OMGZ, Anders hit on my MALE Hawke! DRAMA!" and the complaints about Lady Hawke getting it on with Izzy are few and in between.

You really think that is strange? Have you thought that everyone is not a bi? So hetero men can see little to no reason to complain if hawt pirate hits them as opposite to Anders.

I have seen people been concerned here of the fact that they have to turn Anders down, that is disappoint him.

[Tirigon]

moilami wrote...

I have seen people been concerned here of the fact that they have to turn Anders down, that is disappoint him.

It is odd that people who absolutely hate "teh ghey" and everything associated with it would shy back from insulting a gay´s feelings by rejecting him:D

Modifié par Tirigon, 26 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[moilami]

Tirigon wrote...

moilami wrote...

I have seen people been concerned here of the fact that they have to turn Anders down, that is disappoint him.

It is odd that people who absolutely hate "teh ghey" and everything associated with it would shy back from insulting a gay´s feelings by rejecting him:D

Maybe they don't hate. It looks to be more like an illusion certain group of haters here want to maintain.